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T

tdh

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Hey there, in thinking through the standard request for knife advice, I thought it might be more interesting to hear how you all would go about building your quiver if you had to do it all over again. Take the question any way you want -- perhaps you'd look for cheaper blades because you ruined a few sharpening, or maybe you'd go big for a few top-shelf blades early on, or maybe you'd never buy something sight unseen or from a particular vendor, or maybe you bought a bunch of blades that looked good but were impractical, etc. Anyway, just hoping to get some interesting lessons learned, and some practical advice.

As to particular knife advice, I'm hoping to find a Gyuto, Nakiri, small knife combo that would meet the needs described below. I have or plan on getting a Martiini fillet knife, Robert Herder peeling knife, Tojiro bread knife and Tojiro kitchen shears, as these are perfectly functional for my purposes and spare my budget for the other items. I have a Shun chef knife and paring knife that I'd keep for guest usage and to continue practice sharpening, but will otherwise hope the gyuto-nakiri-small knife combo will be my daily drivers.
  1. Style? Japanese
  2. Steel? Carbon clad in stainless, though open to some powdered steel in the lineup
  3. Handle? Japanese (d-shaped, round, or octagonal) or hybrid
  4. Grip? Either, I'm flexible
  5. Length? Gyuto 210mm, Nakiri 160-180mm, small knife up to 150mm. For the small knife, we're open to paring, ko-bunka, ko-bocho, or other type.
  6. Use cases? We're very active home cooks, so this is not a professional environment. We eat >85% veggies, so the Nakiri is the most important one to get right. The Gyuto would be used for slicing proteins, and jack of all trades. The small knife is another jack of all trades, but would ideally focus on fine board work with bonus points if it can de-bone small proteins (chicken, fish). It's highly likely that my wife would end up using the smaller knife as a mini-chef knife.
  7. Care? Paid service to start, until I'm more comfortable on whetstones.
  8. Budget? Up to $300 a knife, if sufficiently confident that it'll be at least a 10 year knife. But lord knows I don't want to spend that much, so am gladly happy to follow the collective wisdom to a cheaper knife.
  9. Other? Stylistically, we don't need fancy damascus or other beauty marks, but ideally fit and finish should be high.
We want to support craftsman, so not looking for factory-made. Some producers we've been looking at include:
  • Takeda -- Particularly like their Nakiri and collection of small knives. Gyuto seems like a weird shape, and would like to get my hands on that and/or their Sasanoha to see if it'll work for us.
  • Watanabe -- Mainly interested in the Nakiri Pro, but perhaps their Gyuto as well. I would be interested in thoughts about where to upgrade the handle or if this could be DIY. Any in-depth comparisons between this and the Takeda Nakiri would be much appreciated.
  • Masakage Koishi AS -- Seems like a solid line all the way through, but don't want to be boring and just buy all from the same provider. The Ko-Bunka seems like a good possibility for the small knife, and the Gyuto looks good too.
  • Anryu -- Same as above.
  • Shibata -- Super interesting in their grind and sharpening, and am thinking the Gyuto would be a really interesting contrast with either Takeda/Watanabe Nakiri. Although generally aiming for carbon clad, his R2 collection could be a good fit for the small knife in particular and would be interested to hear what people prefer--clad carbon or R2.
  • Others -- Yoshimitsu, Konosuke, Takamura (don't love the Western handle), Ikazuchi, Gesshin, Yamamoto (but $$$)
Finally, if anyone knows of a reputable proprietor of Japanese knives in the Seattle area, it'd be great to be able to hold a few of these before making any decisions. Thanks in advance for all the advice.
 
In your general area there is Epicurean Edge - great store. They carry none of the lines you mention. However, they do have Wakui, Yoshikane, and other good makers. I have bought both Wakui and Yoshikane there...some of my best bang-for-buck knives that can hold their own with almost anything I have.
 
Lots of your choices are in my collection. Excellent mostly modestly priced knives that provide great performance. I don’t see any mistakes in your list. I’d just dive in. I don’t know about knife dealers in Seattle but Vancouver has a couple of excellent dealers in Knifewear and AI&OM. Also Kevin Kent has published a great book on the subject which will answer a lot of questions. Here’s a link.

https://knifewear.com/products/the-knifenerd-guide-to-japanese-knives
 
As an aside, I find it interesting to see Anryu mentioned a fair bit now...never really happened before.

I have an Anryu nakiri and it is probably the worst knife I own. Terrible fit and finish, and rusts like crazy. No patina can stop it from rusting. Would never buy again.
 
Brian Weekley said:
Lots of your choices are in my collection. Excellent mostly modestly priced knives that provide great performance. I don’t see any mistakes in your list. I’d just dive in. I don’t know about knife dealers in Seattle but Vancouver has a couple of excellent dealers in Knifewear and AI&OM. Also Kevin Kent has published a great book on the subject which will answer a lot of questions. Here’s a link.

https://knifewear.com/products/the-knifenerd-guide-to-japanese-knives
Click to expand...

Of these 2, I prefer Knifewear (I'm in Vancouver, and unrelated to these vendors...just a customer). And Knifewear does stock Takeda, Masakage, and Shibata from the OP. Also they have a Masakage sale once a year with discounts across the lines...cannot remember what month but maybe in the spring?
 
Hmmmmm ... I have several of Anryu’s knives in my collection. I can’t say that my experience matches yours but then my knives are all of his Karouchi Damascus white #2 blades. Anryu is one of the founders of the Takefu Knife Village and seems well thought of. Then again like most things YMMV. Kurosaki isn’t in the list and makes some nice knives as well.
 
Epicurean in Kirkland prob has the largest selection in the seattle area. The knife store in pikes place seems to have the full range of tojiros. Uwajimaya has full range for Mac knives. I think you'd have to travel to van BC or Portland to have a chance of finding some of the ones you're listed though
 
My experience with the Tojiro Shears compels me to suggest “Silky Chef X Pro” instead. They can be found for about $40.

I was involved in outfitting a Sushi/Raw Bar station last year. Outfitted the station with Tojiro scissors for AK Crab and Shrimp Cocktail prep. High volume situation. I brought in both versions of the Tojiro shears (black handle sets and “stainless” sets). Aside from not being very comfortable in use, they ended up rusty (abused I’m sure) and they’re not quite powerful enough.

The Silky shears, on the other hand are very impressive. We use them across 5 locations and they’re nearly indestructible. They’ve got a good shape for more detailed work yet lend plenty of leverage for heavy shells (lobster) & small bones, and don’t blister your fingers nearly as quickly. Ours are heavily used/abused and I recommend these with confidence. One drawback however: they are riveted together. Bummer but IME with these, I’ve found no frustration to result.
 
Considering it seems you may have some need to work on sharpening skills, I might suggest you skip the Nakiri for now and use part of those funds for “better” or more sharpening supplies. Don’t skimp on the stones! It would be good to have a bit of a flexible over-budget to try different things to find your preferences. Gyuto can do everything well and unless you have prior experience, it might confuse your progress to have another knife that does the same stuff, to learn simultaneously.

Regarding kitchen tools in particular, comfort and confidence impact joy of use and effectiveness/efficiency immensely. For that reason, I have learned through the years that nothing substitutes for wisdom gained through experience. I suggest you try as many different things as possible and change/upgrade as you grow. With sharpening, most folks are prone to mistakes in the early going. It may benefit to set a goal and upgrade once you reach a certain level of proficiency on the stones.

You may also find a particular passion (affliction) that haunts many on this forum, which is: the love of the character and the shaping of the steel(s). In this case, you may find yourself wanting more, especially when you gain the skills to do whatever you want to do with (and to) the knife. So be aware that when you find great stuff and skills improve, it keeps getting better as you continue to upgrade or try new stuff.

The good news is that most all the preferred recommendations carry resale value. So maybe focus on buying something(s) you can resell. And, since I buy knives to use as tools in the kitchen, I strongly enjoy buying and using pre-owned knives.

In summation, instead of focusing on things that will be in your kit for 10yrs (any legitimate steel at whatever price point will far surpass 10yrs), focus on getting a good “big knife” and a good “small knife.” Plus plenty of sharpening supplies and an upgrade fund for when you hit your goals. Stay flexible and remember the only right answer is your answer, once you’ve made many mistakes and built the experience to know how to answer your own original question.
 
SilverSwarfer said:
Considering it seems you may have some need to work on sharpening skills, I might suggest you skip the Nakiri for now and use part of those funds for “better” or more sharpening supplies. Don’t skimp on the stones! It would be good to have a bit of a flexible over-budget to try different things to find your preferences. Gyuto can do everything well and unless you have prior experience, it might confuse your progress to have another knife that does the same stuff, to learn simultaneously.

Regarding kitchen tools in particular, comfort and confidence impact joy of use and effectiveness/efficiency immensely. For that reason, I have learned through the years that nothing substitutes for wisdom gained through experience. I suggest you try as many different things as possible and change/upgrade as you grow. With sharpening, most folks are prone to mistakes in the early going. It may benefit to set a goal and upgrade once you reach a certain level of proficiency on the stones.
Click to expand...
Plus one on this. Buy the stones you need and the equipment to go with it. Any money you have left over, buy the best gyuto you can.
 
If your looking for knives that you'll be happy with "long term" then start with knives that experienced users like and don't go with lower cost "starter knives". Starter knives will be good quality compared to their western mass produced counterparts but they are knives you will be more likely to want to move on from in a few years. To me these are knives <$150 - i.e. Tojiro DP is a good starter knife for the money but after a little experience you'll want to move on from it.
To me, the $200+ range is a good place to start if you want knives to keep long term and have good resale value should you get something you don't jive with to start.
 
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If I could do it over, I would research a ton first and start to buy second. Luckily for me, I only made a few mistakes which I will be living with as those knives have very limited market appeal.

It’s a great hobby. You also need an understanding other half. Mine is a pastry chef so that helps a bit when the knives keep rolling in.
 
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...I'd go slow, try the knives that you buy for a while before letting them go.
...Keep the knives that actually work for you, not those that look cool or have some quality that you think you like or are popular.
...try highly recommended knives and find out what YOU like, it's a learning process, highly personal, like taste.
...some of my favorite knives are rather inexpensive, some cost quite a bit more.
 
Probably would have skipped the 8 years of shuns. There was a moment back when I was in grad school when one of the people in Northwestern Cutlery (in Chicago) was recommending that I try such and such a knife, but somehow I bought a Shun instead. In retrospect, that was one of those all important moments, like in a movie where famous actor A makes a fateful decision to betray famous actor B for some lowly monetary gain, and then famous actor A has to live with the shame for the rest of his life.
 
Yea, although I think mine weren’t sharp because I wasn’t sharpening them, not because they were Shuns. Should have learned how to sharpen sooner, but it took getting good knives to motivate me to do so. Definitely spent too long sending my Shuns out to be sharpened by someone with a powered wheel and not many skills, and thinking that smashing knives on a ceramic rod Gordon Ramsay style was beneficial.
 
I kind of regret not looking up the blacksmith of the knives I brought more and not looking around more here before purchasing. Shigeki Tanaka makes great blades but the final finish can be really lacking depending on the vendor. I also later, found out it would of been cheaper to buy from KnS and it would have had a better final finish.

I would recommend Shigeki Tanaka gyuto from KnS if you want a blade from a Japanese blacksmith at a really nice price. I dont think Ive seen cheaper forged blades from other Japanese blacksmiths. I stress this again, get them from KnS cause they will spruce up the blade and do a great final finish! :D

Wish you luck on your blade hunt! :D
 
+1 on buy good sharpening supplies immediately but at this juncture you don't need a large collection of stones. Two (500 + 2k is one possibility) or even just a single stone (800 or 1k) are adequate while you learn. Gesshin, JNS, Shapton, Chosera, and probably Morihei, Imanishi, Suehiro, or King Hyper (I've never used these) are all capable stones. You will also need something to flatten stones and bevel edges.
Personally, I would start with a single, fairly inexpensive, knife to learn sharpening on. I'm somewhat partial to some of the Tosa makers as having "good bones" coupled with lowish prices to make up for the often slightly rough fit and finish. Munetoshi Sanjo knives are another possibility albeit a bit more expensive. The Tojiro Shrogami 2 knives are yet another budget option as are the Dao Vua knives. A $300 knife that has been scarred up and had its profile altered by a beginner sharpener is going to lose a significant amount of resale value. Barring great luck I think the notion that your first purchase or two is going to be a "final" knife is a tad naive. Following consensus opinions will only get you so far.
 
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Wow, y'all are thorough! Thank you kindly for the robust responses. Based on the good advice here (@SilverSwarfer, @rickbern, @ian), I'm shifting focus from knives to stones. Super appreciative of the recommendations for specific stones (@LostHighway), and the proprietor recommendations to continue my research (@Garner Harrison, @Brian Weekley, @BlueSteel). Randomly, I'll be in LA next week and will make a trip to Japanese Knife Imports to discuss sharpening and stones. But will also head over to Epicurean Edge soon, and will make a pilgrimage to Vancouver in February to coincide with the KnifeWear Masakage sale that @BlueSteel mentioned. For specific blades, will check out the Silky shears @SilverSwarfer recommended, and the used Wat that @ian mentioned.

Seems like joining this forum was my smartest move (head nod @Chuckles). Thanks to all for pointing me in the right direction!
 
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Glad to help!

For the Knifewear sale, if you did not know BC sales tax is 12%. So if you carry a knife from the sale out the door with you, the 15% discount does just a little better than erasing the sales tax.

However, you might be able to pick your knife out and have them ship to you in WA. Looks like they have free shipping in North America for a $200+ purchase. Talk to them - if they ship to you in the US, they should not have to charge sales tax.

And of course, your $1 US is worth about $1.32 CDN...so the prices are a lot easier to handle in your currency.
 
panda said:
i wouldnt change a thing. i know what i like because of the history. dont regret any purchase even the ones i hated.
Click to expand...
+1

NO REGRETS

18csqe.jpg
 
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I wouldnt make any changes in my knife journey so far either. I like my steady progession as I gain more skills and knowledge of knives. Bought a tojiro dp in Culinary school and eventually learned how to sharpen on it. Got an internship and wanted a new knife, did some research and learned about carbons and picked up a gesshin uraku and started picking up some stones. Learned to care for carbons and picked up a cck carbon cleaver and gesshin ginga petty. Next on the list are single bevels but Im southpaw.
 
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