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cheflivengood

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Or you could just not break the law.
so when you were ten years old did your local gang banger put a gun to your head and tell you to sell his drugs or die? That happens, happened to a couple of my employees, everyone's situation is different.
 

labor of love

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so when you were ten years old did your local gang banger put a gun to your head and tell you to sell his drugs or die? That happens, happened to a couple of my employees, everyone's situation is different.
With all due respect here, that is the nature of a criminal enterprise. If weed was legal that situation wouldn’t change. The gang would simply use children to push another illegal drug.
 

cheflivengood

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With all due respect here, that is the nature of a criminal enterprise. If weed was legal that situation wouldn’t change. The gang would simply use children to push another illegal drug.
thats why the first step is decriminalization of weed, then onto the next ones.
 

chinacats

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I'll give the war on drugs two things...first I really like their music and second that pot was a gateway drug for me...once I found out how bad a lie it was that pot was dangerous I figured I had to try everything else for myself because they were likely lying about other drugs too.
 

malexthekid

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Thank you, as adults we all are entrusted with the expectation to act on good judgement and common sense. People can abuse Listerine and turn into strange, aggressive dimwits too.

I've seen alcohol divide families and destroy long friendships. I can't say I've seen the same with marijuana.

If anything, more and more people, many the type of person you'd least expect to use it (parents, politicians, media figures, ...) are turning to it ( or maybe no longer hiding the fact that they use) it as a recreational, harmless way of destressing after slaving away all day. If it helps people relax in this crazy non-stop day and age we find ourselves in, I say it's a good thing.

Not sure if I'm the only who's noticed but North America seems to be suffering from a mental health crisis. I highly doubt weed has any cause in that.
It is a but hard to compare pot to alcohol given how wide spread alcohol use is and therefore the rate of incidence is going to appear a lot higher when statistically it may be smaller... one won't know until studies are actually done.

Also it is funny you choose to compare "safe" use of pot vs abuse of alcohol...

I have also seen many many families that can safely consume several drinks a day without any issues... isn't that your argument about pot? It is safe for me and my mates, so far, so it must be safe...

As I said I believe in most adult individuals, like alcohol, consuming an appropriate amount is perfectly fine... yes alcohol may have a lower threshold for binging... however both have significant anti-social outcomes with overuse... they are just on the opposite spectrum (and yes alcohol can lead to violent issues however I also believe that is a bigger societal issue, given most people don't bash someone when drunk). Doesn't mean both aren't causing significant issues inside our brains.

Also perhaps you should do some reading on the correlation between marijuana and serve psychotic episodes in those that have a susceptibility to it.

And I have seen the situation where pot destroy families, marriages. Makes mental health problems significantly worse. Yes most times there are underlying mental health issues, which is much the same with alcohol abuse... sorry alcohol doesn't make you pick a fight, it just reduces inhibitions so you are more prepared to do it.

Pot doesn't have an aggressive effect like alcohol appears to have, it has a psychotic and paranoid effect when it goes bad generally.

I'm not arguing against legalising. I think pot should be legal, as in my experience it is the equivalent of alcohol... no better or no worse... but to call either of the safe is just wrong. Both have serious side affects that can cause major issues.

Legalising it may be the step to minimise it as doses can be controlled and regulated. It means research will be less taboo. Heck it may prove you are right and that it is safer.. it may prove it is a bigger cancer risk than cigarettes... I don't know.... but it doesn't have the carte blanche tag of "safe".
 

malexthekid

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Just FYI, impairment and having a measurable amount of a substance in your system are two completely different issues. Weather the substance is illegal to possess is a third issues. A person can be DUI/DWI with a blood alcohol content of less than .08 % If they can be shown to be "less safe" or impaired. The .08% is a statutory limit that means , in some cases, impairment need not be proven if this amount or more is detected. A person can be DUI on over the counter cough medicine if it impaired their ability to drive, even they took the correct recommended dose printed on the bottle. There are LOTS of intoxicants and pot is no worse or no better than any when it comes to imparing one's ability to drive safely.

BTW, I don't smoke pot but I think it should be legal everywhere.
Yep with alcohol there appears to be a general consensus that there is a correlation between blood alcohol level and impairment.

But like all things, humans aren't the same so not everyone reacts the same, which is also why there are variances such as the US setting at 0.08 and Aus at 0.05.

It isn't a precise relationship and it varies between person to person but it generally works.

Lets hope research can reveal a solution for pot... or as i suggested maybe roadside testing for impairments may move back to cognitive testing... so actually working on an individuals impairment.... but that is also still a long way off
 

Mucho Bocho

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Human have a reception for the THC molecule. In order for a such complex protein structure to exist, and DNA created to code for, hundreds, thousands of years of breeding must occur. Sure impose your Modern moralities and come to judge, but the wise one looks further back in time.
 

Nemo

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Human have a reception for the THC molecule. In order for a such complex protein structure to exist, and DNA created to code for, hundreds, thousands of years of breeding must occur. Sure impose your Modern moralities and come to judge, but the wise one looks further back in time.
FWIW, humans have a receptor for opiates as well.

The fact that a drug operates on an endogenous hormomal or neurotransmitter system doesn't automatically mean its without problems to supplement the bodies natural hormones and neurotransmitters.
 

chinacats

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Just an observation but seems as if the Aussies tend to take somewhat more of a hardline on this than Americans. Percentage of people now in the states who feel it should be legal is over 50. Just curious what that number is in Australia?

Along the line of what Mucho said, humans have been trying to change one's mental state through chemistry in one form or another for about as long as we've been around...seems just wrong of a government to try to impede that. And just liked prohibition with alcohol, not very successful:)
 

Paraffin

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One reason why a 1:1 comparison with alcohol doesn't work, is that there does seem to be some medical benefit to marijuana for things like nausea control during chemotherapy, and mild relief of pain from arthritis and other debilitating conditions without going to more addictive opioids. With alcohol, no doctor is writing prescriptions for booze.

This is actually an argument for full legalization, because when it's only partially legalized for medicinal use (which we tried here in WA before full legalization), you get people pestering their doctors for prescriptions when they're going to use it for recreation. Remove the illegal stigma, and both doctors and medical research can proceed to tell us how well this actually works in a medical context, or not.
 

Nemo

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Just an observation but seems as if the Aussies tend to take somewhat more of a hardline on this than Americans. Percentage of people now in the states who feel it should be legal is over 50. Just curious what that number is in Australia?
Not sure what support for legalization is like in Aus. Legal medicinal use is currenly on the agenda (with fairly strict criteria I think) but I don't get the feeling that recreational use legalization is. I don't think there are many prosecutions for personal use, though.

FWIW, I was personally previously in favour of legalization (although I have no interest in using the stuff myself). Two things have given me cause for thought about this and now I am ambivolent:

1) Every psychyatrist that I have discussed this with is deeply concerned about the clear association between regular pot use and psychotic disorders such as schizophrenia. Sure, it's only an association, but it's a pretty significant one. You could argue that it's because these people are self- medicating but it's a much stronger association with cannibis than with other commonly used drugs.

2) The opiate crisis essentially came about because we thought that we could treat chronic pain with opiates. We thought that we could manipulate a finely tuned neurohumeral system without causing problems. We were very very wrong. We are now aware of a problem called opiate induced hyperalgesia whereby in the long term, opiates cause worsening of pain and degradation of quality of life. We understand even less about the cannabinoid neurohumeral system than we did about the opioid one 10 years ago. We have no idea what mucking around with it in the long term will do. One thing that is clear is that almost all regular heavy cannabis users have difficulty controlling pain (for example after surgery) so I don't think it can be said that there are no consequences to its use.

I don't personally think that personal use should be criminalized and I am well aware that prohibition usually doesn't work and generates a black market but I am a little concerned about giving people the idea that using cannabis, especially heavy regular use, is perfectly safe. So for me, it's not a clearcut yea or nay to legalization.
 

Paraffin

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I don't personally think that personal use should be criminalized and I am well aware that prohibition usually doesn't work and generates a black market but I am a little concerned about giving people the idea that using cannabis, especially heavy regular use, is perfectly safe. So for me, it's not a clearcut yea or nay to legalization.
Well, whatever we all think about legalization, we're experiencing a huge expansion of legalized use right now in the USA, regardless of the hard-on the current Federal DOJ leadership has about criminalizing it.

As of January 1, recreational use of cannabis is legal in the states of Alaska, California, Colorado, Massachusetts, Maine, Nevada, Oregon, Washington, and the District of Columbia. That's the entire West Coast and a fair chunk of the NE. Voters in Arkansas, Florida, Montana and North Dakota approved or expanded medical marijuana laws in their states, so they may be next.

I don't see this trend being reversed. Whatever the large-scale effects are, pro or con, we'll know them before long. And as I said earlier, living in the first state (WA) that legalized recreational use a few years ago, I'm just not seeing widespread mayhem as a result. Life goes on as usual. It's just that the people who have been into weed for years up here, are just more open about it now.
 

malexthekid

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I'm with nemo and parafin...

I am not against legalisation but I an against the rhetoric that canabis is "safe". It should be legal, controlled and have the rhetoric same safety rhetoric as cigarettes and alcohol.
 

StonedEdge

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Either way the government's failure to legalize it early on led to a very thoroughly established black market for the stuff. This means it will never be regulated not controlled furthermore the government's obvious single impetus for legalizing is money. It's all a cash grab. Long time users simply will not go to a store where they have to pay more for less and go through all the BS they will ultimately put in place to keep you "safe".

If I want to smoke a joint or twenty I don't have to ask the government for their opinion on if it's safe or not. They've already established a great framework for me finding it at any hour of day or night at extremely reasonable prices (from some pretty legit and stand up sellers too). So in the end legal or not, safe or not, it really doesn't matter as net effect will remain the same IMO.

brb while I go develop adult onset paranoid schizophrenia hahaha
 

Chef Doom

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The only significant real problem I see is that there isn't a effect breathalizer test for THC intoxication. (Yet.) We have a significant, though declining, drunk driver problem and until we can prove they're stoned I fear stoned drivers will be a mess.
I faintly remember a study performed a decade or so ago that showed that experienced smokers drive better when they are high. It was new weed smokers that had not yet learned to compensate.

On another note, its one major step closer to ending the harmful pointless destructive war on drugs.
 

malexthekid

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I faintly remember a study performed a decade or so ago that showed that experienced smokers drive better when they are high. It was new weed smokers that had not yet learned to compensate.

On another note, its one major step closer to ending the harmful pointless destructive war on drugs.
Drive better than what?

Isn't that just like alcoholics can function better with alcohol in their system. Doesn't mean they aren't impaired.
 
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