Jck Kagayaki r2 series

Discussion in 'The Kitchen Knife' started by labor of love, Feb 3, 2019.

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  1. Feb 9, 2019 #61

    Cyrilix

    Cyrilix

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    Is that necessarily the case with all knives? What would make an OOTB edge unusable if it has been sharpened?
     
  2. Feb 9, 2019 #62

    HRC_64

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    the knife is designed to be sharpend 100s of times in its lifetime, each done to the end user spec
    no point getting hung up on the first sharpening from the factory...

    (unless it gets substantially in the way of finishing the edge without undue hassle)
     
  3. Feb 9, 2019 #63

    Benuser

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    You might see edges that won't hold, and chipping as a result. No big deal, perhaps.
    But an OOTB edge shouldn't be the object of some kind of veneration, either.
     
  4. Feb 9, 2019 #64

    dafox

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    Thank you, just what I wanted to see!
     
  5. Feb 10, 2019 #65

    Benuser

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    Never seen any edge holding with normal board work at less than 20 degrees inclusive.
    Better keep as thin as possible behind the edge, and let the very edge be rather conservative. Performance won't suffer and retention will greatly benefit.
     
  6. Feb 10, 2019 #66

    Cyrilix

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    You're basically saying microbevel, if I'm not mistaken.
     
  7. Feb 10, 2019 #67

    Benuser

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    No, a micro-bevel is really different. What I suggest, is making a relief at the lowest possible angle, and adding a final edge, through the entire progression, of some 30 to 35 degrees inclusive.
    A micro-bevel is cut in the existing bevel with a fine stone at a very high angle, mostly one-sided, while respecting the overall geometry of the edge. A very different notion, if you don't mind.
     
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  8. Feb 10, 2019 #68

    Cyrilix

    Cyrilix

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    Basically what you're saying is basically a two sided larger than microbevel bevel. The reason why a microbevel is not supposed to impact performance is because it's so small that you retain thinness behind the edge.

    That said, the secondary bevel (not counting the microbevel) would be the one where I'm looking to go 8-10 degrees per side, with the one sided microbevel raising it to about 15 degrees. Primary bevel would depend on what kind of geometry is needed to reach the spine and would have variations for convexity, but it should be anywhere from 0-8 degrees.

    In your case, your secondary relief bevel is 15-18 degrees, followed by a primary bevel of how many degrees. I assume when you say the lowest angle possible, you're probably aiming in the 4-6 degree range and you essentially keep it that way all the way up pretty far?
     
  9. Feb 10, 2019 #69

    Benuser

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    Take care with the notions of primary and secundary bevel. In different fora they are used ... differently.
    https://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/threads/primary-secondary-bevel-discrepancy.2231/
    That’s why I spoke of a relief bevel, i.e. the thinned part behind the bevels.
    I want the right, dominant bevel to follow the face's convexity. Most knives I use or sharpen have the the edge off-centered to the left, as a result of which the left bevel will be small. Even smaller if I raise the left angle to balance friction on both sides in order to limit steering. The convex, right bevel will end at some 12 degrees, the tiny, straight left bevel will be cut around the 18-20 degrees. With softer steel both values may raise accordingly.
     
  10. Feb 11, 2019 #70

    labor of love

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  11. Feb 11, 2019 #71

    HRC_64

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    Still pricey at $400+ so it still has to compete with the big names...
    takamura and ryusen (blazen lines) and also maybe tanaka r2 suminigashi
    which makes me wonder...."who has the best heat treatment"?

    Or do they maybe send it out to the same place?
     
  12. Feb 11, 2019 #72

    JBroida

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    for what its worth, ryusen heat treats in house... i believe the others do as well, but i'll just speak to what i've seen with my own two eyes
     
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  13. Feb 11, 2019 #73

    labor of love

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    I actually think it’s not pricey compared to other suminagashi 240mm westerns. But I ask about knives like this one and the jck r2 because they’re not really talked about much.
    Blazen’s reputation precedes itself. I want to get one really soon.
     
  14. Feb 11, 2019 #74

    labor of love

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    Takamura PRO petty arrived today.
    It’s very nicely finished. Especially around the handle and bolster.. comes with a nice black saya with very good fit for the knife.
    The blade is thinner than I thought it would be. I knew it would be a ground thin but the entire blade looks pretty thin.
    Comparison photos w taka red handle will be happening soon.
     
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2019
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  15. Feb 11, 2019 #75

    HRC_64

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    They are just at the deep end of the market for me personally (over$400 and into $500 range).

    So just for discussion purposes the heat-treatment aspect of r2 is something I really would be focused on.

    When I see a Takamura Uchi, the knife makes me think the makers put some soul into it...and reports of that knife seem to be pretty positive. But I don't get that same feeling looking at every knife, so it makes me curious as to what they are doing witht the grinds and the heat-treatments.

    Jon has remarked above and in other threads he's been impressed with Ryusen doing various HT on VG10 and other steels like r2. Takamura seems to have a long history of expereince with r2 going back in part to work with ryusen/blazen.

    Ohishi is a strange brand with not alot known about it (who makes what for them, etc), so its good to ask these questions.

    Was not trying to presume a good or bad answer one way or the other with them.
     
  16. Feb 12, 2019 #76

    labor of love

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    For sure.
    Ohishi is a strange brand. They also have a nashiji ginsanko line that I believe is from sanjo. This seems unusual to me, as I’ve never seen a sanjo smith work with ginsanko. But what do I know?
    Either way the shop in question is in New Orleans which is an hour away from me so I’ll likely go check out both Ohishi lines in person soon.
     
  17. Feb 12, 2019 #77

    JBroida

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    i know a few sanjo guys who work with ginsanko
     
  18. Feb 12, 2019 #78

    Ivang

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    I really like tanakas r2, and prefer it slightly to takamura's (red handle) and kurosaki's (shizuku), which are the other 2 r2 knives i have experience with.

    I am really curious about the takamura uchigo, and if i had had any available funds this time some showed around, i would have snagged one.

    Tanakas r2 blades are the ****.

    Cheers

    Ivan
     
  19. Feb 12, 2019 #79

    labor of love

    labor of love

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    Cool. I knew I was wrong. Haha
     
  20. Feb 12, 2019 #80

    panda

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    this guy used to turn his nose up at westerns but he ran out of wa knives to try so now digging into this pool, hahahahahahaha
     
  21. Feb 12, 2019 #81

    Cyrilix

    Cyrilix

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    Time to try a Genkai Masakuni Honyaki Yanagi. I don't even know if people buy those to use them. :)
     
  22. Feb 12, 2019 #82

    labor of love

    labor of love

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    No lie.
     
  23. Feb 12, 2019 #83

    labor of love

    labor of love

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    There’s still plenty of wa handle stuff I want to try to though.
     
  24. Feb 13, 2019 #84

    labor of love

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    After a shift with this Takamura PRO petty I decided it’s a keeper. I was a little apprehensive if I was going to want to keep it at first because of the blade thinness, but it works really well.
    In conclusion, and comparing it side by side w the takamura red handle 180mm gyuto I think you get about the same cutting experience with both knives.
    This means that a taka red handle petty is a real bargain. But at the same time I’m happy with the perks of the pro. Nicer cladding, matching black saya, nicer handle, nicer finishing on the bolster+full tang.
    I’ll drop some pics soon.
     
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  25. Feb 13, 2019 #85

    Cyrilix

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    No lust for the Uchigumo after your first experience? :)
     
  26. Feb 13, 2019 #86

    labor of love

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    Sure, I’d love to borrow one! Haha, this takamura purchase was a shot in the dark. Uchi is a pretty expensive shot in the dark TBH. Never say never though.
    Blazen and Kagero are next.
     

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