JNat Beginners Guide to Buying: Stories of Success, Pitfalls, and Fails

[spyken]

When you said it had been a hit and miss and expensive lessons i thought you were talking about jnats. My advice is more of the same: buying from known sellers (Yamashita-san, Watanabe-san, Maksim-JNS, Jon-JKI or people from KKF you know) and ask them all your questions before buying.

yes, it was hit and miss when I bought my 2 jnats. one was ok, the other wasn't. just don't have the budget these days haha

 

[eggistentialist]

Lol this is probably going to be my laugh of the day.

By the way, the chinese words that imprinted on the stone is literally mean "dinosaur's feces fossil".

Enough humor for today

 

[bkultra]

@makhoyiumitchell welcome to the forum

 

[eggistentialist]

Hello bkultra, nice to meet you.

Since I am a new member in this forum.
So if you don't mind, I will do a short introduction about my journey in natural stone sharpening over the past year (I treated this comment as a dairy of myself as well, and so some of the paragraph below may deviate from major stone sharpening ideology).

***Anyway, sorry in advance for the lengthy paragraph and my poor language***

-----

Initially, I was only fascinated by Japanese single-bevel knife (Deba to be exact) with literally no interest in sharpening (of course until now both of them are sharing equal importance in my life). I remembered when I first got my deba, I only used shapton 12000 to sharpen it and thought it is more than enough (which is very silly).

However, the turning point occurred when I finally realized the cosmetic finish a sharpening stone can give to the blade. Starting from that moment, I realized the limitation for synthetic stone and began to dive deep into the "black hole" of natural stone, soughing stones that does not only produce good cosmetic effect but also appealing in their own appearance and rarity (that's why I am about to go bankrupt

).

For me, since I am not a professional chef but a home cook specialized in architecture and stuff, and so natural stone not only a mere "tool" for me but instead SUBLIMES into a piece of "artwork/sculpture" or you may say a "gift" from the nature, while this gift has a special "accompany feature" that allow you to use it to sharpen your knife. Such kinds of primitive, organic and idealistic fantasy in natural stone sharpening is the biggest romance that long "haunted" my mind and giving me the biggest motivation to continue dive deep in this rabbit hole to the point that I literally willing to forgo most of my previous interest to sough for a high quality stones.

---

Anyway, I was "officially" trapped into this rabbit hole last year after re-reading many articles and scientific research posted on yanmodiy.com (permanently closed unfortunately), wrote by hardcore natural stone collectors from China and Taiwan. And I believe this forum played a significant role constituting my "belief" on natural stone (i.e. start off by trying high quality stone and don't waste time on cheap one). I know it may seems absurd for most people but I believe it is true to certain extent. In other words, even though you may buy stones with high price, but this value, unlike automobile or mobile phone, will not depreciate (or even inflate) overtime as long as it is the authentic one. For this reason, I am pretty convinced with this belief when walking on the path of natural stone sharpening + collecting.

And after staying in this rabbit hole for year, I gradually realize and sense (by my own instinct) how the "price" works in classifying different qualities of stones (***This "price range system" only applicable in reputable seller such as Watanabe or Tanaka as most of the retailers usually inflated the price for 30-50% and so it is not accurate to be the measuring standard in this system). Anyway, it does not mean I am totally skeptical about buying stone by pure luck nor believing there are stones which both perform and cheap in price (performance is somewhat a subjective personal standard I my opinion...), but I think there is always a reason listing the stone at certain price (Again, it is not an absolute as some dishonest seller may overly priced their stone even though their stones are low in quality). But still, looking at how reputable seller list the price for their stones are certainly a great practice sharpening my ability in roughly understanding the relationship between stones and their values.

Anyway, my very first Jnats were purchased from gokitcyou (there is almost no one mention this store in the forum): a hard Kouzaki aoto and black tsushima bench stone. Performance is "ok" but not the best one in my collection...

Fortunately, I did not suffer much from buying fake or low quality stone since I never buy stones from auction or ebay except for the asano naguras. But still I have bought a stone from nonosandesu, which is a great failure for me (I mean the stone performs well but the seller just marked the price twice higher in ebay than what he marked in Yahoo Auction Japan...) Anyway, I will return the stone to him so it is not a big deal after all.

To keep it short, it is overall a very enjoyable moment for me searching for stones over this year, especially the middle-grid stone (nakato) from different buyers, such as from gokitcyou, Watanabe, yunoki2244 or even directly from Tanaka san. The moment when you finally find what you long sought for is truly priceless.

Indeed, diving in this rabbit hole requires lots of money, time, failure in order to let you learn a precious lesson which others may not able to tell you. For example, during the journey of searching for stones, I have once tried to buy stones from diverse sellers and websites from Japan (e.g. e-toishi, toishi.jp, toishikan, saicom, namikawa and other stone shops in Hong Kong). By all mean, they are all reputable seller from Japan and Hong Kong, but you know, when you are staying in the rabbit hole long enough, you will gradually realize WHAT YOU REALLY WANT and I think such realization of your own desire and the reduction, condensation and optimization of sellers you are really going to seriously invest in are kinda a sign of maturity (can't find the right word for it) in this mystic field of interest.

Anyway, I will post more thread about my actual experience with each stones (I used to post them on Facebook though), hope you guys will like it.

---
Here is the list and record of stone I bought and once owned (in chronological manner), it will be great if you guys can also share yours to me!

(synthetic and diamond plate did not include in the list)

Aoto and Tsushima
V
Atagoyama Tomae
V
Ohira Akapin
V
Ohira Iromono
V
Asano Nagura (mejiro, ban, botan, tenjou, koma)
V
Maruoyama Shiro Suita
V
Nakayama Kiita Tomae
V
Ohira Renge Suita, Amakusa, Binsui, Mizukibara tomae
V
Asano Nagura Atsu and koma
V
Iyodo
V
Soft aoto
V
Kaisei (brown)
V
Wakayama Omura, Saeki
V
Nagasaki Omura, Numata
V
Asano Nagura Atsu (Big)
V
Kaisei (blue), Jokyoji


Again, thank you so much for reading and hope to exchange more knowledge with you guys in the future.

 

[Matt Zilliox]

Great post! thanks. I am just beginning this journey. i will look forward to your reports of each stone, and of course photos!

 

[DHunter86]

99.9% sure its this same guy below. If you go and look at the old sales of the honing_guide user, they take you to items sold by the kossy_1123 account.

YourTogiya (Aka. Togiya 180, Current ebay accounts: japanese_natural_whetstone and kossy_1123)- Blatant re-stamping of stones from other sellers and an unwillingness to explain/apologize when confronted with proof. Some debate as to the quality of his stock, with reports of both good and bad stones, but definitely no question as to his underhanded business practices.

Just some additional info for those of you who might want to risk it and play ball with honing_guide:

Over the past two weeks, the highest bidders were retracted from a couple of his auctions less than two hours before the end of the auctions. So if you're the second highest bidder, be prepared that you may become the winner. May or may not affect your bid price or strategy, just food for thought. No way to look into what's going on as his listings are all set as private.

 

[alex1921]

Just some additional info for those of you who might want to risk it and play ball with honing_guide:

Over the past two weeks, the highest bidders were retracted from a couple of his auctions less than two hours before the end of the auctions. So if you're the second highest bidder, be prepared that you may become the winner. May or may not affect your bid price or strategy, just food for thought. No way to look into what's going on as his listings are all set as private.

Yes, honing_guide aka yourtogiya etc etc is a know Russian scammer.
He has been doing this shill bidding using 2 extra accounts for years now. I got scammed by him over 3 years ago and despite contacting ebay etc nothing happend. Eventually wrote a bad review and he returned my money.
Prior to switching the settings to private it was really easy to spot since he used the same 2 extra accounts to run his prices up. On top of that he uses those accounts to give himself high praises under the feedback section.
So with him if you decide to play, you have to snipe. Otherwise you are just feeding the beast.
Colors of stones have not been accurate either, a guy who bought 3 stones from him posted picture listed vs how the stones really looked when they arrived. I have it saved somewhere.

 

[TRPV4]

Also when buying multiple stones, shipping costs are extremely painful. Using the buyee "consolidate" option will save tons of cash.

 

[jacko9]

It would be very useful if some Senior Expert compiled a listing of the various types of Natural Stones along with their approximate properties. I for one am totally lost looking at Natural Stones vs Synthetic stones where there is a grading system of some usefulness.

 

[spaceconvoy]

Problem with naturals is the variation within one type of stone can be much greater than between different types of stones. No two stones are alike, and if you're buying online it's always a gamble. I wish more vendors took video of sharpening on each stone, but that's a lot of work and doesn't benefit them, just exposes the duds. Buy from a reputable source and prepare to spend $$$, or better yet, save that money for a trip to Kyoto

 

[Marcelo Amaral]

There are some vendors like Yamashita san (Japan Tool), Jon Broida (JKI) and Maksim (JNS) that have always delivered and i would trust them.

Also, before buying, ask their advice and all your questions.

 

[M1k3]

Aframes, Bernal and Watanabe also.

 

[jacko9]

Interesting after I purchased a few knifes from Shin Watanabe I asked him about buying Natural stones. He asked what I had and what progression I was using and told me to stick with what I had. I think the lesson learned is if you don't know about what you're looking for you can't buy intelligently. Even though I realize that two stones from the same mine might behave differently most people like myself have no clue as to what the different stones are about.

 

[M1k3]

You probably have to ask him to recommend X stone for Y use. Or between specific stones what he thinks. Etc

 

[jacko9]

You probably have to ask him to recommend X stone for Y use. Or between specific stones what he thinks. Etc

That's what I was trying to say above when I asked if some expert would put together a rough roadmap so I could learn the terminology of Natural Stones.

 

[M1k3]

To generic for him.

 

[lemeneid]

Best to go in with a good attitude. There are no “bad” stones, only stones that do not fit your preferences. But most jnats need some adjustment to your skill set to bring out the best in them. They aren’t one dimensional like synths where all you do is rub metal.

The only bad stones out there are the ones full of toxic lines and inclusions. Those are the only stones you should avoid.

 

[lemeneid]

For guys looking to just sharpen, I think it would be best to just get a nice Aoto or Aizu to start out, those are more affordable, then after that go with a Suita. And maybe if you are doing single bevels, another finer hard stone. That’s all you really need to keep your knives sharp.

If you’re looking to do more fancy things like polish bevels, kasumi, honyaki, etc. Then please follow us down that rabbit hole

 

[Rom]

Xenif, thank you so much for this thread, I really hope the senior stoners come out.

I've been down the rabbit hole now for four lovely years, and I can say that still I understand nothing.

The little contributions I can share is buying from MetalMaster a $50 Aoto, saw at the time so many great feedbacks on Aoto stones.

MM was OK to deal with, eventually my first Jnat, the Aoto arrived, I immediately disliked it, it felt like polishing on sand.

Eventually, a year latter, and a few little koppa's I bough on the way, I went 'wiled' and bought a $250 Aoto from JNS.

First of all JNS is a pleasure to deal with and supper fast delivery, and then there is the stone.

I have no real way to know if its a 'good' stone, I can only compare it to the one I got from MM for $50, and yes, it was worth at least 5 times the stone from MM.

The obvious conclusion is to buy from a reputable source, JNS, JKI among the best, and of coarse from this forum,but I just cant afford the $900 for a Ohira Renge Suita from JNS, so I spend time searching Buyee and got about three stones from there, are they good? I dont really know, but I regularly use one of them with much joy, and use the another , an Uchi, if wand a pretty finish.

hope this helped a bit

ahh, by the way, the stone I least use, and which was relatively expensive was purchased from 330mate.

I buy from Buyee too. I’ve bought knives and a relatively big (1408 grams) Kyoto Motoyama stone there. However, you have to read the shipping details very carefully on Buyee’s auction posts. I got charged 20,000 yen domestic fee (which is about the shipping cost for furniture) for a Global knife set (a santoku and petty knife) I bought from Buyee. Apparently, there are scammers that do this practice (the shipping details where the domestic shipping charge is indicated is not readily seen in the post) and Buyee can’t do anything about it. So I’ve learned my lesson and scrutinize the domestic shipping cost of items auctioned at Buyee.

 

[D J]

Hi guy's. I just became a member a couple of days ago. I hope I don't bore everyone with this story. My knife journey started about 11 years ago now and I wish that I had started a sharpening journey first, but anyway it wasn't until I had 6 or so knives, a couple of them were starting to dull and I didn't know what to do. I started searching knife sharpening. rigs, jigs, guides, anything that requires no skill. I ended up buying a set of dmt diamond stone's and a dmt angle guide, my knives were mostly vg10 with one sg2 and two r2. I was happy with the edge I could get from this set-up. Life was good Until I bought my first high carbon knife Mr teruyasu denka petty. I didn't know that high carbon knives don't take a V edge. I removed so much steel from this knife before putting it away and I made a promise not to buy another knife until I could maintain the one's I had, without the use of angle guide. I had better cut this short to now, 7 or 8 years after the denka. I finally bought a new knife a santoko from Mr Watanabe. I decided, well I wanted to show my own respect for the makers of the knives I was buying, which was mostly japanese knives. And I wanted to, at least finish on a natural whetstone. My first natural stone. I have a story about the experience I had with that as well. It was the stone that pulled me into the world of jnats. Unfortunately as with my knife journey. I jumped into the naturals with no knowledge, eBay was my main source, this is embarrassing to say but it's my true story and although I think the stones I have do a good job as far as abrading metal. It wasn't until around mid last year. I really had like, a level up with my sharpening skills. This is when I started to feel some hard lines and inclusionsin some of my stone's. Now I have a good look and ask some questions when buying a new stone. I'll leave it here for now. With a pic of my new knife with some stone's

 

[BillHanna]

What's up with the rejected stones Maksim put up today? Are they good or bad fixer uppers? Is this comparable to minor printing errors or are they flooded, salvaged Benzs? ( if any of that makes sense)

 

[Hassanbensober]

Looks like a lot of great stones to me. I would guess most are irregular shapes probably some won’t sit flat without aid. Some good deals to be had I’m sure.

 

[valgard]

What's up with the rejected stones Maksim put up today? Are they good or bad fixer uppers? Is this comparable to minor printing errors or are they flooded, salvaged Benzs? ( if any of that makes sense)

In the past they were scratchy stones, with crack, etc

 

[DHunter86]

Some had lines in them which needed to be dug out. Wished I had seen them though, would have liked to purchase some of them.

I was refreshing the page daily, but there was nothing till after I went to bed.

 

[childermass]

some were looking somewhat alright but almost all of them had some toxic looking inclusions. Those with the lines might be easier to handle than the ones with the scattered impurities as you almost always miss some of those when digging out.
Best option for those will be cutting into Nagura.

 

[D J]

Hi I have an ohira suita bought from ebay, it has quite a lot of su lines. Two were hard "toxic". The worst one runs from maybe 20mm in from one corner to around the same to the other corner, also one other line came up. the line running from end to end is so hard, the nail I used kept sliding off the line, scratching and gouging. I saw a set of craft "needle" files, bought them and carefully filed like a small ditch on each side of the line, then with a steel plate ( an old double sided diamond plate I have). I first started to break the line, best I could, from end to end then put the corner of the steel plate on to the line dragging it back, it seemed to work out well. Time consuming of course but at least the stone can be used, I have often thought that it would be good to get another ohira. but look for a better cleaner one. The stone if not for the lines is great, it makes metal coloured slurry fast, it leaves quite a cloudy finish and most of the time I can finish on it. Just wish I had more room to move on it haha.
David

 

[Rangen]

For guys looking to just sharpen, I think it would be best to just get a nice Aoto or Aizu to start out, those are more affordable, then after that go with a Suita. And maybe if you are doing single bevels, another finer hard stone. That’s all you really need to keep your knives sharp.

If you’re looking to do more fancy things like polish bevels, kasumi, honyaki, etc. Then please follow us down that rabbit hole

This might be the post, of all that I have read here, that I have thought most about, because I've absorbed its message, but found a somewhat different view: that there is wonder to be found, and quite a rabbit hole, using JNats just to sharpen.

I love sharpening on JNats. There is something about the feel of the stones that I find utterly compelling, and something about the edges I get from them, that I love more than anything a synthetic has been able to provide.

I like harder stones. I got myself a nice muddy Aoto, but I barely use it, because I prefer the harder Tsushima, which is roughly in the same grit range. Sharpening on a harder stone, when it turns perfectly slick and just-right abrasive because you got the water and the slurry just right, is intoxicating. From there, if I am pampering a great knife, I will move to this wonderful Ohira Renga Suita I just got, and then to a harder Okudo Suita, before my favorite kind of stone so far, the green Asagi, a wonderful hard stone which will put an edge on a knife like no other I've experienced.

Maybe that's the limit of this rabbit hole, except for my coveting of other examples of stones in that sequence. I admit it's not as deep as the polishing one. But it's pretty wonderful nonetheless.

I still might take up polishing one day. I bought a gorgeous stone here that is pretty clearly just for that. I may sell it on. Or maybe I will dive down that other rabbit hole...

 

[josemartinlopez]

For guys looking to just sharpen, I think it would be best to just get a nice Aoto or Aizu to start out, those are more affordable, then after that go with a Suita. And maybe if you are doing single bevels, another finer hard stone. That’s all you really need to keep your knives sharp.

I'll probably regret asking this, but what's the benefit to working in a natural stone if you are looking to just sharpen and not get into polishing? And where does the first natural stone fit in your progression?

 

[vl2k1]

This might be the post, of all that I have read here, that I have thought most about, because I've absorbed its message, but found a somewhat different view: that there is wonder to be found, and quite a rabbit hole, using JNats just to sharpen.

I love sharpening on JNats. There is something about the feel of the stones that I find utterly compelling, and something about the edges I get from them, that I love more than anything a synthetic has been able to provide.

I like harder stones. I got myself a nice muddy Aoto, but I barely use it, because I prefer the harder Tsushima, which is roughly in the same grit range. Sharpening on a harder stone, when it turns perfectly slick and just-right abrasive because you got the water and the slurry just right, is intoxicating. From there, if I am pampering a great knife, I will move to this wonderful Ohira Renga Suita I just got, and then to a harder Okudo Suita, before my favorite kind of stone so far, the green Asagi, a wonderful hard stone which will put an edge on a knife like no other I've experienced.

Maybe that's the limit of this rabbit hole, except for my coveting of other examples of stones in that sequence. I admit it's not as deep as the polishing one. But it's pretty wonderful nonetheless.

I still might take up polishing one day. I bought a gorgeous stone here that is pretty clearly just for that. I may sell it on. Or maybe I will dive down that other rabbit hole...

Indeed I share somewhat similar sentiment with an Aoto. I too, took the first JNats steps recently and invested in an Aoto. Stone was muddy and softer than I expected. Nothing wrong with the Aoto per se. Just that, coming from a synesthetic stone setup and then jump in with both feet in with an Aoto was so jarring that I couldn't quite make peace with it yet. So, it's a valuable lesson to me that the rabbit hole is deep and wide. Each stone have their own personality, takes time and effort to understand. This particular stone is just different from what I thought it is. The previous owner offered wise advice and I am making progress, but still some way to go before I can claim some proficiency with it.

 

[spaceconvoy]

I'll probably regret asking this, but what's the benefit to working in a natural stone if you are looking to just sharpen and not get into polishing? And where does the first natural stone fit in your progression?

I have a fast aoto I use as a finishing stone. My progression has become very simple: 500 glass stone to aoto. And sometimes just the aoto if the knife is in good shape. I don't bother with polishing, just use it for sharpening.

I prefer the edge it gives over any synthetic I've tried. Conventional wisdom around here is that naturals create a more complex edge that can be toothy yet refined, due to the wider range of grit size. Seems true to me, and the practical result in the real world is the knife still slices tomatoes long after it would have needed resharpening on a synthetic.