JNat Beginners Guide to Buying: Stories of Success, Pitfalls, and Fails

[TheLuthier]

Very interesting, thanks Naader!

 

[naader]

Over time, I've really become quite fond of the Aoto/Aizu combo for removing the makers grind marks, low spots etc, while maintaining the makers intended geometry

Man this sounds like a nightmare. You'd be looking at 30 hours per side on a wide bevel finished on a wheel if you wana remove steel with aizu, not to mention how much refreshing it would need to keep from burnishing.

This is only doable on knives with relatively flat or convex bevels with already manageable shape.
"good coarse stone" doesn't exist as far as I am concerned, so I do understand where you are coming from but there are options in the 500 grit range that you can use to reliably adjust tolerance issues you'd inevitably run into on most 180/200 grit stones.

If you wana reliably move a ton of steel, doing it on aizu just sounds like masochism lol

 

[Hanmak17]

It's not easy and it doesn't happen in one pass. I've just gotten in the habit of periodically touching up my favorite knives on my Aizu. Pretty easy to run both sides across the stone to polish at same time. After a while most makers marks are gone and the reactivity to the stone seems to build up a nice finish that patinas quickly.

Probably rediculous but works for me. I've got a handful of knives I've treated this way that I would never sell now. They are perfect in all ways for my needs.

 

[user 50275]

I want to buy my first JNAT!
Please help a newbie decide:

1. Aosuita, Namazu, Akarenge, Ipponsen. In Maruo-yama, Kameoka, Kyoto from Watanabe
   
   
   
   38 x 75 x 170mm. Weight 1,240g
   for ~550$
   
   
2. or Aosuita Suita Toishi from a German seller for ~720$
   
   
   
   
   177x 83 x 42 mm, Weight,1452 g

What do you think is the better deal?

Thanks in advance
Chris

 

[DHunter86]

At these prices and these dimensions, I'd ask for the polish off the stones. Also, what kind of finish / use are you intending to use your JNats for?

For the one from Watanabe, I see a line that could potentially lead to the stone splitting or be an inclusion.

 

[user 16756]

I would not personally choose either of those as a first stone.

The Maruo shiro suitas are just way easier to work with IMO.

 

[user 50275]

Is the aosuita so different to use than the Shiro Suita?


Sharpening technique wise I think i have a good grasp and trained a steady hand on both sides. Maybe having different steels/forms helped. I can obviously still improve by alot!

What do I want? I would really love a superb finishing stone for sharpening at first that doesn't kill the Bank completely.

And in summer a mid grid. A higher quality Aizu maybe a nice Ikarashi and later something super hard. Then I want to try my first polishing project and working on grind geometry.

Would you suggest a different route or what stone would you suggest for a finisher for edges at start.

 

[Krakorak]

I also wouldn't buye either of these, but for a different reason (although I agree with the post Nr. 216) - they just seem to me to be too expensive for a first JNAT, you might be able to get several good and already tested stones from some of the experienced people here for that money which would be much better sellable eventually if they wouldn't fit your needs...

 

[Krakorak]

Is the aosuita so different to use than the Shiro Suita?


Sharpening technique wise I think i have a good grasp and trained a steady hand on both sides. Maybe having different steels/forms helped. I can obviously still improve by alot!

What do I want? I would really love a superb finishing stone for sharpening at first that doesn't kill the Bank completely.

And in summer a mid grid. A higher quality Aizu maybe a nice Ikarashi and later something super hard. Then I want to try my first polishing project and working on grind geometry.

Would you suggest a different route or what stone would you suggest for a finisher for edges at start.

It still seems to make not much sense to invest that much money into a single stone, particularly if you want it predominantly just for edge sharpening...I for instance had a pair of quite cheap Shobudani koppas, one softer/medium fine, one harder, finer, which would be totally sufficient for someone looking for great edges from a natural stone..

 

[user 16756]

"I only want this stone for edges"

you may think this now, you won't think it once you have a 500 USD+ stone you know is capable of a good finish. IME anyway.

if you are really, really sure it's just edges, a small okudo suita would be my pick. you can still find some for a decent price if they are small and those are my favorite stones, period.

 

[ethompson]

I overlooked the just edges part. If that’s the case, a really nice BBW / coti would be my choice.

 

[Heckel7302]

I've been told by more than one person that Ao Suita are one of the biggest gambles in jnats. Some are great, many are terrible. Buyer beware.

Besides, seems too fine a choice for kitchen edges to me. Jnats typically recommended for kitchen edges are more in the mid grit range, like Aizu, Ikarashi, Numata, maybe Natsuya depending on the stone.

 

[ethompson]

I've been told by more than one person that Ao Suita are one of the biggest gambles in jnats. Some are great, many are terrible. Buyer beware.

Besides, seems too fine a choice for kitchen edges to me. Jnats typically recommended for kitchen edges are more in the mid grit range, like Aizu, Ikarashi, Numata, maybe Natsuya depending on the stone.

You're definitely right on ao suita in my experience. They can be a bit coarser than a lot of people expect. Not poor quality stones per se, but maybe not what many imagine.

Don't discount the faster fine stones for edges - say a Nakayama or Okudo suita. You might find yourself surprised at how nice a well formed apex from one of those faster stones can be. Still plenty of bite since they cut fast enough that you don't end up burnishing the apex as much.

 

[user 50275]

Thanks for all the feedback. Will not buy either of those stones. Many people hit me up with advice.
I honestly thought an Ao Suita was a good price/performance stone. Not too hard, quite fast and fine as a finishing stone.
Will look for a okudo suita koppa.

 

[user 50275]

What would you say about this Nakayama

210x77x25 947g. 400$

Best regards and thanks again for all the inputs

 

[milangravier]

I got now a little more than 3 years experience on Jnats. Using them weekly, mostly for polishing though.
It is very hard to advise a Jnat, as it is also hard to advise a synthetic finisher for exemple. A lot of choice and we have all different taste.
From what I remember, about the 4 or 5 first stones I bought : I was always surprised. Surprised by the behavior of the stone compared to what the stone looked like or what informations the seller gave me. So be ready to be surprised !
For a sharpening stone, in the kitchen, for most things : a sweet spot will be around 3k/5k grit. For Jnats, that mean fine mid grit like Aizu, some Mikawas, Ueno, Kasabori, some Aoto, Tajima (there is one on the german website). Above them, you will have a range of soft/mid soft stone in the 5k/7k category : Maruoyama stones, Hideriyama, Soft Shobo, Soft Ohira, Soft Aiiwatani, Mizukihara etc. I would say they will feel smoother than the mid grit jnats and will still be a good allaround stone for your kitchen knives edges. Then there is even finer stones and they will be for most of them harder stones : Nakayama, Ozuku, Okudo, Shinden, eastern mines, but there is some harder ohira for exemple. Those are mainly for woodworkers. Those stones are generally too hard and too fine for edges in kitchen use.
For polishing, it is a little different. I would say the mid grits are nice, but you will maybe quickly want a finer result, a more refine finish with less visible scratches. The 5k/7k category with the softer stones will be great choice for beginners. They are prefinishers for most advanced polishers. But when you begin you need a mid soft stone to compensate all the errors you will have on your bevel. So they will be my choice for a first Jnat. Other harder and finer stones would be for more advanced users.

My first jnat was a soft/mid soft Uchigumori from Namikawa. I paid 120 euros for a small 180x60x25 stone (that doesn't exist anymore as I can see on namikawa website).
But what I would advise you would be a mid soft stone in the 6k grit, not too beautiful (because the prices pop), in a size big enough that you feel confortable for sharpening a 240mm gyuto. About the sellers, I would really advise you to buy or here (so you can have someone to give you some precise informations/pictures) or to a trusted seller like @toishigram on instagram who often got some nice stones for low budgets too.
The Maruoyama ao suita I never tried myself, but I would say it should be a good choice. The only reservation I got is that the first one is a koppa 550usd + custom and shipping fees. The second is overall ok for the size, quite expensive still, even if the Jnats are now quite expensive anyway, main issue for me is that you don't see the sides, you don't see the mud or the effect of the stone on a blade. You don't have anyone to show you what the stone will do. So it will be a 720 usd (+shipping +customs if you're not in europe) gamble a little. I have done it in the past but it was not always successful. Last thing on those stones, they are suita and they hace some "yake" the dark orange dots and lines : on some stones you will not feel them but on others they are harder than the stone and you would have to lap the stone until you pass that layer and get to a more homogeneous part. For my work I avoid that.

The 400 usd Nakayama is a better budget to my point of view for a beginner. Nakayama is renown for good quality stones (but are they all?). My reserve would be that it is a harder, finer stone. Meaning too fine for most edges you would like in the kitchen, meaning too hard for your first steps as a polisher.

hope that help. There is a lot of generality in my post, because remember all stones are unique and it is not because it is a Ohira suita that it is a good quality, fast, mid soft stone.

 

[user 50275]

First Jnat is on its way!

A Watanabe Uchigumori, Hazuya, Akarenge Hardness: 56HSD
45 x 75 x 165mm. Weight 1,390g

Can send feedback on the 13th of February
Cheap ways to flatten?
I thought I'd use a SiC grid a "L-Type Ruler" and lots of free time =)

 

[deltaplex]

First Jnat is on its way!

A Watanabe Uchigumori, Hazuya, Akarenge Hardness: 56HSD
45 x 75 x 165mm. Weight 1,390g

View attachment 222921
Can send feedback on the 13th of February
Cheap ways to flatten?
I thought I'd use a SiC grid a "L-Type Ruler" and lots of free time =)

Just bring a container of water outside with you and rub it back and forth on a paver/sidewalk/some relatively flat concrete.

 

[user 50275]

To seal or not to seal?

Debating wether i need to seal or not.
Currently i lean more towards not sealing and just looking after the stone.

If i seal my idea currently is to buy coat shellac and only seal the sides not the bottom.
Sealing sides and bottom feels like the water will be "trapped"
If i seal. Before or after lapping?

 

[Heckel7302]

First Jnat is on its way!

A Watanabe Uchigumori, Hazuya, Akarenge Hardness: 56HSD
45 x 75 x 165mm. Weight 1,390g

View attachment 222921
Can send feedback on the 13th of February
Cheap ways to flatten?
I thought I'd use a SiC grid a "L-Type Ruler" and lots of free time =)

12" concrete pavers are just a buck or two. I'd use that to grind off most of the rough top, then switch to a diamond plate to finish.

To seal or not to seal?

Debating wether i need to seal or not.
Currently i lean more towards not sealing and just looking after the stone.

If i seal my idea currently is to buy coat shellac and only seal the sides not the bottom.
Sealing sides and bottom feels like the water will be "trapped"
If i seal. Before or after lapping?

I go with the prevailing wisdom that you should always seal natural stones. I don't see much value in not sealing the back too. Spray lacquer has worked well for me. Just tape off the face with painters tape, put it upside down, and spray away (even coats of course). I do about 5 coats, 30 minutes dry time in between coats, dry for 24 hours before getting it wet again. I would flatten the top most of the way before sealing.

 

[lesslemming]

If it wasn’t mentioned before, I bought a stone from an e**y seller called Kobe-b**f and it was full of toxic holes. Beware

 

[banjo1071]

I would also recommend Yahoo auctions in Japan. You can get VERY decent stones for a fracture, esp is you avoid the perfectly shaped.....
EG this one is 28 Dollar right now...

 

[Steve56]

Yahoo Japan is great. I’ve gotten exactly two bad stones in about 7 years, one just didn’t have much grit and the other fell apart in my hands. I think that the latter stone had probably undergone freeze cycles because it had the typical saw marks on the side, and it would have never withstood the saw in the condition that I got it, though it was intact.

I‘ve gotten one stone off Yahoo that I believe was misdescribed. I was looking for ‘targets of opportunity’ for razor hones, and saw a 207 x 80 ‘hard mouth’ Ozaki that looked promising. Got it for a nice price and it was more like 200 x 70 and fairly soft for a razor hone. I just don’t think that the listing went with the stone. It happens on eNay too. That said, it’s big, it’s pure, it makes an unstreaked ji/ha (but high key) and is a fine grained knife finisher. So beat the seller with a wet noodle.

The biggest problem that you encounter with Yahoo stones is that some of them have been ‘oiled’ with a water-soluble machine tool lubricant called Duraron that ‘pro’ honers use. The stuff stinks to my nose though not strong, and it changes the colors of the stone. I can’t stand it. You can de-oil them with alcohol soaks, but it takes time.

 

[user 16756]

Yahoo Japan is great. I’ve gotten exactly two bad stones in about 7 years, one just didn’t have much grit and the other fell apart in my hands. I think that the latter stone had probably undergone freeze cycles because it had the typical saw marks on the side, and it would have never withstood the saw in the condition that I got it, though it was intact.

I‘ve gotten one stone off Yahoo that I believe was misdescribed. I was looking for ‘targets of opportunity’ for razor hones, and saw a 207 x 80 ‘hard mouth’ Ozaki that looked promising. Got it for a nice price and it was more like 200 x 70 and fairly soft for a razor hone. I just don’t think that the listing went with the stone. It happens on eNay too. That said, it’s big, it’s pure, it makes an unstreaked ji/ha (but high key) and is a fine grained knife finisher. So beat the seller with a wet noodle.

The biggest problem that you encounter with Yahoo stones is that some of them have been ‘oiled’ with a water-soluble machine tool lubricant called Duraron that ‘pro’ honers use. The stuff stinks to my nose though not strong, and it changes the colors of the stone. I can’t stand it. You can de-oil them with alcohol soaks, but it takes time.

Ive had mixed luck in the sense that not all my yahoo Japan purchases were great, but none were really abysmal, and probably my favorite ever stone cost me way less than it had any right to off an auction. I also got a habutae suita that looks suspiciously similar to a "very rare" stone. who knows.

The main issue is that good stones often cost good stone money, and I just prefer to buy my rocks from folks who I have some shared understanding with so that I have a better hit rate.

 

[Steve56]

Ive had mixed luck in the sense that not all my yahoo Japan purchases were great, but none were really abysmal, and probably my favorite ever stone cost me way less than it had any right to off an auction. I also got a habutae suita that looks suspiciously similar to a "very rare" stone. who knows.

The main issue is that good stones often cost good stone money, and I just prefer to buy my rocks from folks who I have some shared understanding with so that I have a better hit rate.

One stone category that isn’t substantially cheaper on Yahoo than in the west is suita. I think that’s because of the way traditional woodworking is done in Japan, but you won’t find high end suita at a substantial discount over western sellers. You will find far more of them though.

The other category is the NOS big, boxed, stamped Hatanaka /maruka stones. I don’t buy those with face stamps because it’s very easy to lap off $1,000 worth of ink. I’ve made that mistake before.

And, the stamps are free to use legally since Hatanaka passed, no one owns them anymore, so fake stamps are common. I always laugh at a maruka with lines in it. Real Kato marukas, IME, do not have lines. Purity is part of what ‘maruka’ meant.

 

[shobudonnie]

How reliable of a source is watanabe for jnats?

 

[naader]

How reliable of a source is watanabe for jnats?

Very if you like spending 3-5x what the stone is worth lol

 

[shobudonnie]

Very if you like spending 3-5x what the stone is worth lol

So what are your favorite sources? And also, what do you think about lacasadetoishi on instagram?

 

[naader]

So what are your favorite sources? And also, what do you think about lacasadetoishi on instagram?

Auctions used to be great, you can still find great deals there. I haven't bought from there in a while though. If you have friends in Japan or a lot of time to travel and look for rural ancient tool shops or get friendly with old collectors, those can be good sources. Other than that, lots of people sell what they don't use anymore. I used to a lot but I've slowed down heavily. Ed Thompson, tennentoishi on instagram is a great dude, I think your best option these days.

Not a fan of Gwee/lacasadetoishi, I don't feel like turning this into a drama thread but a loooot of older hobbyists share my sentiment.

 

[Heckel7302]

Yeah, tennentoishi.com is probably the best bet in the US for interesting stones that aren't overpriced. Otherwise check the BST here regularly, stones come up fairly often.

I've chatted with lacasadetoishi and he tends towards more collector type stones at high prices (full size bricks, no missing corners, etc). I don't have anything bad to say about him, but not the right stuff if you are just getting into jnats.