Glad to hear you are pulling through. Stay warm and stay safe.
Just Another Dam Project - Pass HHT on your kitchen knife
- Thread starter captaincaed
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Glad to hear you are pulling through. Stay warm and stay safe.
Ok new video. I cut up some chickens tonight with the thin little nakiri for giggles.
1) Does it still pass HHT?
2) Why are you cutting up so many chickens? Aren't you out of kitchens now?
I may not have watched the entire video and I may have assumed there were more. You know how it is with chickens. That said, 2 is a lot in my house. We're a "chicken a week" family.
captaincaed
(____((__________()~~~
Ffs.
I'm slowly raising my angle to get get a usable edge. Keeps rolling. Maybe this Mac steel just needs a beefier edge. Definitely not passing hht any more.
Learning a lot about angles this month.
After some extensive testing (this kept going and kept going and kept going)...
Getting a knife to HHT on a 3K stone plus strop on leather is very consistently doable with a patience and practice. Yesterday and the day before, I'd pushed the edges on 5 of my knives to HHT levels between 2 and 4, all on a Chosera 3K. The aforementioned AS Mori (HHT4), the equally aforementioned Hehzen whatever-the-hell-it-is (HHT2/3) plus a Shig Ku nakiri (HHT2/3), a Sukenari ZDP189 k-tip (HHT3) and a Hinoura AS gyuto (HHT4). Yes, being stuck inside with Covid and 3 pretty big kids leaves me far too much time to obesess and play.
Notes:
1. Angle is critical - this shocks nobody, but the angle of the edge is as important as a clean edge. Edges done over about 25 degrees inclusive are going to have much more difficulty passing this test.
2. Clean deburr and polish are also important - but there are exceptions. Burrs are sharp, after all, and a foil burr can pass HHT. It just won't cut food, and it may actually break on a hair.
3. Microbevel isn't important and might actually get in the way: it's increasing the angle, obviously. If you are REALLY good, and confident you can put one on that is less than a micron wide, go for it, if not, it's probably best to not microbevel the edge for this test. OTOH, do the test, then microbevel if you want a more durable edge. The obvious exception would be for a really hard steel: I put a small micro on the ZDP189 guyto, but that steel is so hard I was quite confident that a couple of light passes wouldn't wear even close to a micron-wide bevel into it.
4. How well the edge holds depends on just how narrow it is of course, how hard you use the knife (of course number 2) and, woohoo, "of course" 3, the steel. I decided to do this to a selection of knives exactly because the Mori held up so well the first time I managed an HHT edge. It didn't maintain HHT for more than two light preps, but it was still the sharpest knife on my strip for a number of sessions, including some decently hard plus not-hard stuff (leeks, carrots, onions, potatoes, shallots, garlic, radishes, cucumbers, tomatoes, squash). It was still gliding through tomatoes and whole unpeeled onions after at least 6 or 7 sessions. People are going to be amazed, I know, that AS takes a great edge and holds it pretty well. ZDP189 too - I pushed it to HHT3 + yesterday, did a full prep session, and it was still passing the test after.
Anyway, just my notes from my illness-fueled addiction. Better than going all Shining on the family.
Getting a knife to HHT on a 3K stone plus strop on leather is very consistently doable with a patience and practice. Yesterday and the day before, I'd pushed the edges on 5 of my knives to HHT levels between 2 and 4, all on a Chosera 3K. The aforementioned AS Mori (HHT4), the equally aforementioned Hehzen whatever-the-hell-it-is (HHT2/3) plus a Shig Ku nakiri (HHT2/3), a Sukenari ZDP189 k-tip (HHT3) and a Hinoura AS gyuto (HHT4). Yes, being stuck inside with Covid and 3 pretty big kids leaves me far too much time to obesess and play.
Notes:
1. Angle is critical - this shocks nobody, but the angle of the edge is as important as a clean edge. Edges done over about 25 degrees inclusive are going to have much more difficulty passing this test.
2. Clean deburr and polish are also important - but there are exceptions. Burrs are sharp, after all, and a foil burr can pass HHT. It just won't cut food, and it may actually break on a hair.
3. Microbevel isn't important and might actually get in the way: it's increasing the angle, obviously. If you are REALLY good, and confident you can put one on that is less than a micron wide, go for it, if not, it's probably best to not microbevel the edge for this test. OTOH, do the test, then microbevel if you want a more durable edge. The obvious exception would be for a really hard steel: I put a small micro on the ZDP189 guyto, but that steel is so hard I was quite confident that a couple of light passes wouldn't wear even close to a micron-wide bevel into it.
4. How well the edge holds depends on just how narrow it is of course, how hard you use the knife (of course number 2) and, woohoo, "of course" 3, the steel. I decided to do this to a selection of knives exactly because the Mori held up so well the first time I managed an HHT edge. It didn't maintain HHT for more than two light preps, but it was still the sharpest knife on my strip for a number of sessions, including some decently hard plus not-hard stuff (leeks, carrots, onions, potatoes, shallots, garlic, radishes, cucumbers, tomatoes, squash). It was still gliding through tomatoes and whole unpeeled onions after at least 6 or 7 sessions. People are going to be amazed, I know, that AS takes a great edge and holds it pretty well. ZDP189 too - I pushed it to HHT3 + yesterday, did a full prep session, and it was still passing the test after.
Anyway, just my notes from my illness-fueled addiction. Better than going all Shining on the family.
Yes officer that's the man right there!
Kawa
Senior Member
Nakiri: Vegetable meat knife
captaincaed
(____((__________()~~~
Not really. I pretty much hate the sticky suction feeling no matter what. For carbon/iron clad nothing beats patina. Nature's kasumi. I'll stop at 500-1k and then chop a couple pounds of onions. Monosteel a little further 1-4k depending on how the particular knife feels in use.
I know you weren't asking me but. I honestly feel like 4k is really where it starts to improve. Possibly some 3ks. Above that as far as performance it's just diminishing returns. However it won't hurt any, and it looks nice.
captaincaed
(____((__________()~~~
Yeah I found this too. One knife I had was jekyll and Hyde depending on patina. Hot beef roast seems pretty nice too.
I'm working on one that looked good on paper but needs some 220 grit love before it's serviceable.
captaincaed
(____((__________()~~~
My Aizu seems to leave a nice finish, first time I've messed with Jnats and polishing
Desert Rat
Senior Member
I got there with a coticule to black ark progression on AS steel. It took a few tries, I'm just not as steady as I used to be that's for sure.
captaincaed
(____((__________()~~~
Hot dang. Arguably higher grit stones, but if I'm honest I was going to try the same thing. I knew Moritaka has some wonky grinds but I did like the steel
Also my thesis is kicking my ass, and I haven't sharpened much this week.
Also my thesis is kicking my ass, and I haven't sharpened much this week.
Desert Rat
Senior Member
I tried pretty much the same progression on a Higonokami pocket knife. I couldn't get past a fiddle but the hair I have to work with is very fine.
My Moritaka required a faire bit of work out of the box, but it's simply amazing now. It's so thin that it feels like it would be fragile, but it's simply not. Crazy sharp edges last and last. Fit and finish are... rustic... to say the least, but the knife does knife things incredibly well.
Do you have a zero grind on you higonokami? That definitely helps a lot.
Desert Rat
Senior Member
Kind of, I finish it with a micro bevel though. When the micro bevel becomes to big for quick and fast touch ups I take it back down to zero and start the process all over.
I discovered that it's actually my wife's knife after not returning it to the bowl that has some pens, tape and odds-n ends. Apparently it's her go to for mail and boxes. The sharpest letter opener on the block...
Was you able to pass an HHT with yours and if so what did you use?
Desert Rat
Senior Member
I went back to my wife's Higonokami. I failed with a Nakayama Kita, coticule and an old JNAT barbers hone. I could get them to fiddle but just needed a little more. I even tried stropping on newspaper and that usually gives me a little bump but no dice. I then went to a vintage translucent ark on soap and water and it started whittling hairs. A newspaper strop might move the needle a bit from there I don't know.
Are all these Higonokami carbon knifes the same steel? I heard they were blue steel but what one?
Are all these Higonokami carbon knifes the same steel? I heard they were blue steel but what one?
captaincaed
(____((__________()~~~
Nice work. I had set my arks aside until I got a razor, then they came right back out and are here to stay
I think you must have a steady hand to whittle hair finishing a curved knife edge like so
I think you must have a steady hand to whittle hair finishing a curved knife edge like so
Kawa
Senior Member
I went back to my wife's Higonokami. I failed with a Nakayama Kita, coticule and an old JNAT barbers hone. I could get them to fiddle but just needed a little more. I even tried stropping on newspaper and that usually gives me a little bump but no dice. I then went to a vintage translucent ark on soap and water and it started whittling hairs. A newspaper strop might move the needle a bit from there I don't know.
Are all these Higonokami carbon knifes the same steel? I heard they were blue steel but what one?
No, there are at least 3 different kind of steels available.
SK-carbonsteel (whatever that is) @ 59 HRC
there is Aogami @ ? Hrc
And there is Shirogami @ 64 HRC
69 producten gevonden
Arent they all very thick behind the edge? Even a zero grind still makes a big angle inclusive. That, from what I read in this topic, doesn't help if you want to split hairs.
Desert Rat
Senior Member
Perhaps the thickness behind the edge and the more obtuse edge angle with a micro bevel results in more split hair vs cutting them out right?No, there are at least 3 different kind of steels available.
SK-carbonsteel (whatever that is) @ 59 HRC
there is Aogami @ ? Hrc
And there is Shirogami @ 64 HRC
69 producten gevonden
www.knivesandtools.nl
Arent they all very thick behind the edge? Even a zero grind still makes a big angle inclusive. That, from what I read in this topic, doesn't help if you want to split hairs.
The knife I was using is the lowest cost one I could find on ebay, so maybe the SK steel.
The inclusive angle and the cleanness of the apex work together I think. I have seen people split hairs with axes and chisels and plane irons, etc. Especially if you use a guided system to really help control the apex. There isn't any reason why you couldn't achieve the same results free hand. It is just a heck of a lot easier if you are dealing with a smaller inclusive bevel angle. Straight razors typically have a Goldilocks inclusive bevel angle of something like 14-18 degrees. Smaller than 14 degrees tends to peel your skin off with hardly any contact. Greater than 18 degrees has a tougher time popping hairs so you have to use a more aggressive cutting angle which also irritates the skin. The cutting edge of a knife is a little thicker. More like 20-25 degrees inclusive for even the most aggressive flat ground zero bevel. But it will still get you there if the apex is nice and clean. Go up past 25 degrees and the job becomes more difficult freehand but I don't think impossible. I have definitely gotten my deba there. The finer grained and harder the steel the easier it is to get a knife to develop and hold a nice crisp hair popping apex. Japanese paper steel should work well (regardless blue/white/yellow, zero bevel/micro bevel/convex bevel) because it is generally hard enough and finely grained enough to get there.
Desert Rat
Senior Member
Stringer, I never get to splitting hairs with razors and I didn't with the Moritaka either. The thinner blades simply cut the hair. Maybe it's all about bevel angle I don't know?
Aren't most kamisori's a little over twenty degrees? They are among the most reliable razors I have for passing HHT's and delivering smooth comfortable shaves. Half of that sentence is completely subjective though.
Aren't most kamisori's a little over twenty degrees? They are among the most reliable razors I have for passing HHT's and delivering smooth comfortable shaves. Half of that sentence is completely subjective though.
Desert Rat
Senior Member
OK I measured some Kmaisori's. They ranged form 17 to 21 so I think most are probably under twenty.
I'm just speculating mainly. I don't really know what's going on at the edge. I have honed about a 100 or so fleabay specials up. I very rarely get one that passes fiddling without going to the strop first. But then I can get it to pass HHT off of my bevel setter (Shapton Pro 1500), though I haven't tried to shave with it. From there 50 strokes on a coticule and I have a very comfortable shave.
I haven't done any kamisoris yet. I own one that someone sent me with a stone one time, but I never did anything with it. In general though, any loss of sharpness from a wider bevel is probably made up for with harder more refined steel.
Desert Rat
Senior Member
I'm going to experiment a little with HHT's and coarser stones, but I will be pretty much limited to naturals. I don't have much confidence that I can do it. I'm also going to look for an alternative to my wife's fine hair. I know my hair will pass a HHT much easier than hers but mine is in short supply.
