"Just one more..."

[Mr.Wizard]

I have a set of three more-or-less splash & go bench stones that realistically are all I need for anything besides initial thinning, but I find myself thinking about "just one more." I don't really have a target steel or function in mind, I just have a feeling I might be missing something by not having a mid-range stone. I even have stones in this range on the Edge Pro if it is only about edges so I suppose I want something that can do a bit of "polishing" too. Up to now I have bought stones only out of need; this is my first contemplation of getting a stone just for pleasure or the intangible.

This is my turn to ask the same question as these, which I have read and do not wish to fully rehash, but from a different starting point.

• Finishing stone for a nice toothy edge?
• Should I Add Another Intermediate Stone? Or is it worth upgrading?

My set is RockStar 320, King Neo #800, and Naniwa Hayabusa 4000. The Hayabusa performs finer than the rating as affirmed by others.

I also have the Naniwa Hayabusa / Falcon 4K and Fuji 8K, and I use them almost exclusively on straight razors. They both finish well above their stated grit ratings. The 4K is more like a 6K, and the 8K is more like a 10K.

The Hayabusa is (for me) definitly in the 5000 - 6000 grit--range, I think more like a 6000.

If I do get a stone to go between the King and Naniwa I want to make sure it complements these well. I want a splash & go stone as it is the convenience thereof that has me actually using them. Do you think the Kuromaku 2000 is this stone or is there something better? Some seem to like this better than the GlassStone/RockStar, while others prefer the latter; seeing as the Kuromaku is 5mm thicker and comes with a storage case it's my front runner. Or maybe with the King Neo finishing finer than the SP1k the RockStar 3000 is a better follow-up?

Complicating things, from the positive comments about them I want to eventually get an Arkansas stone of some form for edge finishing. Would I benefit from using a 2000 range stone to set up for that, or could I go from the King Neo just as well?

Refreshing my memory of the threads linked I suppose the Gouken Arata are worth discussion. The 2000 does not sound like what I want based on this:

Both the Chosera and the Naniwa Pro 2k are great stones, but only in a progression. Although the final result is in the JIS3k range, it doesn't work well as a final stone, even with stainless. For the last deburring, you want a clean stone, but the fresh abrasives are too aggressive to remove burr remnants without creating a new burr, even with the lightest touch. A Shapton Pro 2k, even when much coarser, works better in that respect.

I worry that the 3000, also reported as acting finer than its rating, will be too similar to the Hayabusa?

 

[NotAddictedYet]

only 3 stones after 14 years on KKF?

Kuromaku 2000 is my go-to sharpening finishing stone, I usually don't go to higher grits. IMHO the finish it leaves polishing is not half bad either.

 

[Mr.Wizard]

Poverty, mate. Poverty. I started with Cerax 320 and King 1200 but I find both too soft and too slow to use now. I also have a large silicon carbide stone for thinning.

 

[1315]

Poverty? I'd think you'd be retired on your own tropical island (Wizard Isle,made of coticule?) from the royalties off your excellent chart, no?

 

[Rangen]

Considering everything you've said, if I were to pick a "next stone," it would be a soft Ark. Different from what you have, complementary, not expensive. You could go straight to it for touch ups, and, yes, straight from the Neo 800 or even the 320 if dealing with a bevel that needed more work. If you don't like oil, apparently propylene glycol works, is inexpensive, and allows for a water-based cleanup.

Throwing "polishing" into the mix complicates things, and the soft Ark wouldn't help you any there AFAIK. But I'll leave that side to people who know polishing. For me, I've decided that so far real polishing isn't for me, but I still need to make my knives look respectable after thinning. So I use a sequence of sandpaper.

 

[Mr.Wizard]

Poverty? I'd think you'd be retired on your own tropical island (Wizard Isle,made of coticule?) from the royalties off your excellent chart, no?

There are no takers. It has been almost a year since I have sold a print. Pretty depressing to be frank.

 

[Fellax]

Maybe you can think about taking a Belgian blue... But when you try natural stones a world of expensive stones opens to you...

 

[deltaplex]

I have a set of three more-or-less splash & go bench stones that realistically are all I need for anything besides initial thinning, but I find myself thinking about "just one more." I don't really have a target steel or function in mind, I just have a feeling I might be missing something by not having a mid-range stone. I even have stones in this range on the Edge Pro if it is only about edges so I suppose I want something that can do a bit of "polishing" too. Up to now I have bought stones only out of need; this is my first contemplation of getting a stone just for pleasure or the intangible.

This is my turn to ask the same question as these, which I have read and do not wish to fully rehash, but from a different starting point.

• Finishing stone for a nice toothy edge?
• Should I Add Another Intermediate Stone? Or is it worth upgrading?

My set is RockStar 320, King Neo #800, and Naniwa Hayabusa 4000. The Hayabusa performs finer than the rating as affirmed by others.



If I do get a stone to go between the King and Naniwa I want to make sure it complements these well. I want a splash & go stone as it is the convenience thereof that has me actually using them. Do you think the Kuromaku 2000 is this stone or is there something better? Some seem to like this better than the GlassStone/RockStar, while others prefer the latter; seeing as the Kuromaku is 5mm thicker and comes with a storage case it's my front runner. Or maybe with the King Neo finishing finer than the SP1k the RockStar 3000 is a better follow-up?

Complicating things, from the positive comments about them I want to eventually get an Arkansas stone of some form for edge finishing. Would I benefit from using a 2000 range stone to set up for that, or could I go from the King Neo just as well?

Refreshing my memory of the threads linked I suppose the Gouken Arata are worth discussion. The 2000 does not sound like what I want based on this:

I worry that the 3000, also reported as acting finer than its rating, will be too similar to the Hayabusa?

I vote for getting an ark as that intermediate stone. I only use my synths in this grit range for polishing because the naturals in this range are wildly good for edges.

 

[Nemo]

Belgian Blue Whetstone is a great finishing stone and relitavely affordable as far as natural stones go. "Relitavely" is doing a bit of work in that sentence. It's a hard stone that wears slowly. The feedback takes a little getting used to- it's almost "screechy". It likes a little slurry to cut well.

It's a garnet stone and the garnets are larger than those in a coticule, but because garnets are roughly spherical, they produce a qiute fine result. Mine produces edges I guess in the 5-6K range, but with a bit of bite. It's said to be a stone that minuses burr formation and excells at deburring and this gels with my experience with it. The only times I have been able to get Western stainless to cut paper towel on the diagonal have been with a BBW.

It's great for simple steels and medium alloy stainless. Edges on blue1, blue2, AS and ginsan are fantastic. The garnets are around the hardness of AlOx, so I don't tend to use it high alloy steels (VG10, SG2 and above). For these, I use a diamond fine stone.

This is the other finishing stone you could consider, especially if you do sharpen a lot of high alloy steels. For steels like VG10, SG2 and SRS15, I can get a slightly better result with diamonds and it is a bit easier to achieve. For HAP40, it's a noticeably better result. You can follow a traditional medium stone with a fine diamond stone.

I use Naniwa Diamond 6k, but 3k would probably also work. The feedback is a bit grating but it's definitely there. The stone does load up a bit but there is an included SiC dressing stone.

Other diamond stones (that I haven't tried) that get a lot of love on the forums include JKI 1k and 6k (which are cheaper than Naniwa IIRC) and Venev (which can be hard to find). I've read both good and bad reports about Nanohone diamond stones but once again, no personal experience.

 

[calibrated_octopus]

If you want to try a Shapton pro 2K - I’m happy to send one your way.

I’m no edgxpert, but for a while it was the only stone I used - and it’s a consistent finishing stone for me still.

 

[Mr.Wizard]

If you want to try a Shapton pro 2K - I’m happy to send one your way.

Much appreciated. However with the price of these lower and the cost of shipping higher than they both used to be it's probably not efficient; we'd spend over half the value of stone shipping it back and forth I think.

 

[Mr.Wizard]

@Rangen why soft Arkansas rather than hard? I've been leaning toward the latter from this:

I could go a loooong way with a Soft Ark if I wanted/had to but for this they're still just a touch rougher than I want.

But the Hard Ark is jusssst right. I've only had the one I have now and I've had it for several years. This may well be the end of my experimenting. Admittedly, I have a bias for Arkansas stones but that is as much earned as I became a better sharpener as it is nostalgia of my youth. These are great stones that excel with this class of steels

Soft Ark, hard Ark and especially BBW don't really sound particularly pleasant feeling but more utilitarian. Do you disagree? With this potential purchase I am seeking something I want to use, rather than only a means to an end. "Zen of sharpening" and all that I guess. I enjoy the feel of using the King Neo 800 but it's just a bit thirsty, just a bit coarse for frequent use. The Hayabusa is a bit too fine for my touch-ups used alone and I don't care for the feel of it as much as other stones unless I raise a good slurry which seems wasteful if I'm just doing one or two.

For utilitarian edge work I would prefer a 6" * 1" stone that fits the Edge Pro. Those should be a lot less expensive, let me have extra control if I need it, and work great as a hand-held touch-up stone especially for smaller knives. I tried to buy Arkansas stones in that size from Dan's Whetstone as they make them for the EZ Hone, but they refused to sell them separately.

 

[M1k3]

Utilitarian novaculite, in my opinion, would be a Washita.

For Edge Pro format, Hard or Soft Ark, a Coticule or BBW would be a great option.

 

[HumbleHomeCook]

@Rangen why soft Arkansas rather than hard? I've been leaning toward the latter from this:


Soft Ark, hard Ark and especially BBW don't really sound particularly pleasant feeling but more utilitarian. Do you disagree? With this potential purchase I am seeking something I want to use, rather than only a means to an end. "Zen of sharpening" and all that I guess. I enjoy the feel of using the King Neo 800 but it's just a bit thirsty, just a bit coarse for frequent use. The Hayabusa is a bit too fine for my touch-ups used alone and I don't care for the feel of it as much as other stones unless I raise a good slurry which seems wasteful if I'm just doing one or two.

For utilitarian edge work I would prefer a 6" * 1" stone that fits the Edge Pro. Those should be a lot less expensive, let me have extra control if I need it, and work great as a hand-held touch-up stone especially for smaller knives. I tried to buy Arkansas stones in that size from Dan's Whetstone as they make them for the EZ Hone, but they refused to sell them separately.

For a mid-range stone, I agree with @Rangen that a soft Ark is really hard to beat. It's an extremely versatile stone that can do some edge work but also leave a nice utilitarian edge.

My fondness for the hard Ark is in finishing. I love the edge they leave. A hint of roughness but refined. They're also pretty easy to control burr formation.

BBW's are also very nice but a little more on the sharpening side than my Hard Arks.

Also note that I use my Arks with honing oil.

 

[Rangen]

@Rangen why soft Arkansas rather than hard? I've been leaning toward the latter from this:


Soft Ark, hard Ark and especially BBW don't really sound particularly pleasant feeling but more utilitarian. Do you disagree? With this potential purchase I am seeking something I want to use, rather than only a means to an end. "Zen of sharpening" and all that I guess. I enjoy the feel of using the King Neo 800 but it's just a bit thirsty, just a bit coarse for frequent use. The Hayabusa is a bit too fine for my touch-ups used alone and I don't care for the feel of it as much as other stones unless I raise a good slurry which seems wasteful if I'm just doing one or two.

A few things to unpack here.

I have either no experience with hard Arks, or, if you accept the posting that someone made saying that what used to be sold as soft Arks would be called hard Arks today, I have one, but I'm not really used to it yet. So I can't say much about hard Arks (except translucents, which are a different sort of topic). What I can say is that my Dan's soft Ark suits me very well. I do not wish for it to be harder, nor finer.

I like the feel of it. The feeling of sharpening on a stone is very important to me, which is why I do a lot of sharpening on JNats (the best feel!), and no sharpening on diamond plates, which feel so awful to sharpen on that my teeth feel bad just remembering it.

Nor would I call the feel of sharpening on a BBW "utilitarian." Far from it. It feels creamy and pleasant. If I have any objection, it is that sometimes it feels too slippery to help me locate the bevel, especially the tiny kind that turn up on convex-ground knives.

 

[Rangen]

My fondness for the hard Ark is in finishing. I love the edge they leave. A hint of roughness but refined. They're also pretty easy to control burr formation.

It sounds as though you use hard Arks in the same place that I would use a suita or tomae. I will have to start regarding my old Pike soft-but-actually-hard ark through that lens.

 

[HumbleHomeCook]

It sounds as though you use hard Arks in the same place that I would use a suita or tomae. I will have to start regarding my old Pike soft-but-actually-hard ark through that lens.

I keep a hard Ark right by my cutting board. It has become my finisher of choice across pretty much all my simple steels, carbon or stainless.

 

[daveb]

edgxpert

Word of the day. 10 points.

I not one.

 

[Mr.Wizard]

Another related discussion found while continuing to read: https://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/threads/2-3k-stone-eu.43575/

I suspect a Soft Arkansas is in my future but I don't know if it's what I want right now. Today I got a Fine India surrogate and I shall see if I become annoyed with oil as I was when I tried it learning to sharpen, before I knew anything. If using oil pleases me now I would be inclined to pair it with a Soft Arkansas, but if I find myself avoiding oil again maybe I would be better served by something else, my understanding being that oil is preferred on these.

The BBW is interesting for working with water but it appears to be more than I am willing to spend on this, and as one who still struggles to get the best edges freehand "sometimes it feels too slippery to help me locate the bevel" might be a problem.

I see the zeitgeist that the best culinary edges on simple steels come from natural stones I just don't know if I am at that point in the journey. A poor metaphor: I feel like I am asking about new tires for the bicycle I just took training wheels off and people are telling me I should try skateboarding. That probably makes it sound like I am ungrateful or think the advice inappropriate, but that's not actually what I mean. Rather I haven't quite worked out how this all goes together.

I want(ed) to get a stone that is at least as convenient and pleasant to use as the King Neo while taking off less metal if I use it simply because I want to practice rather than I need to, and which will be easier for me to get a really sharp edge from. I want(ed) something that can work by itself, or follow the King Neo, or precede the Hayabusa, all with aplomb and without having to switch between water and oil. I want(ed) something that could refine the rather dull finish left by the King Neo should I want to make a knife a bit prettier and enjoy the process of doing so.

Are these unrealistic expectations?

 

[HumbleHomeCook]

When using oil, remember you don't need the stone slathered like with water. Just need enough soaked into the surface to prevent the swarf from embedding. I use an eye dropper to apply mine and then rub it in with my finger.

 

[Rangen]

I want(ed) to get a stone that is at least as convenient and pleasant to use as the King Neo while taking off less metal if I use it simply because I want to practice rather than I need to, and which will be easier for me to get a really sharp edge from. I want(ed) something that can work by itself, or follow the King Neo, or precede the Hayabusa, all with aplomb and without having to switch between water and oil. I want(ed) something that could refine the rather dull finish left by the King Neo should I want to make a knife a bit prettier and enjoy the process of doing so.

Are these unrealistic expectations?

No. A Shapton Pro or Glass or (probably, I don't have those) RockStar 2000 would fit your requirements nicely.

 

[M1k3]

Another related discussion found while continuing to read: https://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/threads/2-3k-stone-eu.43575/

I suspect a Soft Arkansas is in my future but I don't know if it's what I want right now. Today I got a Fine India surrogate and I shall see if I become annoyed with oil as I was when I tried it learning to sharpen, before I knew anything. If using oil pleases me now I would be inclined to pair it with a Soft Arkansas, but if I find myself avoiding oil again maybe I would be better served by something else, my understanding being that oil is preferred on these.

The BBW is interesting for working with water but it appears to be more than I am willing to spend on this, and as one who still struggles to get the best edges freehand "sometimes it feels too slippery to help me locate the bevel" might be a problem.

I see the zeitgeist that the best culinary edges on simple steels come from natural stones I just don't know if I am at that point in the journey. A poor metaphor: I feel like I am asking about new tires for the bicycle I just took training wheels off and people are telling me I should try skateboarding. That probably makes it sound like I am ungrateful or think the advice inappropriate, but that's not actually what I mean. Rather I haven't quite worked out how this all goes together.

I want(ed) to get a stone that is at least as convenient and pleasant to use as the King Neo while taking off less metal if I use it simply because I want to practice rather than I need to, and which will be easier for me to get a really sharp edge from. I want(ed) something that can work by itself, or follow the King Neo, or precede the Hayabusa, all with aplomb and without having to switch between water and oil. I want(ed) something that could refine the rather dull finish left by the King Neo should I want to make a knife a bit prettier and enjoy the process of doing so.

Are these unrealistic expectations?

https://www.yuisenri.com/products/k...ws_oJ_99i1f_VWG0ZluomcUuWlcGrikjjJ-bnmvxZcCIr

https://carbonknifeco.com/products/...qEAouIsM5tOuhazcIy6V1geeWWFrFD_ja8U3IAZjjCdhP

https://hidatool.com/item/2694

 

[Mr.Wizard]

@M1k3 is the King Hyper a splash-and-go, soaker, or somewhere between?

 

[Hella Bread]

@M1k3 is the King Hyper a splash-and-go, soaker, or somewhere between?

soaker

 

[Mr.Wizard]

I like the shapton rockstar better than my pro 2000, and i liked the pro version a lot. A five minute soak makes it a much different stone than just using it as a splash and go, it turns creamier, but it’s also great as a splash and go. More like a traditional shapton

I also preferred the feel of the rockstar 2k to the pro 2k, but both are excellent stones.

@rickbern and @Chasingsharpness would you kindly tell me what you prefer about the RockStar 2000 over the Pro/Kuromaku 2000? Searching the forum there seems to be a slight preference for the Pro over the Glass Stone, and I wonder if the RockStar feels different from Glass or if this is just personal preference. The most fully articulated review I could find is from Steampunk, quoted below. Does that sound like the RockStar you know?

Shapton Pro 2000 -

2K is a sweet-spot in the Shapton range… The 2K Pro in particular, is creamy deliciousness. It’s a fast, tactile, extremely dish resistant, true splash & go 2000 grit stone, with a narrow grit spread, resists loading, and did I say it feels amazing? The 2K Pro is in that same sort of range as the 4K Glass Stones. Most Shapton stones are effective, but rather bland in terms of how they feel. These ones aren’t. These ones are special.

Shapton Glass Stone 2000 -

The Glass 2K is actually quite a different stone than the Pro 2K… Where the Pro-line starts feeling nice around the 2K range, the Glass range doesn’t start feeling truly creamy until 3K. The 2K Glass is a hard, slate-like stone, which is even more dish resistant and faster cutting than the 2K Pro on high-carbide steels, but trades that added precision and performance for a slightly worse feel, and increased loading/glazing.

 

[rickbern]

@rickbern and @Chasingsharpness would you kindly tell me what you prefer about the RockStar 2000 over the Pro/Kuromaku 2000? Searching the forum there seems to be a slight preference for the Pro over the Glass Stone, and I wonder if the RockStar feels different from Glass or if this is just personal preference. The more fully articulated review I could find is from Steampunk, quoted below. Does that sound like the RockStar you know?

I did in the post you quoted

A five minute soak makes it a much different stone than just using it as a splash and go, it turns creamier, but it’s also great as a splash and go

 

[spaceconvoy]

i feel like the pro 1500 is what you're looking for. it's the creamiest shapton i've tried in the mid range, more similar to the neo 800 than the rest

i own the neo 800, pro 1000, 1500, and 2000, and a glass 500. so i haven't tried a glass or rockstar 2000, but i seriously doubt they're as creamy as the 1500 pro. it's borderline unshapton-like

 

[NakiridAndAfraid]

I like the Suehiro 3k. It only needs to soak for just a few minutes, leaves a nice edge that looks good and shiny. They are under 50 USD on Amazon. There is also Altstone, made by Suehiro but less expensive than their brand. I have the 8k, and I can't find any difference in quality from my Suehiro 3k and 6k stones.

 

[Mr.Wizard]

I did in the post you quoted

A five minute soak makes it a much different stone than just using it as a splash and go, it turns creamier, but it’s also great as a splash and go

Pardon me, I am just trying to understand. Do you mean a five minute soak make it creamier than the Pro 2000, or that you can choose its nature to be creamy similar to the Pro or harder feeling without it, while the Pro has only one nature?

 

[Mr.Wizard]

@NakiridAndAfraid I've never heard of Altstone before and there is only one post beside yours even mentioning them. Is this new?