just when I was getting more confident at sharpening

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chefwp

chefwp

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My sharpening journey until yesterday was positive, up to Saturday when I set up shop to remove some rust on the edge of my sujihiki. While I had the stones out I did some touchups and stropping on a half dozen of so knives, and got them all shaving sharp. I was pleased and feeling confident.

That was all until yesterday when a friend dropped by with some knives that I agreed to help them sharpen.
The first was a Misen chef knife. It looked nice from a distance, heavy but had a real nice shape, until you looked closely at the choil, this baby was super thick. A paper test confirms that the paper was way sharper than this knife! I started on a sharp pebble 400, a stone I hadn't used much since I got it, conclusion: this stone sucks... I moved to shapton glass 220 to 320, to shapton pro 1000, conclusion: I must not be as good at this as I thought the day before, I could not put a keen edge on this knife. I got it a lot sharper, it was sharp and toothy enough to make easy work of tomatoes, but I was not happy when doing a paper test. Next up was what I think was a Shun petty, maybe 130-140mm, hard to tell because there were no markings, but the handle and steel looked like it. I thought, "well this should be VG10, I sharpened that steel yesterday on my Yaxell petty, this should be easier" Well I was wrong again, took the same progression as the MIsen, almost the same results. Maybe the lesson here is to never volunteer to sharpen someone else's knives...

Here's a question. Should I invest in a 400-500 decent grit stone to replace what I think is that worthless Sharp Pebble 400, or should I just stick with the Shapton Glass 220/320 and go to the 1000 after that?

The one victory here was I think I convinced my friend to purchase an Akifusa 210mm gyuto in Aogami Super... :cool:
 
Nice going on the Akifusa. :)

Along with being thick, they were probably dull as hell to boot and the soft stainless on the Misen doesn't help either. This is where I go coarse. Like a coarse Cystolon or diamond. Get the apex established down low.
 
HumbleHomeCook said:
Nice going on the Akifusa. :)

Along with being thick, they were probably dull as hell to boot and the soft stainless on the Misen doesn't help either. This is where I go coarse. Like a coarse Cystolon or diamond. Get the apex established down low.
Click to expand...
Please explain this to me like I'm 9 years old. I would think that soft steel would cut faster and show results quicker, in other words, "be easier to sharpen." I never had an issue getting my old Wusthofs in serviceable shape quickly, but you are probably onto something in that I would never allow them to get into such horrible states of dullness.
 
Softer steels are actually slower. They're more abrasion resistant because they are gummy and much more difficult to deburr. And thinner edges are just that much better. Axe vs. razor blade type thing.

I just don't like messing around when it comes to other people's knife-like objects. I just drop down low and find an edge (read as "make one") and then I won't go back up too far in grit.
 
I should add, that yes, there comes a point in hardness (and carbide type) when the balance of things begins to shift and they start becoming more challenging. Just another example of hardness only being one factor in a much bigger equation.
 
HumbleHomeCook said:
Softer steels are actually slower. They're more abrasion resistant because they are gummy and much more difficult to deburr. And thinner edges are just that much better. Axe vs. razor blade type thing.

I just don't like messing around when it comes to other people's knife-like objects. I just drop down low and find an edge (read as "make one") and then I won't go back up too far in grit.
Click to expand...
Thanks for the reply. Sadly for my friend I didn't have time to undertake a major thinning project that the Misen needed. It needed a water cooled grinder, which I do not have. I was always curious about those knives because they look nice, curiosity satisfied, stay away.
 
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chefwp said:
Thanks for the reply. Sadly for my friend I didn't have time to undertake a major thinning project that the Misen needed. It needed a water cooled grinder, which I do not have. I was always curious about those knives because they look nice, curiosity satisfied, stay away.
Click to expand...

You should ask @daveb for his thoughts on the Misen knife. :)
 
I had a similar experience last week, sharpened nine or 10 of my knives, was very happy with seven of them, two were a bit rushed, but had to move on to other things. Sharpened two of my sisters cheap zwillings the next day, took forever. Shapton 320 to King 500 to SG2000. Ended up stopping at the King because it was taking so long. That’s when I was able to get them cutting newsprint cleanly…honestly gave up on paper towel. Sharp enough For food and way better than before I guess.
 
Maybe think about a Worksharp KO for your friends' knives as it would be a lot faster to get to a sharp edge to cut tomatoes. You would be done in minutes. I can attest thick knives work well.
I like knives with weight as it feels good to me cutting. I guess it is kind of like the cleaver guys.
 
@chefwp Regarding your friend's thicker Misen blade:

I suspect it's probably thicker BTE (behind the edge) than you're used to with your blades.

If this is the case, you'll MOST LIKELY needed to increase your sharpening angle to match closer what the blade already had. This will make your "sharpening" work much easier.

For Example:
If you're trying to put a screaming sharp 15° edge on a thick blade that has a 25° Edge...
Then it's a LONG uphill battle of (Phase 1) material removal (thinning) from 25° > 15° before you'll be able to go to (Phase 2) sharpening the blade, using your normal methodology of YOUR maintained knives.
 
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ch_br said:
@chefwp Regarding your friend's thicker Misen blade:

I suspect it's probably thicker BTE (behind the edge) than you're used to with your blades.

If this is the case, you'll MOST LIKELY needed to increase your angle to match closer what the blade already had. This will make your "sharpening" work much easier.

For Example:
If you're trying to put a screaming sharp 15° edge on a thick blade that has a 25° Edge.

Its a LONG uphill battle of material removal (thinning) from 25° > 15° before you'll be able to sharpen it, using your normal methodology of YOUR maintained knives.
Click to expand...
It is easy with a Workshrp KO to change angles. It is the same sharpening process just change the angle before you start.

"Friends" only bring you really dull knives.

I did figure out some knives like a Cutco kitchen knife would not get sharp at 15 degrees and at 20 degrees it got sharper. But using a Worksharp it is easy to fix.
 
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coxhaus said:
Maybe think about a Worksharp KO for your friends' knives as it would be a lot faster to get to a sharp edge to cut tomatoes. You would be done in minutes. I can attest thick knives work well.
I like knives with weight as it feels good to me cutting. I guess it is kind of like the cleaver guys.
Click to expand...
It's a good suggestion, but I have no need of that, but I could pass that on to them, thanks.
 
More_Gyutos said:
Sharp enough For food and way better than before I guess.
Click to expand...
Yeah, that's exactly when I stopped, wasn't prepared to do a marathon.
ch_br said:
I suspect it's probably thicker BTE (behind the edge) than you're used to with your blades.
Click to expand...
This is spot on, it was super fat.
ch_br said:
If this is the case, you'll MOST LIKELY needed to increase your angle to match closer what the blade already had. This will make your "sharpening" work much easier.
Click to expand...
I did this after trying to thin a bit at a low angle, but I honestly wasn't getting far with that even with the SG 220.
 
I had a similar experience this weekend. Went to my dad's place to sharpen his [crappy stainless] knives.

I thought a SG500 would easily take care of them so I only brought that. Took me like 20min and a lot of pressure to put a decent edge on the first knife. I gave up on the others before starting :D

With all the recent discussions about diamond stones... I think this is a case where they would make a big difference (vs. regular stones), no? On crappy stainless knives, I mean. I saw someone on IG recently sharpening a cheap parer with JKI 800 diamond, took like 2min.
 
Choppin said:
I had a similar experience this weekend. Went to my dad's place to sharpen his [crappy stainless] knives.

I thought a SG500 would easily take care of them so I only brought that. Took me like 20min and a lot of pressure to put a decent edge on the first knife. I gave up on the others before starting :D

With all the recent discussions about diamond stones... I think this is a case where they would make a big difference (vs. regular stones), no? On crappy stainless knives, I mean. I saw someone on IG recently sharpening a cheap parer with JKI 800 diamond, took like 2min.
Click to expand...
Yep, huge difference. I've switched entirely to diamond for all stainless, both because it works, and because I don't like the slippery feel of stainless on other stones.

Recently, my wife's two main knives became dull. The Tojiro brightened right up on a 6000 Naniwa diamond stone. The old crappy stainless steel beater did just right with the BBB 400. Both were very quick. For the crappy stainless one, there was no temptation to move on to a higher grit stone, which would have been foolishly aspirational for that steel.

I do really need to explore India and Crystolon stones, though. I did step 1, buy them, and need to advance to step 2, actually use them. Same for some SiC stones I got from Gritomatic.
 
Rangen said:
India combo stone turned out to be just the thing for sharpening some beaten-up utility shears that a neighbor brought over. Nice stone for that kind of work, and downright amazing for the price.
Click to expand...
and @HumbleHomeCook
What are these India stones that y'all are referring to? Are they the Norton India oil stones?
 
chefwp said:
and @HumbleHomeCook
What are these India stones that y'all are referring to? Are they the Norton India oil stones?
Click to expand...

Yes. Norton Crystolon and India. They are oil impregnated but you can use them with water if you want. Some guys even work the oil out of them. I still use oil from time to time to keep them from clogging or glazing. I do not store them with my water stones.

But, they are great low grit, fast, affordable performers. @M1k3 is an India fan.
 
I reach for an old tri-hone with 2 1/2" x 11 1/2" Crystolon stones if I have real work to do. Short of using power equipment it's about as quick as I have ever found. Them big stones can be used with just a holder also, the extra realestate is a huge advantage to me.
 
Desert Rat said:
I reach for an old tri-hone with 2 1/2" x 11 1/2" Crystolon stones if I have real work to do. Short of using power equipment it's about as quick as I have ever found. Them big stones can be used with just a holder also, the extra realestate is a huge advantage to me.
Click to expand...




Of my 30 or so India/Crystolons my favorite version is this one from sharpeningsupplies.com at 8"x3".

https://www.sharpeningsupplies.com/Norton-Crystolon-Bench-Stone-8-x-3-P24.aspx

I feel the same way about the extra real estate. I'll have to find one of those foot long ones.
 
Desert Rat said:
Sharpening Supplies has them and the extra long holders.

Don't trip over a Norton tri-hone if you find one on the cheap, it's a good set up.
Click to expand...
Sharpening Supplies has house branded versions of the stones also. I couldn't tell the difference between them and Norton branded ones.
 
M1k3 said:
Sharpening Supplies has house branded versions of the stones also. I couldn't tell the difference between them and Norton branded ones.
Click to expand...
Thanks for that information, I'm getting to that point and have been wondering about those stones.

I purchased a set of replacement Arks from them and decided I liked them better on the large holder. They were rebranded Dan's.
 
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