Kagekiyo Ginsan Smiths

[pitted_soul]

Gang,

I have 2 Kagekiyo Ginasans. They have the same sharpener (Nishida) but different smiths. I assume Nakagawa is one of them. Is the other Yamatsuka?

One is a wide bevel and one has no shinogi.

I was curious if there could be someone else they could use. I couldn't say which is the better cutter. The wide bevel is thinner BTE (by degrees), it has an urushi lacquer handle.

Which one did which?

 

[chiffonodd]

If you look up Nakagawa ginsan in general, I think you will always find a wide bevel geometry, at least from what I've seen.

 

[pitted_soul]

If you look up Nakagawa ginsan in general, I think you will always find a wide bevel geometry, at least from what I've seen.

I'm more familiar with Nakagawa than Yamatsuka. I have a K-tip gyuto that's a wide bevel and forged by Yamatsuka but you're right, I don't think I've ever seen a non-wide bevel from him, but is that more the sharpeners or Nakagawa?

So this brings up an interesting question, at what stage does the knife go to the sharpener? Specifically, what has the forger done or not done that the sharpener finishes. What parts of the blade are "finished" before it does to the sharpener?

It probably varies.

 

[chiffonodd]

So this brings up an interesting question, at what stage does the knife go to the sharpener? Specifically, what has the forger done or not done that the sharpener finishes. What parts of the blade are "finished" before it does to the sharpener?

It probably varies.

Great question! @JBroida has sold kagekiyo knives for a long time under the gesshin line, I'm sure he knows how much of the wide bevel cross sectional geometry is a product of forging and how much of it is ground by the sharpener.

 

[dabes]

The only way to really tell(without asking retailers/makers) afaik is the font of the steel type kanji, for example Nakagawa's font size on b1 is larger than Tanaka's.

 

[EShin]

I'm more familiar with Nakagawa than Yamatsuka. I have a K-tip gyuto that's a wide bevel and forged by Yamatsuka but you're right, I don't think I've ever seen a non-wide bevel from him, but is that more the sharpeners or Nakagawa?

So this brings up an interesting question, at what stage does the knife go to the sharpener? Specifically, what has the forger done or not done that the sharpener finishes. What parts of the blade are "finished" before it does to the sharpener?

It probably varies.

You could adjust the forging and initial shaping done by the smith for this but at least in Sakai (and quite generally I believe) that’s not how it’s done. A lot of wide bevels have a faux shinogi in which case it’s done at the very end of the process, not at the beginning.

As for the initial question, I only know of mr. Nakagawa making ginsan for Kagekiyo so if it’s not him, probably mr. Yamatsuka but why don’t you ask baba hamono directly?

 

[Yoshi]

I've asked baba this question when I went to their store this year. I was told almost most of their ginsan are done exclusively by nakagawa

 

[pitted_soul]

Alright, I've been thrown for a loop. Doing some digging, it turns out that it doesn't seem to be the same sharpener but the same kanji is on there. I'm probably misinterpreting something. On the Right knife side, when held in my hand, the Kanjis are the same on the right side, but the left side Kanji is different, so I assumed different smiths.

Now I find out that the walnut handled line was sharpened by Myojin. So I'm thinking that @Yoshi is right (nakagawa all the way), and it was, in fact (infarct), different sharpeners. I'm thinking the wide beveled one is Nishida and the shinogi-less one is Myojin and Nakagawa forged both (combing Yoshi's and @EShin statements).

I did email Baba to get specifics, thanks for that Tidbit. I was curious who did their White 1 as I have one in that too, that's my follow-up question to them. I am assuming it wasn't Tanaka because it had a different kanji than the Blue 1 damascus, but now I'm not so sure.

 

[JBroida]

i think you may be wrong about them being the same sharpener, though nishida-san does both wide bevel and non-wide bevel. He does mainly do wide bevel now, and myojin-san seems to be responsible for the non-wide bevel stuff. Can vary from order to order and request to request.

edit- didn't see the above post, but pretty much covers what i said

 

[jedy617]

I have used both nakagawa ginsan and yamatsuka ginsan and find them both really nice so far. Have not noticed a huge difference in my light use of them. Couldn't say I would prefer one to the other. Both my hado and tadokoro are great. Love kagekiyo of course

 

[PPIIBBSS]

The only way to really tell(without asking retailers/makers) afaik is the font of the steel type kanji, for example Nakagawa's font size on b1 is larger than Tanaka's.

This is incredibly useful info. Even if it's not a rule, but only a trend, this could really help with some knife ID!

 

[blokey]

We can do this by elimination, for starters it’s not me

 

[M1k3]

We can do this by elimination, for starters it’s not me

1
2
3
NOT IT!

 

[jedy617]

I only do the AS

 

[dabes]

This is incredibly useful info. Even if it's not a rule, but only a trend, this could really help with some knife ID!

Just compared my Tanaka + Nakagawa and I had it backwards, Tanaka's font is larger than Nakagawas. It looks like Yamatsuka and Nakagawa's ginsan stamps should be pretty easy to discern, the gin and san characters are clearly different from each other. It's like Yamatsuka has a smaller font and it's bolded.

Nakagawa Hamono Ginsan

Hado ginsan

 

[warabitimmy]

Just compared my Tanaka + Nakagawa and I had it backwards, Tanaka's font is larger than Nakagawas. It looks like Yamatsuka and Nakagawa's ginsan stamps should be pretty easy to discern, the gin and san characters are clearly different from each other. It's like Yamatsuka has a smaller font and it's bolded.

Nakagawa Hamono Ginsan
View attachment 324799


Hado ginsan
View attachment 324800

Interesting pattern and good eye but I spoke with Kagekiyo and they confirmed that some of their convex ginsan knives that have more bold than thin stamps was Nakagawa's ginsan.. I guess it's inconsistent

 

[warabitimmy]

We can do this by elimination, for starters it’s not me

LOL I went ahead and spoke with Kagekiyo about the convex grind ginsan! They said that the ginsan convex series will always be Nakagawa x Myojin

 

[pitted_soul]

LOL I went ahead and spoke with Kagekiyo about the convex grind ginsan! They said that the ginsan convex series will always be Nakagawa x Myojin

Is that because it's never being done again?

 

[warabitimmy]

Is that because it's never being done again?

Nope as in the series will continue being nakagawa myojin! Just that the craftsmen are busy so not a lot of stock

 

[JBroida]

yeah... i dont think people realize how busy some of these guys really are... its mind-boggling when you go to their shops and see what they've got going on

 

[alexanderras]

Nope as in the series will continue being nakagawa myojin! Just that the craftsmen are busy so not a lot of stock

I asked Baba a similar question, but got a different answer.

There’s a new convex Kagekiyo Ginsan line with Sakura handles (see pic) - I asked who the smith and sharpener were and was told that the smith was still Nakagawa, but that a new sharpener (Max?) had taken over from Myojin, so not sure he’s still doing the convex Ginsans…

 

[JBroida]

no Max anymore

 

[dehory]

I heard Max just recently left Baba

 

[pitted_soul]

Ok, so I've heard about these Max ground ginsans too. Maybe these got made before he left? I have one of the White 2s that he did, and I'll gladly snag one of his ginsan if it comes to market.

Do we know where Max landed?

 

[alexanderras]

Ok, so I've heard about these Max ground ginsans too. Maybe these got made before he left? I have one of the White 2s that he did, and I'll gladly snag one of his ginsan if it comes to market.

Do we know where Max landed?

So I’ve since learned that they’re indeed not by Max - there’s a new sharpener who has experience from other brands, but whose name remains secret. I have been trying to work out who it might be, but so far no luck.

Choil shot below in case any of you have ideas…

 

[warabitimmy]

no Max anymore

Didn’t know that thanks for clearing that out for us

For the folks hearing varying information, in the same thorough conversation I had with Kagekiyo last week, they gave me a heads up about the upcoming Sakura handles (now released) continuing to be nakagawa san and myojin san - hence them stating that the series will always be nakagawa and myojin.

Strange that ppl are getting different info from baba hamono. My guess is that there’s miscommunication while folks are discussing craftsmen for different steels or folks making assumptions bc of shared handles across different steels

In other words just to make super clear for anyone joining this thread for the first time in the future, according to Kagekiyo directly, any Kagekiyo convex grind ginsan in any handle whether it’s one of the walnut ones or the latest Sakura/cherry one is nakagawa myojin and “always will be”. I don’t have any info for the non-ginsan steels and of course you can go to Jon Broida for wide bevel ginsan.

Happy with my walnut handle convex ginsan that I got early for my bday next week and hopefully will celebrate a future milestone with the wide bevel

 

[alexanderras]

Didn’t know that thanks for clearing that out for us

For the folks hearing varying information, in the same thorough conversation I had with Kagekiyo last week, they gave me a heads up about the upcoming Sakura handles (now released) continuing to be nakagawa san and myojin san - hence them stating that the series will always be nakagawa and myojin.

Strange that ppl are getting different info from baba hamono. My guess is that there’s miscommunication while folks are discussing craftsmen for different steels or folks making assumptions bc of shared handles across different steels

In other words just to make super clear for anyone joining this thread for the first time in the future, according to Kagekiyo directly, any Kagekiyo convex grind ginsan in any handle whether it’s one of the walnut ones or the latest Sakura/cherry one is nakagawa myojin and “always will be”. I don’t have any info for the non-ginsan steels and of course you can go to Jon Broida for wide bevel ginsan.

Happy with my walnut handle convex ginsan that I got early for my bday next week and hopefully will celebrate a future milestone with the wide bevel

I hope you’re right

It’s strange that we have gotten different information directly from baba. I literally sent them the above picture of the knife I have ordered (Ginsan with Sakura handle) and they confirmed that this was NOT done by Myojin. I then asked if it was Max (who did the White with Sakura handles) and was told it was an entirely new sharpener

Anyway, maybe we will learn more when the Ginsans with Sakura handles are officially released soon.

 

[Yoshi]

What about nashida? I thought he does Ginsan convex as well?

 

[pitted_soul]

I hope you’re right

It’s strange that we have gotten different information directly from baba. I literally sent them the above picture of the knife I have ordered (Ginsan with Sakura handle) and they confirmed that this was NOT done by Myojin. I then asked if it was Max (who did the White with Sakura handles) and was told it was an entirely new sharpener

Anyway, maybe we will learn more when the Ginsans with Sakura handles are officially released soon.

Thank you, that sounds like solid information and good news. I have the Ginsan wide bevel, I think Nishida ground it, and it's excellent. Fit and finish is just perfect .

 

[warabitimmy]

Didn’t know that thanks for clearing that out for us

For the folks hearing varying information, in the same thorough conversation I had with Kagekiyo last week, they gave me a heads up about the upcoming Sakura handles (now released) continuing to be nakagawa san and myojin san - hence them stating that the series will always be nakagawa and myojin.

Strange that ppl are getting different info from baba hamono. My guess is that there’s miscommunication while folks are discussing craftsmen for different steels or folks making assumptions bc of shared handles across different steels

In other words just to make super clear for anyone joining this thread for the first time in the future, according to Kagekiyo directly, any Kagekiyo convex grind ginsan in any handle whether it’s one of the walnut ones or the latest Sakura/cherry one is nakagawa myojin and “always will be”. I don’t have any info for the non-ginsan steels and of course you can go to Jon Broida for wide bevel ginsan.

Happy with my walnut handle convex ginsan that I got early for my bday next week and hopefully will celebrate a future milestone with the wide bevel

Adding to my own comment above, if both is true that Baba Hamono is in fact very clear on the Sakura handle convex ginsan being no longer by Myojin san and Kagekiyo definitely was crystal clear on it continuing to be myojin san, I can imagine that there are ppl involved who might not want it to be known information. This is just a guess that I hope isn’t spread - just purely a guess that if true, I’d want to respect

I hope you’re right

It’s strange that we have gotten different information directly from baba. I literally sent them the above picture of the knife I have ordered (Ginsan with Sakura handle) and they confirmed that this was NOT done by Myojin. I then asked if it was Max (who did the White with Sakura handles) and was told it was an entirely new sharpener

Anyway, maybe we will learn more when the Ginsans with Sakura handles are officially released soon.

I’m so stoked for you the Sakura handles are sweeet! Yeah I wonder if they just want it to be private or something bc I confirmed information with them with screenshots of knives too and they were very confident and confused that there was any other info on the internet suggesting otherwise. Also judging by the pricing of the cherry handle knives, the new sharpener has got to be myojin or if not him then same/higher level who has a name that we’d know. Which is why I personally def won’t be going back to baba or kagekiyo to confirm once again since I’m getting a vibe that information is being withheld intentionally since they didn’t give you a name. Personally going to go off the info I received that it’s nakagawa myojin

What about nashida? I thought he does Ginsan convex as well?

Nishida does the wide bevel ginsan that Jon Broida sells at Japanese Knife Imports