Kaiju and TF Steel

[The_Real_Self]

It seems bizarre to challenge someone's findings or experiences based on your own believes by asking them to do something. Shouldn't you first provide some evidence that what you believe is true? Where are the carefully done experiments and supporting data that proves that your beliefs have any merit and are based in reality? You are basically saying that you looked through everything that Larrin published analyzed it and came to the conclusion that he is wrong. That's fine, but please provide the proof with data. After all Larrin explained everything, all the findings, the data is provided everything is there.

It gets very exhausting to argue over the same topics with people who's believes are faith based as yours are. You basically experienced something and made an explanation that makes sense to you and now you think it is reality and must be true. If you want to challenge someone's experiments you either have to point out that the method is incorrect, data doesn't support the conclusion or provide your own experiments to prove what you are saying. So far you have done none of it. What is worse you contradict yourself even in what you say. You said that what is popular doesn't have to be true or correct and then say that blue super is the industry standard therefore has to be good. It is not a standard and even if it was it wouldn't make it superior for specific uses. Then you show that you don't understand that PM process is just a method of producing steel which has nothing to do with the specifics of the steel. You could produce any steel that way it just doesn't make sense for low alloy steels. Then you decided to define what edge stability means to you which is great except that it has been defined and explained already.

All these, "but in the real world" arguments are just misguided. Larrin's experiments are the real world and are the best we have for comparing steels and predicting their behavior in knife related applications. If your experience is different you should probably analyze why that is not claim that his results are not based in reality, they are.

Again, I am making no strong claims as Larrin is making the claims and therefore he is obligated to put forth some sort of body of work to actually prove that his tests are a meaningful metric and correlate strongly to actual use. This has never been the case therefore his 'science' is not even of the level of high school equivalent. Nobody would accept this as meaningful in the world of science without the actual work proving it does work out that way. On the contrary, there have been others who have basically disproved the idea that simply adding more wear resistance equals more edge retention in use.

What I had said about Super Blue being a very popular steel had more to do with the fact that these makers were simply using it and not waxing poetic about how much of a 'Super Steel' it was and how everything else out there is inferior. I was simply pointing out that there is a big difference in those approaches and I tend to be VERY skeptical of manufacturers claims in general and this very much extends to the steel producers themselves who are very good at presenting marketing materials that show their products very favorably but share almost nothing as to how their 'data' was generated.

My views are not faith-based in the least bit, I simply have a grasp of basic metallurgy and knife design concepts which very few seem to have and therefore what is left is simply 'metal-fantasy' where someone says something about 'X' steel and suddenly you have a whole army of believers espousing how it is the best thing since sliced bread and simply parroting what they might have heard. I do not claim to be a testing expert by any means but what I have done is plenty of discussing these matters with those who have extensive experience in this field and have actually focused on putting forth data.

One such place for such discussion was the following forum, which is still available at the following in read only format due to the site founder passing away.

Below is a thread which illustrates this point perfectly as Larrin himself was directly questioned about this issue of the model not being tested and simply assuming it correlates with real world use. He was, of course, not the first to make this error as you'll see noted in the back and forth if you read carefully.

Spyderco Forums: Toughest Stainless Steel

 

[The_Real_Self]

What is the lowest BESS score you have ever achieved on blue super?

How is this at all relevant to the quoted post you reference?

 

[HumbleHomeCook]

You try too hard. Cliff wouldn't be impressed.

 

[DevinT]

Again, I am making no strong claims as Larrin is making the claims and therefore he is obligated to put forth some sort of body of work to actually prove that his tests are a meaningful metric and correlate strongly to actual use. This has never been the case therefore his 'science' is not even of the level of high school equivalent. Nobody would accept this as meaningful in the world of science without the actual work proving it does work out that way. On the contrary, there have been others who have basically disproved the idea that simply adding more wear resistance equals more edge retention in use.

What I had said about Super Blue being a very popular steel had more to do with the fact that these makers were simply using it and not waxing poetic about how much of a 'Super Steel' it was and how everything else out there is inferior. I was simply pointing out that there is a big difference in those approaches and I tend to be VERY skeptical of manufacturers claims in general and this very much extends to the steel producers themselves who are very good at presenting marketing materials that show their products very favorably but share almost nothing as to how their 'data' was generated.

My views are not faith-based in the least bit, I simply have a grasp of basic metallurgy and knife design concepts which very few seem to have and therefore what is left is simply 'metal-fantasy' where someone says something about 'X' steel and suddenly you have a whole army of believers espousing how it is the best thing since sliced bread and simply parroting what they might have heard. I do not claim to be a testing expert by any means but what I have done is plenty of discussing these matters with those who have extensive experience in this field and have actually focused on putting forth data.

One such place for such discussion was the following forum, which is still available at the following in read only format due to the site founder passing away.

Below is a thread which illustrates this point perfectly as Larrin himself was directly questioned about this issue of the model not being tested and simply assuming it correlates with real world use. He was, of course, not the first to make this error as you'll see noted in the back and forth if you read carefully.

Spyderco Forums: Toughest Stainless Steel

Larrin makes no claims, he does the testing and shows the results. He has never set out to prove or disprove anything, just does the testing. There have been some surprising results over the years.

Hoss

 

[Hockey3081]

Well I’m going to assume this thread will be shut down thanks for Florida Man doing too many bath salts and posting at 5AM.

 

[superworrier]

Lots of people putting words in Larrin’s mouth IMO.

People have taken a lot of these test results to mean “the definitive objective guide to steel” and that anything not on the frontier there is pure garbage. Meanwhile you see makers like Xerxes making knives with alleged “inferior” steel/HT. Nonsense to say that of course.

 

[M1k3]

Not once did I say it was wrong, simply that a popular belief does not equal actual truth or righteousness.

Can anybody show me any sort of data that suggests that Larrin's test actually correlate to real world usage in any way? It's a great model but it is a thoroughly unproven one even by conservative standards. Wear resistance is a small piece of the puzzle for edges.

Larrin's model is in no way, shape or form any more proven than the idea that man can become a woman simply by believing they are and undergoing a 'gender reassignment' surgery. The definition of a man or woman is very clear and definitively assigned at birth, no amount of popularity changes this.

And ignore list you go.

 

[The_Real_Self]

Larrin makes no claims, he does the testing and shows the results. He has never set out to prove or disprove anything, just does the testing. There have been some surprising results over the years.

Hoss

That may be the case but what is the point of the testing if not to try and establish some sort of modeling of performance? The thread I referenced last post or two back surely sounds as though Larrin has indeed assumed that the testing he and others have done with CATRA correlates highly to the real world and that it was assumed to be a reliable model. Am I missing something in his words that gives me the wrong idea?

The main problem I see is that there is no disclaimer I have seen with his work which makes it very apparent to readers that all of these tests are just one data point and need to be seen this way as that is in no way how many people seem to be taking the tests to mean. In fact, I have noticed a disturbing trend of many folks directly stating a steel's edge retention correlates specifically to it's CATRA ranking and simply asking for MEGA carbide volume on everything.

You try too hard. Cliff wouldn't be impressed.

That is very thoughtful of you to speculate on what Cliff would think/feel but it is not helpful as personal commentary is never helpful in these discussions. Cliff would likely argue (from my perspective) that this very comment would not be welcome at his forum and I have seen him make statements like this many times over the years to even well respected and highly regarded members who at times lose perspective of what is really important in the discussion. Personal commentary is the reason this thread has degenerated from what would be a healthy discussion to a mostly ego-driven pursuit. Simply look back at what transpired with people throwing around wild accusations of bigotry for merely drawing a connection to something outside the scope of knives.

 

[M1k3]

Well I’m going to assume this thread will be shut down thanks for Florida Man doing too many bath salts and posting at 5AM.

I hope the crap gets deleted, instead of this thread going away.

 

[HumbleHomeCook]

I hope the crap gets deleted, instead of this thread going away.

Nah. It should stay so people have a whole context of the person in the future.

 

[The_Real_Self]

And ignore list you go.

And this is yet another case of the type of personal commentary one must endure at forums such as this in order to discuss performance. In no way does this comment add anything of value to the discussion but merely tells others that this member has judged me on some level and completely canceled my views.

Well I’m going to assume this thread will be shut down thanks for Florida Man doing too many bath salts and posting at 5AM.

Wow, that's a really interesting judgement to make against me and again I'd ask what does my personal life have anything to do with this discussion? I mean hypothetically speaking of course, even if that were true how would it change any of the actual content of what I'm saying? Anybody can be wrong about something, even the most highly schooled amongst us. It doesn't take someone being a drug addict to be ignorant to something or just flat wrong. Attacking ones character for sharing an unpopular viewpoint says more about you then it does me in the end.

 

[Hockey3081]

And this is yet another case of the type of personal commentary one must endure at forums such as this in order to discuss performance. In no way does this comment add anything of value to the discussion but merely tells others that this member has judged me on some level and completely canceled my views.



Wow, that's a really interesting judgement to make against me and again I'd ask what does my personal life have anything to do with this discussion? I mean hypothetically speaking of course, even if that were true how would it change any of the actual content of what I'm saying? Anybody can be wrong about something, even the most highly schooled amongst us.

Because this is a pretty chill forum and you’re aggressive, combative, bigoted and irritating. The quintessential FL Man, if you will.

That fact that you even wrote such a verbose question response after I said you’re on bath salts confirms you’re either a troll or you’re on bath salts.

 

[The_Real_Self]

Because this is a pretty chill forum and you’re aggressive, combative, bigoted and irritating. The quintessential FL Man, if you will.

That fact that you even wrote such a verbose question response after I said you’re on bath salts confirms you’re either a troll or you’re on bath salts.

I may lack tact but that does not make me a troll or a drug user. The fact that you have nothing to add to the discussion but judgement against me for not fitting your standard of what you believe the average forum member is... really interesting to me. You must have some need to feel superior to me on some level whether you know it or not as that is always the reason behind judging others.

I see nothing chill about a forum full of members that throw around all sorts of insulting and judgmental language towards a member who is sharing a viewpoint they disagree with. I would argue that the combativeness certainly goes both ways if I have been combative as many here are well down the path of acting as though a good tarring and feathering is in order for me. I guess it's chill if you just fall in line with collective 'wisdom' of the forum.

 

[DevinT]

That may be the case but what is the point of the testing if not to try and establish some sort of modeling of performance? The thread I referenced last post or two back surely sounds as though Larrin has indeed assumed that the testing he and others have done with CATRA correlates highly to the real world and that it was assumed to be a reliable model. Am I missing something in his words that gives me the wrong idea?

The main problem I see is that there is no disclaimer I have seen with his work which makes it very apparent to readers that all of these tests are just one data point and need to be seen this way as that is in no way how many people seem to be taking the tests to mean. In fact, I have noticed a disturbing trend of many folks directly stating a steel's edge retention correlates specifically to it's CATRA ranking and simply asking for MEGA carbide volume on everything.



That is very thoughtful of you to speculate on what Cliff would think/feel but it is not helpful as personal commentary is never helpful in these discussions. Cliff would likely argue (from my perspective) that this very comment would not be welcome at his forum and I have seen him make statements like this many times over the years to even well respected and highly regarded members who at times lose perspective of what is really important in the discussion. Personal commentary is the reason this thread has degenerated from what would be a healthy discussion to a mostly ego-driven pursuit. Simply look back at what transpired with people throwing around wild accusations of bigotry for merely drawing a connection to something outside the scope of knives.

I’m still looking for where you’ve contributed something useful to this thread.

Hoss

 

[The_Real_Self]

I’m still looking for where you’ve contributed something useful to this thread.

Hoss

Wow, it's truly striking that you are willing to step in and share when you feel that someone needs to be corrected (myself) and yet I do the same to others parroting what I feel to be half truths and/or untruths and I've done nothing at all. The irony is strong with you today, sir. The real irony is that at the end of the day it seems I truly have done nothing as the hivemind seems to have settled on what is 'true' regardless of what I've presented though little has been said to actually dispute and/or disprove what I'm saying.

 

[DevinT]

Wow, it's truly striking that you are willing to step in and share when you feel that someone needs to be corrected (myself) and yet I do the same to others parroting what I feel to be half truths and/or untruths and I've done nothing at all. The irony is strong with you today, sir. The real irony is that at the end of the day it seems I truly have done nothing as the hivemind seems to have settled on what is 'true' regardless of what I've presented though little has been said to actually dispute and/or disprove what I'm saying.

You haven’t proven anything.

Show me your testing, your background, education, show me something that makes you qualified to be so critical of others work and experience.

Hoss

 

[EricEricEric]

Because this is a pretty chill forum and you’re aggressive, combative, bigoted and irritating. The quintessential FL Man, if you will.

That fact that you even wrote such a verbose question response after I said you’re on bath salts confirms you’re either a troll or you’re on bath salts.

I think you need to really stop with the Florida man comment there, you’re essentially arguing against yourself now and it’s not a good look

 

[The_Real_Self]

You haven’t proven anything.

Show me your testing, your background, education, show me something that makes you qualified to be so critical of others work and experience.

Hoss

This sort of discussion always seems to come back to the old and tired argument of.... you're not a maker so how can you possibly be qualified. Well if that were true then we basically can only listen to knifemakers and nobody can question anything who doesn't make knives because we lack to background to know anything and we have to just take your word for it all. Nobody is beyond critical review and there was plenty of it against me today in this thread.

That may have been the case in years past but it's very easy now to talk publicly with makers and ask them difficult questions as I have done here. This doesn't require being in any way an expert, btw. I asked the maker earlier in this thread how his knives/steels would benefit me personally and got nothing but radio silence. He claims to use the best steels and 'everybody' can see the difference but cannot articulate how it will be higher performance to me.

 

[daveb]

Let's back the truck up.

Real Self - Some editing has taken place. Pls note it.

You are certainly welcome to have your own opinions and to express them here. But with that freedom of expression there comes some responsibility.

You may question Larrin's work, applicability, observations, conclusions, whatever. And you can do it here. While I can't speak for him I think it's likely he would welcome informed, civil, discourse. Throwing rocks at him with no standing is bad form and you have been rightly called out for it by other members.

Your analogies suck. They won't be tolerated. I've explained that, I won't argue about it. No more.

You may not "attack" other members. This is a gentleman's forum and you and others are expected to interact accordingly.

You singlehandedly took this thread down the crapper. First and last request to make your case more civilly in the future.

(Note that the Jeep / Porsche comparison is fair game and was not edited.)

I'll turn comments back on now.

 

[daveb]

And now that I'm in this thread, ZWear, (in my case by Harbeer) is the best steel for edge retention that I've used. I've similar suji in Blue (Wat), AEBL (Marko, and Devin) 52100 (Marko), White clad (Gengetsu), and the ZWear is in a class by itself for repetitive cutting motions. Not on cardboard but cows. Have a petty and had a gyuto with similar results.

 

[tcmx3]

edit: looks like it got cleaned up so we're fine.

 

[jedy617]

Because what you are saying is something along the lines of a Jeep is better than a Porsche. Clearly these two will excel in fulfilling different users needs and neither will be best in any meaningful way without considering the scope of work and how they are maintained. Again this is an example of geometry providing stability and your unwillingness to regrind the knife to a lower angle shows that you must understand that there will likely be damage and/or poor performance as it's outside of the parameters of the steel qualities.

Which is the jeep and which is the porsche? I would assume the 15v is the porsche. Powdered mettalurgy, extremely time consuming to grind and finish, needs cryo, and edge lasts forever while being as tough as a much less wear resistant steel like m390.

I don't know why we are saying the same things over and over again. But I will say it for the 50th time. CATRA gives general performance in terms of edge retention all things considered. It's how most of us place steels in regards to that, even if we arent cutting through silica impregnated cardboard.

15v for example has a catra score of about 2.6 times that of blue super. No one in this thread I think is arguing that at the same geometry, and cutting food that it's exactly going to last 2.6x longer. But we can use the data to approximately place where the steel is going to land (ONLY IN TERMS OF EDGE RETENTION AND ALL OTHER THINGS BEING EQUAL).

We know k390 is going to cut a hell of a lot longer than white 1. We know s90v does way better than sg2. etc etc etc.

And for the last time, in case it wasn't already extremely clear, we know lots of people don't care about edge retention, or fine edge holding. We all know that isn't the only thing in a knife.

 

[daveb]

Refresh is your friend.

Though I apparently didn't hit save on one or two....

 

[jedy617]

Let's all take a chill it's saturday my guys

 

[tcmx3]

Refresh is your friend.

Though I apparently didn't hit save on one or two....

Im willing to give you credit for cleaning it up. As you say, maybe some saves didn't go through.

 

[daveb]

The irony of someone from New Jersey, undisputed cesspool of the 50 United States, talking about "Florida Man" as if it's a bad thing is not lost on me.

 

[M1k3]

And this is yet another case of the type of personal commentary one must endure at forums such as this in order to discuss performance. In no way does this comment add anything of value to the discussion but merely tells others that this member has judged me on some level and completely canceled my views.



Wow, that's a really interesting judgement to make against me and again I'd ask what does my personal life have anything to do with this discussion? I mean hypothetically speaking of course, even if that were true how would it change any of the actual content of what I'm saying? Anybody can be wrong about something, even the most highly schooled amongst us. It doesn't take someone being a drug addict to be ignorant to something or just flat wrong. Attacking ones character for sharing an unpopular viewpoint says more about you then it does me in the end.

Look, you don't like the reaction to what you say, then don't say anything.

I'm all for everyone having their own voice, even if I disagree. See? I have a voice also.

If you don't want the possibility of someone responding to something you said, then don't say anything.

 

[Naftoor]

Dave, I’m waiting for you to discover the non-Florida Deep South and Appalachia and eagerly await you revising your position on jersey.

Regarding the original topic, the more time I spend with knives in hand the more convinced I am that HRC is more important than the carbides for most kitchen use. As pointed out, for things with light board contact that benefit from the kind of toothiness most knife channels are testing with rope cutting, such as sujis then I would guess a high carbide monster really shines. My experience with most high carbide steels though, is limited to the pocket knife world where makers don’t tend to crank the hardness because they know some yahoo is gonna use the knife to secure a public restroom door with a busted lock. I’ve got some of spydercos 15V work, but I frankly haven’t had the opportunity or reason to really push it so I can’t speak to it, but most of my other super steels have been in the upper 50’s low 60’s range which I frankly find to be meh. On the other hand.

That’d line up with your findings owl, because Kaijus apparently run at 65HRC and Denkas are also in that range if memory serves. The other thing I would suspect, is they could possibly be extremely thin behind the edge. My watanabe is in that boat. The zero grind it came with made the initial sharpenings frankly ludicrously sharp, in ways I haven’t gotten any other knife to myself, or received any other knife from another maker like.

From actual kitchen knife usage, I have VG10 running at about 61HRC, I also have AEBL at about 63HRC, blue #2 at 63-65. Per the charts, the VG10 should absolutely outperform the other two by a significant margin. In practice, I find it loses what passes for ‘sharp’ in my book, which is nothing fancy, just the ability for the steel to bite a fingernail, significantly faster than either of the other two. It continues to perform ‘fine’, but it loses the edge I prefer my knives to have.

I find the questioning of larrin’s character to frankly be silly at best and distasteful at worst. He’s been nothing short of extremely helpful when I’ve asked him questions and his testing has always been as transparent as you can possibly get for testing. He normally states who supplied or forged the knife, who did the sharpening and what the HRC range is. He isn’t hiding anything nor does he have an ulterior motive. Luckily, steel testing is something anyone with an inclination can do if you believe you can’t trust his extensive library of articles for some reason. Bess testers are pretty widely available, and so is the jute rope every YouTuber loves using for cut testing. It may not be catra levels of replicable, but it’s plenty for you to source steel of known HRC and put whatever DPS you want on it. I’d love to see the chart of your findings if you do get around to it since the more data the happier I am, but again I personally appreciate everything larrin has done for the community and his site remains my first stop when I have questions about a steel.


So thanks for cleaning up the thread Dave, we forgive you for being from Florida.

 

[Barmoley]

Again, I am making no strong claims as Larrin is making the claims and therefore he is obligated to put forth some sort of body of work to actually prove that his tests are a meaningful metric and correlate strongly to actual use. This has never been the case therefore his 'science' is not even of the level of high school equivalent. Nobody would accept this as meaningful in the world of science without the actual work proving it does work out that way. On the contrary, there have been others who have basically disproved the idea that simply adding more wear resistance equals more edge retention in use.

What I had said about Super Blue being a very popular steel had more to do with the fact that these makers were simply using it and not waxing poetic about how much of a 'Super Steel' it was and how everything else out there is inferior. I was simply pointing out that there is a big difference in those approaches and I tend to be VERY skeptical of manufacturers claims in general and this very much extends to the steel producers themselves who are very good at presenting marketing materials that show their products very favorably but share almost nothing as to how their 'data' was generated.

My views are not faith-based in the least bit, I simply have a grasp of basic metallurgy and knife design concepts which very few seem to have and therefore what is left is simply 'metal-fantasy' where someone says something about 'X' steel and suddenly you have a whole army of believers espousing how it is the best thing since sliced bread and simply parroting what they might have heard. I do not claim to be a testing expert by any means but what I have done is plenty of discussing these matters with those who have extensive experience in this field and have actually focused on putting forth data.

One such place for such discussion was the following forum, which is still available at the following in read only format due to the site founder passing away.

Below is a thread which illustrates this point perfectly as Larrin himself was directly questioned about this issue of the model not being tested and simply assuming it correlates with real world use. He was, of course, not the first to make this error as you'll see noted in the back and forth if you read carefully.

Spyderco Forums: Toughest Stainless Steel

What confuses me the most is that you seem to be concentrating on CATRA as if that is the only test Larrin has done and then claimed that the results of that test can predict all knife performance in every situation. It feels like you saw one graph which didn't agree with your experience and decided that all of his testing must be wrong. This reminds me of when he published his huge study of initially 48 steels and the whole knife world exploded because many, including some makers felt insulted that their favorite steels got low scores. Larrin provides all sorts of tests including wear resistance, toughness, corrosion resistance, hardness, microstructure, etc. He explains his testing, conclusions and ideas of what the results imply or why they turned out that way. Sometimes he is surprised with the results himself and wants to do further studies. What else do people want from him? Do you actually expect him to test your particular application and your particular preferences? You are being asked about your background not because you have to be a maker, but because what you've wrote sounds pretty ignorant of the subject discussed. You say you have basic understanding of the metallurgy and knife design, but it doesn't come through in what you write. It is very difficult for me to believe that after reading everything Larrin posted you can come to a conclusion that he has some sort of an agenda or that he even claims that wear resistance or high carbide volume are everything in a knife. I've never seen or heard him claim this, so I am not sure where you got this.

Then you challenge others to do stuff for you. You ask people to sharpen their knives a certain way to prove something to you. You ask makers how their steel of choice benefits you for your particular application. Then you seem to be surprised at the reaction you receive

So far you haven't proven anything and worse you haven't shown anything. It is pretty simple. Take a few knives in low alloy steel and high alloy steels, make sure geometry is the same, hardness is the same, etc and do your own "real world" testing. Then report back. Please include data, testing methodology, high zoom images of the edge and any other relevant data. Sharpen them to whatever angle you want with whatever you want. We can then discuss your results. I suspect that after doing this you will get results similar to what Larrin reports, not just in CATRA, but in the combined body of his work. Kitchen knives are not magic and their performance can be predicted and explained, but to do this good data is required. It is very easy to criticize someone else's work without contributing, it is much harder to actually do something useful. I am sure that if you came in with good data that contradicted Larrin's we would gladly discuss it and Larrin would do the same. As is, so far you haven't contributed anything just attacked a few people, whined about being attacked and demanded others to do something for you.

 

[jedy617]

Dave, I’m waiting for you to discover the non-Florida Deep South and Appalachia and eagerly await you revising your position on jersey.

Regarding the original topic, the more time I spend with knives in hand the more convinced I am that HRC is more important than the carbides for most kitchen use. As pointed out, for things with light board contact that benefit from the kind of toothiness most knife channels are testing with rope cutting, such as sujis then I would guess a high carbide monster really shines. My experience with most high carbide steels though, is limited to the pocket knife world where makers don’t tend to crank the hardness because they know some yahoo is gonna use the knife to secure a public restroom door with a busted lock. I’ve got some of spydercos 15V work, but I frankly haven’t had the opportunity or reason to really push it so I can’t speak to it, but most of my other super steels have been in the upper 50’s low 60’s range which I frankly find to be meh. On the other hand.

That’d line up with your findings owl, because Kaijus apparently run at 65HRC and Denkas are also in that range if memory serves. The other thing I would suspect, is they could possibly be extremely thin behind the edge. My watanabe is in that boat. The zero grind it came with made the initial sharpenings frankly ludicrously sharp, in ways I haven’t gotten any other knife to myself, or received any other knife from another maker like.

From actual kitchen knife usage, I have VG10 running at about 61HRC, I also have AEBL at about 63HRC, blue #2 at 63-65. Per the charts, the VG10 should absolutely outperform the other two by a significant margin. In practice, I find it loses what passes for ‘sharp’ in my book, which is nothing fancy, just the ability for the steel to bite a fingernail, significantly faster than either of the other two. It continues to perform ‘fine’, but it loses the edge I prefer my knives to have.

I find the questioning of larrin’s character to frankly be silly at best and distasteful at worst. He’s been nothing short of extremely helpful when I’ve asked him questions and his testing has always been as transparent as you can possibly get for testing. He normally states who supplied or forged the knife, who did the sharpening and what the HRC range is. He isn’t hiding anything nor does he have an ulterior motive. Luckily, steel testing is something anyone with an inclination can do if you believe you can’t trust his extensive library of articles for some reason. Bess testers are pretty widely available, and so is the jute rope every YouTuber loves using for cut testing. It may not be catra levels of replicable, but it’s plenty for you to source steel of known HRC and put whatever DPS you want on it. I’d love to see the chart of your findings if you do get around to it since the more data the happier I am, but again I personally appreciate everything larrin has done for the community and his site remains my first stop when I have questions about a steel.


So thanks for cleaning up the thread Dave, we forgive you for being from Florida.

What super steels by chance are you at the upper 50's with? For almost everything besides s90v (which does better at 63hrc imo but can be serviceable at 58-59) most suck in that range. It's definitely a combination of heat treat and steel of course. But some steels are really good at lower hrcs as well like elmax or vanax. Well you can't just pump em up super high anyway.