Kato and Shig? I do not get it...

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Towerguy said:
In my view, if a knife is to be used in the kitchen on a regular basis none of them are worth $1,000. Not Carter, not Kato, not Shig. They are cutting implements and are meant to be used. They are not works of art.
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I dunno, if I’m using a knife for 50+ hours a week in a high pressure environment, where speed and precision count and anything that reduces effort or frustration is worthwhile, tiny advantages in ease of accurate cutting, less force per cut, end-of-shift edge stability, have quite a lot of value in aggregate over time. The analogy I’ve used before of Snap-on tools for a mechanic, a $600 drill/screwgun versus the $100 DeWalt I have at home. Or expensive work shoes and insoles, or tech infrastructure built for 5, 6, 7 nines of uptime... That said I probably only realize the benefit of having a handful of knives that good, not a wall full plus a bag full :D
 
The Kato is just made in a unique way, and something about the steel is incredible - it sort of glimmers, its profile is perfect. I plan on using mine this week. Just had to stare at it for a bit😊

and 1K for a knife, is not that bad, considering there are American makers, EU makers, that charge 2-3K plus for their knives
 
big_adventure said:
What I should have said above is that I'll reach for any knife I have, no matter the price. I have knives worth "some" on up to "a lot." My current knifu is certainly over a thousand, but it's also the one I'm reaching for 75% of the time. That will change as more things come in and out of the collection, of course. And very few preps go by for me where I don't reach for at least 2 knives, just because I can and because I want to use them all.
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Thank you mate for the input. Your white 1 Togashi Honyaki is very impressive! I am a huge fan of honyaki knives myself :)
 
RockyBasel said:
The Kato is just made in a unique way, and something about the steel is incredible - it sort of glimmers, its profile is perfect. I plan on using mine this week. Just had to stare at it for a bit😊

and 1K for a knife, is not that bad, considering there are American makers, EU makers, that charge 2-3K plus for their knives
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Thank you for the comment. I understand there are more expensive clad knives.
I think at the end of day, I might just get a nice honyaki from a reputable maker for a similar price, which seems like a better deal to me.
But again, this is just me. There is no reason one cannot appreciate a Kato/Shig the same way I appreciate an Ikeda or Mukou honyaki, just saying.
 
Honyaki’s are great - gorgeous knives. But typically simpler steel-wise

high-performance carbon knives are a different matter

I love both - honyaki’s are more work to polish and maintain, but that is part of the fun!

but those Kato’s have “soul”
 
RockyBasel said:
Honyaki’s are great - gorgeous knives. But typically simpler steel-wise

high-performance carbon knives are a different matter

I love both - honyaki’s are more work to polish and maintain, but that is part of the fun!

but those Kato’s have “soul”
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wow - that sounds awesome. you just made me want to get a Kato!
 
Lucien said:
Thank you mate for the input. Your white 1 Togashi Honyaki is very impressive! I am a huge fan of honyaki knives myself :)
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Yeah, I'm in love with that thing. I feel very fortunate to use it. Good luck with whatever you decide to go with. At the end of the day, there are no wrong choices here.
 
Towerguy said:
In my view, if a knife is to be used in the kitchen on a regular basis none of them are worth $1,000. Not Carter, not Kato, not Shig. They are cutting implements and are meant to be used. They are not works of art.
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Agree. Anthony Bourdain's $231,250 is not a work of art, just a tool—with a provenance that added exceptional value to the knife. Shig, Kato Kiyoshi, TF, et al—aren't artists, but craftspeople/artisans. Shigs and Katos are made to be used—I know pro chefs who regularly use 1k+ Katos and Shigs at work. High value doesn't automatically exclude a knife from kitchen duty. One cook's unicorn is another's beater.
 
I bought a Shigefusa Kurouchi santoku. Not dear, about £250. I get the point, very beautiful camber to the edge. Chips easily though 😐
 
Im not the biggest fan of shigefusa personally, I mean they can be really nice but just not for me.

I think Kato prices are silly, but the workhorse is more or less my perfect knife between the profile, grind, weight, and now that I have a octagonal burnt chestnut handle on it that too. FOR ME.

I wish the profile were more common =[
 
Aidan said:
I bought a Shigefusa Kurouchi santoku. Not dear, about £250. I get the point, very beautiful camber to the edge. Chips easily though 😐
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I've found shigefusas need to have a microbevel. Work great with em, but very chippy without.
 
Been trying to buy a kato 210 gyuto for months but no one selling.
I just wanna have the humble honour of using one. See what’s the rave is all about after all these years.
 
Lucien said:
sounds reasonable - maybe i should get one and give it a try.
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The kurouchi Shigefusas remain an accessible route to trying a Shigefusa grind and heat treat. The knives are overlooked because they arent common in popular sizes and profiles. But that overlooks how damned good the Kurouchi is. If you view kurouchi as an art... Shigefusa is up there. It is durable, even and pleasantly matte (better than Katos in my opinion).

I think they are still reasonable (not great) value if you want a practical knife.... But... Sssshhhhh 🤫 Dont tell anyone....🤣



Lucien said:
wow - that sounds awesome. you just made me want to get a Kato!
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@RockyBasel is right... there is room for both. Honyaki are nice. They are an obvious choice if you are reaching for the 'top shelf' of kitchen cutlery... But there is a subtle beauty to san-mai construction beyond the skill it takes to laminate the metals. Look up Shigefusa clouds. They haven't been discussed for a while now. I am not a fan of damascus but love banding in metals. I'd buy a kasumi Shigefusa with pronounced banding over a kitaeji without thinking twice... Unfortunately the kasumi with super, exaggerated banding seem like an 'old stock' thing. While the new kasumi knives have it... it is much more faint.
 
Luftmensch said:
It is durable, even and pleasantly matte (better than Katos in my opinion).
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Not sure about that. While I don't have first hand experience of Shig Ku, many users have said how easy the finish is removed. Same can't be said for the Kato Ku which I do find to be stable.
 
Corradobrit1 said:
Not sure about that. While I don't have first hand experience of Shig Ku, many users have said how easy the finish is removed. Same can't be said for the Kato Ku which I do find to be stable.
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I think it is fair to say the Shigefusa kurouchi is more even than Katos. This is the only reason I think it is 'better'... Compare photos of each... Kato has more patches and thinner spots. There is no right here. It is purely aesthetic. Personally: I think Shigefusa kuro is more deliberate and 'controlled'. But then again... Katos are more rustic knives so the kuro suits the theme...

As for durability... eh... they are both durable - i wouldnt rate one over the other. Kurouchi is not for ever, it ages with the knife... this is wabi-sabi... (in contrast to the other thread 😝). Carelessness will damage it on either knife (rust, acid, careless thinning 😔)...

This opinion is based on a small sample of both knives - but limited exposure to other smiths. I would quite like to see what Tsukasa-san's kuro is like...
 
Luftmensch said:
I think it is fair to say the Shigefusa kurouchi is more even than Katos. This is the only reason I think it is 'better'... Compare photos of each... Kato has more patches and thinner spots. There is no right here. It is purely aesthetic. Personally: I think Shigefusa kuro is more deliberate and 'controlled'. But then again... Katos are more rustic knives so the kuro suits the theme...

As for durability... eh... they are both durable - i wouldnt rate one over the other. Kurouchi is not for ever, it ages with the knife... this is wabi-sabi... (in contrast to the other thread 😝). Carelessness will damage it on either knife (rust, acid, careless thinning 😔)...

This opinion is based on a small sample of both knives - but limited exposure to other smiths. I would quite like to see what Tsukasa-san's kuro is like...
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Oh yes, from that perspective the Shig Ku finish is more even. I would go so far as to say its too perfect.......
It should not come off with tape
https://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/threads/shigefusa-kurouchi-questions.20326/#post-325757
TF Ku is almost indestructible in comparison in normal use and I use a Denka daily.
 
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Corradobrit1 said:
It should not come off with tape
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Wow! That is terrible. That is not consistent with my experience. I'll be clear - I only have one kuro santoku. While I wouldn't call it indestructible... it has suffered more than it should have and survived. Instances where it has come off are... user error 🤨😔

Like I say... so far, I don't see it being substantively different from Kato with regards to durability. Perhaps their QA lets the odd bad one through? Which isn't great outcome either - given their reputation for high quality work....


Moooza said:
Tsukasa Hinoura kurouchi is a level up again in evenness and beauty compared to Shigefusa.
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Ahhh.... well now we know what you are going to have to practice your photography on 😉🙂
 
Lucien said:
sounds reasonable - maybe i should get one and give it a try.
cheers mate
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They sell out very quickly but there is a link to receive an email when they’re back in stock!
 
ragz said:
I've found shigefusas need to have a microbevel. Work great with em, but very chippy without.
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Thank you, I will have to try that. Pity though as the ‘grind’ to the blade edge is astonishing
 
Aidan said:
Thank you, I will have to try that. Pity though as the ‘grind’ to the blade edge is astonishing
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Honestly, putting a microbevel on won't hurt that grind at all. I microbevel with under 10 strokes mostly, except on really hard stainless. The "sad" part comes when you need to thin. It's not exactly easy to maintain a Shig grind. Dirty secret - I find my Shig more beautiful then effective, but it's "just" a ku nakiri and it has some sharp competition on my strip and board.
 
big_adventure said:
Honestly, putting a microbevel on won't hurt that grind at all. I microbevel with under 10 strokes mostly, except on really hard stainless. The "sad" part comes when you need to thin. It's not exactly easy to maintain a Shig grind. Dirty secret - I find my Shig more beautiful then effective, but it's "just" a ku nakiri and it has some sharp competition on my strip and board.
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Unfortunately I’ll have to remove the chips, urgently too, because they’re compounding themselves, so I’ll lose the initial edge, and then a new microbevel. 😐
 

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