Kato std, wh or ku

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Ok so this is my kato ku nakiri 165mm (170mm actually) and as you can see the distal taper goes into a 1.5mm thin blade pretty fast so the choil just hides the truth about the blade which is quite thin and nimble. But still the choil shows it's not thick at the bottom either
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My 155mm kato nakiri is even more thin at the base in one of the sweetest choils i've seen. Yes that's standard kato ku.
Perhaps the initial design changed and newer iterations from last year reflect that. Even his wh gyuto 240 is much thinner then what it used to.
And none of the above have been thinned.
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F-Flash said:
The f&f on kikuryu is below average to be honest. Many 200 dollar knives have better f&f.
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Exactly. They are stunning, huge presence, can't take your eyes off it, and that's not even mentioning the amazing western handles, but the f&f on a Kato damascus is leagues better.
 
F-Flash said:
The f&f on kikuryu is below average to be honest. Many 200 dollar knives have better f&f.
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Moooza said:
Exactly. They are stunning, huge presence, can't take your eyes off it, and that's not even mentioning the amazing western handles, but the f&f on a Kato damascus is leagues better.
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I’d love to see your kikuryus next to a 200 dollar knife! Can you guys make some pictures?
 
Here are some visual references, hopefully they will help.

Kato Nakiri in use:

Kato Nakiri vs cabbage

Kato WH gyuto in use:

Kato WH Gyuto vs onion

There are other video of Kato in use on my IG, I can’t find them all but I’m sure you’ll come across a good few Katos as you roam around there.


A choil comparison:

Kato gyuto choils

And a profile comparison (WH and Kikuryu on the left, Standard and Dammy on the right):


2741ADA8-9744-4671-9F20-680CB301CB56.jpeg


Everyone will have an opinion, but to me Katos are some of the most lovable blades that there have ever been or there will ever be.
 
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khashy said:
Here are some visual references, hopefully they will help.

Kato Nakiri in use:

Kato Nakiri vs cabbage

Kato WH gyuto in use:

Kato WH Gyuto vs onion

There are other video of Kato in use on my IG, I can’t find them all but I’m sure you’ll come across a good few Katos as you roam around there.


A choil comparison:

Kato gyuto choils

And a profile comparison (WH and Kikuryu on the left, Standard and Dammy on the right):


View attachment 111399

Everyone will have an opinion, but to me Katos are some of the most lovable blades that there have ever been or there will ever be.
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nice line up!
 
Had them all except for the Kikuryu that I was never interested in when they were actually available. For me performance wise the std was by far the most impressive. Pre 2016 katos were much better than the later ones, at least what I saw.
 
F-Flash said:
the whole knife had deep grind marks
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Isn't that standard for Kato double bevels? Part of the aesthetic if you will....?

His single bevels have a higher surface finish (stones)
 
Luftmensch said:
Isn't that standard for Kato double bevels? Part of the aesthetic if you will....?

His single bevels have a higher surface finish (stones)
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It is standard in his double bevels, but nevertheless brings down f&f.
Katos never were about f&f anyway. More like mystery and choil shots.
 
So much hate for poor kato. I really don't understand it to be honest. I mean the japanese are freaking obsessed with detail and they love him as a great artist and craftsman. A lot of big knife collectors revear his work. The man is a legend in knife crafting and a swords smith on top, yet some people can't help throwing some dirt at his good name. Is there some sense of acomplishment in denigrating the work of an old master with over 60 years of craft. Show me a knife with overgrind or bend or loose handle please.
 
F-Flash said:
It is standard in his double bevels, but nevertheless brings down f&f.
Katos never were about f&f anyway. More like mystery and choil shots.
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Perhaps this is overly philosophical... but I think you have to judge fit and finish within the context of what the blacksmith intends. It is unproductive to judge a knife (or anything) by standards it was never meant to meet. In that regard, I dont think Katos have a bad fit and finish.

It is clear that Kato-san has made a deliberate and consistent choice, over many years, to leave the grind marks visible. And not because he is incapable! His single bevels show that he can produce a nice kasumi if he wants. So should we judge his choice by other standards? Rather than asking whether or not the grind marks should be there... ask if he did them well?

I would say that the grind marks suit the overall rustic/'heavy' aesthetics of his knives. Particularly on the kurouchi knives. Fit and finish wise, the Katos I have seen had no obvious high-low spots in their grind, they were straight/true, their profile seemed well executed and the heat-treat seemed fine. Further, while I am not claiming the grind marks are a high art, they at least looked uniform and 'controlled'.

Now! It is fair for a buyer to have a preference for a certain profile/grind/heat-treat/aesthetic and attach a value to that specification. If those parameters don't match the style of a particular blacksmith; within reason, it is not the blacksmith's fault - just a bad pairing.

:)
 
danemonji said:
Show me a knife with overgrind or bend or loose handle please.
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[emphasis mine]

Exactly... My thinking on a broad definition of fit and finish.

The handle design/type seem to vary, depending on the vendor. Maybe I read it. Maybe I just assumed it**... but I don't think Kato installs the handles... If true... Kato-san shouldnt really be judged on the handles either...

**(a.k.a take this comment with a decent grain of salt)
 
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Oh and one more thing i want to add. Kato san does not set the prices for his knives. I've seen prices in Japan for some of his knives that are a fraction of what they sell on the open market. Most likely he hasn't changed too much the commision for his work over the years.
I find it a bit sad that this humble and simple man who is true to his tradition and craft has to be held responsible for the overcharge that the market sets on his work.
 
That's all understandable, it's still hard to see a coarse belt grinder finish on a $1000 knife and you cant fault people to mention it imo :D
 
danemonji said:
So much hate for poor kato. I really don't understand it to be honest. I mean the japanese are freaking obsessed with detail and they love him as a great artist and craftsman. A lot of big knife collectors revear his work. The man is a legend in knife crafting and a swords smith on top, yet some people can't help throwing some dirt at his good name. Is there some sense of acomplishment in denigrating the work of an old master with over 60 years of craft. Show me a knife with overgrind or bend or loose handle please.
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interesting, because my understanding is that the Japanese kitchen knife market is often a bit more forgiving of 'character' than the American one.

in fact a lot of the better dealers are working out with knife makers extra finishing steps or doing them themselves.

I will agree Kato is one of the most talented knifemakers out there though, but I also think that the criticisms in this thread are pretty valid and based on people's personal ownership, and that I havent seen a single person attack Kato as a maker much less a human being.
 
I've been wondering about the appeal these days. I get they're rare and so sought after. So from collecting point of view totally I get it. But what I don't get is that the reason everyone went all ga ga over Kato (and Toyama for that matter) was mostly that beast mode grind and weight. Other things factor in too, But that's what separated them from the herd. When people realized them at that time it was new and exciting and the very opposite of laser era that interest started shifting away from.

And if I've understood this correctly some weigh these days in the 220g region? (Toyamas B2 SS weighs about 200) And if so they are entering in the world of the middle weights. So where's the appeal anymore? Just another well made middleweight that the world is full of.

If I'd splurge on a Kato only to find out it weighs 220 or less I'd be pretty pissed. It would not be what I would be looking for at all in a Kato (or toyama either) because I wouldn't be getting the experience the guy is known for.

And please be gentle. Not looking to get my head taken off. i like my head, but I am genuinely wondering.
 
JaVa said:
I've been wondering about the appeal these days. I get they're rare and so sought after. So from collecting point of view totally I get it. But what I don't get is that the reason everyone went all ga ga over Kato (and Toyama for that matter) was mostly that beast mode grind and weight. Other things factor in too, But that's what separated them from the herd. When people realized them at that time it was new and exciting and the very opposite of laser era that interest started shifting away from.

And if I've understood this correctly some weigh these days in the 220g region? (Toyamas B2 SS weighs about 200) And if so they are entering in the world of the middle weights. So where's the appeal anymore? Just another well made middleweight that the world is full of.

If I'd splurge on a Kato only to find out it weighs 220 or less I'd be pretty pissed. It would not be what I would be looking for at all in a Kato (or toyama either) because I wouldn't be getting the experience the guy is known for.

And please be gentle. Not looking to get my head taken off. i like my head, but I am genuinely wondering.
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you cant conflate Toyama and Kato like that.

recent Katos 240s are still in the high 200 gram region.

recent Toyamas and Wats may be thinner, sure, but the grind is still well executed, the heat treat is very good, the price is reasonable, and they're quite tall so they still have their own merits.

but Toyama and Kato were always very different knives.

Im not going to try to justify recent Kato prices though. Im one of the more vocal folks here that while my Kato workhorse is my favorite knife, that I think the current prices for them are out of wack and not worth it. if Im spending >1k on a 240 gyuto it's going to be a honyaki, and that's just the end of it for me. other folks may have differing opinions.

I was lucky enough to grab mine some years ago when they were "just" in the 500 dollar range and I thought it was worth it at that price. I still feel like that's a fair price for a knife like that given you get a garbage handle and no saya but clearly the market disagrees.
 
In general I will say buying Kato is like going to theater and watch a "super movie"
Before you go, your friends that have already watched it will keep trying to convince you that this is the greatest movie ever and show you all the spoilers. By the time you arrived at the theater your expectation is so jacked up that anything didn't match the tittle "greatest ever" will be a disappointment.
The joy of discovery was completely ruined and only left with a check off list like if you are auditing the movie.

I have owned and used few deviance model that avk210 was asking about; both in 210 and 240 KU, KU WH, Kasumi WH, STD; they are all very different knives and I love them all (maybe not the price).
My experience is like I mentioned earlier with the movie example. I had so much expectation when buying my first Kato (Kato STD 240), I was ready to sell all my knives to just get my hands on one of those. After receiving it in the mail my first impression was " That's it?" this halfAzz finish just caused me more than 1k??? It was waves and waves of disappointments, for a while I thought the choil underfinsh was pittings lol.
However later I realize to truly appreciate Kato's work; it only happens after you are settle with your feelings and unreal expectations.
Kato don't shine till you start using them, try using Kato for a month and go back to other knives and that's when you realize they are so great.


My favorite functional Kato is my KU WH 210 (I also own the 240 but haven't got around to it)
The profile on my KU WH was perfect to me. It takes the best from both STD and Kasumi WH.
For example the tip is not so tall like a traditional Kasumi WH but with additional heel height. The KU finish really pushes the food release functionality.



Regarding the price on Kato, the market pricing of the knives are only reasonable if we are willing to pay for it.
We are paying hundreds and thousands of dollars for old rocks someone digged out from a corner of a mountain and I never seen anybody questioning it.
 
Slight off topic here.

Which makers are credited with the start of the Workhorse trend? Is Kato the originator? Toyamabanabe? I got into Japanese knives about 6-7 years ago and I feel like things were starting to trend towards WH grinds already when I started buying. Around that time there was still a lot of discussion of lasers (Gingas and HD2 konosukes were still getting a lot of hype), but I remember a lot of stuff coming out of even Takefu knife village was getting marketed as workhorse-ish. Just curious who the originator is considered
 
Alder26 said:
Slight off topic here.

Which makers are credited with the start of the Workhorse trend? Is Kato the originator? Toyamabanabe? I got into Japanese knives about 6-7 years ago and I feel like things were starting to trend towards WH grinds already when I started buying. Around that time there was still a lot of discussion of lasers (Gingas and HD2 konosukes were still getting a lot of hype), but I remember a lot of stuff coming out of even Takefu knife village was getting marketed as workhorse-ish. Just curious who the originator is considered
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Kato I think
 
JNS only made up the label "workhorse". That style of knives existed before that.
 
If your a fan of hand made steel from a craftsman who been working a trade for 60 years. An artist who employs the traditional ways of Japanese blacksmithing, who makes a piece from start to finish. Kato should be on your short list of J knife makers. If you haven’t held or seen an old school Kato... you don’t know what your missing.
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Gjackson98 said:
In general I will say buying Kato is like going to theater and watch a "super movie"
Before you go, your friends that have already watched it will keep trying to convince you that this is the greatest movie ever and show you all the spoilers. By the time you arrived at the theater your expectation is so jacked up that anything didn't match the tittle "greatest ever" will be a disappointment.
The joy of discovery was completely ruined and only left with a check off list like if you are auditing the movie.

I have owned and used few deviance model that avk210 was asking about; both in 210 and 240 KU, KU WH, Kasumi WH, STD; they are all very different knives and I love them all (maybe not the price).
My experience is like I mentioned earlier with the movie example. I had so much expectation when buying my first Kato (Kato STD 240), I was ready to sell all my knives to just get my hands on one of those. After receiving it in the mail my first impression was " That's it?" this halfAzz finish just caused me more than 1k??? It was waves and waves of disappointments, for a while I thought the choil underfinsh was pittings lol.
However later I realize to truly appreciate Kato's work; it only happens after you are settle with your feelings and unreal expectations.
Kato don't shine till you start using them, try using Kato for a month and go back to other knives and that's when you realize they are so great.


My favorite functional Kato is my KU WH 210 (I also own the 240 but haven't got around to it)
The profile on my KU WH was perfect to me. It takes the best from both STD and Kasumi WH.
For example the tip is not so tall like a traditional Kasumi WH but with additional heel height. The KU finish really pushes the food release functionality.



Regarding the price on Kato, the market pricing of the knives are only reasonable if we are willing to pay for it.
We are paying hundreds and thousands of dollars for old rocks someone digged out from a corner of a mountain and I never seen anybody questioning it.
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KU WH 210 👍🏻. Totally agree on that one
 
Eloh said:
That's all understandable, it's still hard to see a coarse belt grinder finish on a $1000 knife and you cant fault people to mention it imo :D
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I think the vertical grind marks are made with a hand cutting/scraping tool called a Sen.
 
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