KitchenKnifeForums: A Boulevard of Broken BST

[NotAddictedYet]

Came across this meta analysis blog post of KKF. We are famous now!

Edit: man I could not get the media link to work. Here is the link Medium KKF blog post

 

[dehory]

This should be interesting…

 

[Heckel7302]

“For several years, if asked what online forum represented the largest, most authoritative resource on kitchen knives, there was some debate between Reddit’s r/chefknives and KitchenKnifeForums (KKF). Since July 2023, the latter reigns supreme.”

Was this ever really a debate?

 

[tostadas]

The author appears to be the reddit user marine775. The article is stretching to make a generalization of the forum using a very select sample of the worst of BST over several years. Personally I've found KKF marketplace to be the opposite of what he's trying to describe. Maybe I'm also biased.

 

[tostadas]

Article brought to you from the same author as the definitive guide to knife grinds via choil shots:

What do I look for in a choil shot

 

[dehory]

Article brought to you from the same author as the definitive guide to knife grinds via choil shots:



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TBF, that choil shot article is a basic overview targeted at the absolute novice - I don’t know that it’s supposed to be a “definitive guide” - and I quite enjoyed this piece that he wrote a while back about the Konosuke/Omega saga.

 

[Jovidah]

The whole tone really sounds like he has an axe to grind... is he someone who was banned here in the past? BST isn't perfect...and I probably agree with some of his points / suggestions, but he's making it sound like it's some cutthroat snakepit. He's also outright wrong about some parts; under the current rules G&S actually IS required.
His image that KKF is just a flock of sharks preying on newbies is an outright slanderous statement that IMO shares no relationship with the truth.

And just because certain 'themes' pop up, like 'retiring chef', or 'brand new knives' doesn't mean they're necessarily incorrect. Sometimes GLWS really does mean just that... instead of being sarcastic.
Personally I've picked up many a good deal on BST...and the few knives I've sold onwards were always priced and represented fairly. I think that's true for the majority of members here.

 

[Heckel7302]

The one thing I do agree with is the no negative comments on BST threads. It’s an online forum. As long as the comments are related to the the knife or seller, let people say what they want to say. If someone is being abusive or inappropriate, just report them. No need for a global ban on all critical comments.

 

[tostadas]

TBF, that choil shot article is a basic overview targeted at the absolute novice - I don’t know that it’s supposed to be a “definitive guide” - and I quite enjoyed this piece that he wrote a while back about the Konosuke/Omega saga.

Yea I meant to imply that reddit tends to put heavy weight on choil shots over all else. Didn't come out clearly, my bad.

The whole tone really sounds like he has an axe to grind... is he someone who was banned here in the past? BST isn't perfect...and I probably agree with some of his points / suggestions, but he's making it sound like it's some cutthroat snakepit. He's also outright wrong about some parts; under the current rules G&S actually IS required.
His image that KKF is just a flock of sharks preying on newbies is an outright slanderous statement that IMO shares no relationship with the truth.

And just because certain 'themes' pop up, like 'retiring chef', or 'brand new knives' doesn't mean they're necessarily incorrect. Sometimes GLWS really does mean just that... instead of being sarcastic.
Personally I've picked up many a good deal on BST...and the few knives I've sold onwards were always priced and represented fairly. I think that's true for the majority of members here.

I believe he is a forum member under the name @Mariner

 

[Tekkz]

The whole tone really sounds like he has an axe to grind... is he someone who was banned here in the past? BST isn't perfect...and I probably agree with some of his points / suggestions, but he's making it sound like it's some cutthroat snakepit. He's also outright wrong about some parts; under the current rules G&S actually IS required.
His image that KKF is just a flock of sharks preying on newbies is an outright slanderous statement that IMO shares no relationship with the truth.

And just because certain 'themes' pop up, like 'retiring chef', or 'brand new knives' doesn't mean they're necessarily incorrect.
Personally I've picked up many a good deal on BST...and the few knives I've sold onwards were always priced and represented fairly. I think that's true for the majority of members here.

The current rules basically state G&S is required in the public post, but makes it seem like it's totally OK for sellers to ask for F&F in dms. I experienced this firsthand. I think the rules should be clarified that sellers cannot ask for F&F in dms.

 

[bahamaroot]

Another "Internet Expert" born from the Reddit cesspool.

 

[Jovidah]

The current rules basically state G&S is required in the public post, but makes it seem like it's totally OK for sellers to ask for F&F in dms. I experienced this firsthand. I think the rules should be clarified that sellers cannot ask for F&F in dms.

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But how is KKF supposed to enforce what's going on in PMs? Do you really want an admin censor office to start reading every PM?
In the end the buyer can always so no in this regard. If a seller insists on F&F, you're free to report them, but beyond that there's not much the mods can do.

 

[SwampDonkey]

Lol I'm full of snark but "GLWS" never even crossed my mind to be anything but a nice way to bump someone's listing.

 

[Tekkz]

But how is KKF supposed to enforce what's going on in PMs? Do you really want an admin censor office to start reading every PM?
In the end the buyer can always so no in this regard. If a seller insists on F&F, you're free to report them, but beyond that there's not much the mods can do.

Clarify the rules on F&F, have punishments for breaking the rules, apply the punishments when the rules are broken and brought to their attention. Obviously they aren't going to be reading people's PMs. Right now it's not clear if a seller asking for F&F in a PM is even against the rules. Only that they can't ask for it in the BST post.

 

[shopshopshop]

As someone relatively new to this forum and who doesn't post much, but looks at BST out of curiousity fairly frequently (though have never bought or sold) I think it's fairly likely that many claims of "like new" "never sharpened" "BNIB" are:

1. Frequently not true
2. Unverifiable

Banning critical comments on seller threads IS a risk for newer users. What is the stated benefit of this policy? If users are targeted by unwelcome harassment that is not related to knife selling, i.e., sexual harassment or similar, then that should be addressed by moderaters.

If a user posts a knife, and others know that the seller is untrustworthy, or that the knife is not what it seems, this should be posted and addressed to help newer users not get scammed.

 

[OkayMode]

The current rules basically state G&S is required in the public post, but makes it seem like it's totally OK for sellers to ask for F&F in dms. I experienced this firsthand. I think the rules should be clarified that sellers cannot ask for F&F in dms.

View attachment 283724
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I sympathise with you entirely, but G&S is pretty flawed too and pushes the risk disproportionately back on the seller.

I am now reluctant to accept G&S because of a very unpleasant experience with a new member, who tried to extort a partial refund despite the item being as pictured and described, with the threat of raising a claim with PP if I didn’t comply. I don’t trust (or expect) PayPal to adjudicate a claim fairly, because they aren’t nerds like us

If G&S became mandated, I simply wouldn’t sell to anyone I didn’t already know well or who was an established member of the forum, so new joiners would still be losing out.

The ideal scenario would be some form of escrow system with an impartial figure verifying the transaction, but that would be administratively unworkable.

My view is that a combination of allowing critical comments in BST posts and an expectation communicated to new members that they should spend some time getting their toes wet in the forum before diving into BST would help a lot.

It’s a tricky one!

 

[SwampDonkey]

Always have wondered what the hell is up with BNIB. I take a knife out of the box and use it the instant I get it. If I don't like it, then I sharpen it and see how that goes, most of the time it makes a big difference! Then I use the knife for a while longer to see what it is and isn't good at and then if it isn't for me then it goes to BST. Never understood how someone can buy a knife and then just not use it at least once unless its some obvious collector/unicorn piece that they don't like the initial feel of and are afraid to knock a large price chunk off by using.

 

[DrEriksson]

I think some real problems are being addressed. It’s easy to shrug it off with ad hominem, but that is not fruitful for anything productive.

I agree with much of the post. It is a problem that we can’t bring issues with knives to the surface in a way that protects buyers. I also think that the policy for payments should extend into DMs (where a party is allowed to show proof from DMs if the other party doesn’t accept G&S/invoice).

I also think there is an issue with knives being sold with either too positive description or without accurately showing the state of the knife (the famous potato pic). There are measures to take that would reduce these issues.

 

[Jovidah]

I think some real problems are being addressed. It’s easy to shrug it off with ad hominem, but that is not fruitful for anything productive.

I agree, but the problem is that the original blog post wasn't exactly written in an honest and objective fashion... rather it was written in a way that felt rather insulting as someone who's been a member of this community for a while. Kinda undermines anything he tried to bring up - which I already said some of which I did actually agree with and asked for myself in the past).

 

[SwampDonkey]

I sympathise with you entirely, but G&S is pretty flawed too and pushes the risk disproportionately back on the seller.

PP sucks! It was on reddit but I sold a knife through G&S and UPS delivered the package to the wrong address. My first time dealing with this we filed a claim or whatever on PP. The tracking info was uploaded to PP, the buyer told them it was no fault of mine but UPS, and they still withdrew $200 from my account and gave full refund to buyer and denied appeal.

Luckily the buyer was great and sent it back to me and UPS insurance paid for the lost item but like hot damn what a bad experience. Unfortunately no other good way to protect the buyer though, so it's just the seller's problem. I'm always very clear with my buyers that I'd like to take any issues to the shipper FIRST.

 

[OkayMode]

Never understood how someone can buy a knife and then just not use it at least once unless its some obvious collector/unicorn piece that they don't like the initial feel of and are afraid to knock a large price chunk off by using.

…Guilty

If something arrives and it stays in the box for a while in favour of other knives in my collection, I reach the conclusion that I can’t be that psyched on it and would rather move it on at that point as BNIB than knock value off by sharpening it.

 

[Barclid]

Lol I'm full of snark but "GLWS" never even crossed my mind to be anything but a nice way to bump someone's listing.

Maybe it predates you joining the forum, but it very much is a thing. The only real "problem" is that it's not always coded sarcasm, often people generally mean it. But you can absolutely find examples of shady BST threads with massive GLWS chains because no actual negative comments were allowed.

 

[DrEriksson]

I agree, but the problem is that the original blog post wasn't exactly written in an honest and objective fashion... rather it was written in a way that felt rather insulting as someone who's been a member of this community for a while. Kinda undermines anything he tried to bring up - which I already said some of which I did actually agree with and asked for myself in the past).

Where do you think he’s out of line? (To clarify, this isn’t a GLWS comment, I’m curious for real.) Is he just wrong about stuff, or is it acceptable “sass” to get a debate going?

 

[Jovidah]

Where do you think he’s out of line? (To clarify, this isn’t a GLWS comment, I’m curious for real.) Is he just wrong about stuff, or is it acceptable “sass” to get a debate going?

The general tone and way he represents the place... Like I said before, he kinda makes it seem like it's just a snake pit where it's just older members praying on the new, and that all sales are disingenous.

Quietly, just about every veteran knife nerd admits that BST’s greatest use is for clearing disappointments and developing their taste in knives without shouldering as much risk

Why is BST so notoriously bad?

Furthermore, established cliques have few compunctions about deceiving newcomers in order to secure favorable selling conditions.

The situation has gotten so bad that it’s developed a shorthand in BST: GLWS, or “good luck with sale”. This is coded sarcasm for a knife that should never reasonably sell given the assumed condition/price.

Then we get some cherrypicked examples that go beyond the fact that the excesses are the exception, not the norm. Like I said I think the general tone and way it's written just isn't really fair.

He aded a correction about the G&S / F&F aspect of the rules... but he was outright wrong about that in the initial post.

He also seems to not really give any space for the fact that some rules are the way they are for good reason...and that the mods here are just volunteers, which creates limitations on how far they can go. If I didn't know any better I'd walk away with the idea that the entire thing is setup the way it is for profit-driven reasons, which simply isn't the case.

Wanting to get a debate going is fine, but if you're saying 'there's nothing but criminals in city X' that's IMO not the way to get a debate going about how to improve something in city X.

 

[OkayMode]

The general tone and way he represents the place... Like I said before, he kinda makes it seem like it's just a snake pit where it's just older members praying on the new, and that all sales are disingenous.

Quietly, just about every veteran knife nerd admits that BST’s greatest use is for clearing disappointments and developing their taste in knives without shouldering as much risk

Why is BST so notoriously bad?

Furthermore, established cliques have few compunctions about deceiving newcomers in order to secure favorable selling conditions.

The situation has gotten so bad that it’s developed a shorthand in BST: GLWS, or “good luck with sale”. This is coded sarcasm for a knife that should never reasonably sell given the assumed condition/price.

Then we get some cherrypicked examples that go beyond the fact that the excesses are the exception, not the norm. Like I said I think the general tone and way it's written just isn't really fair.
Wanting to get a debate going is fine, but if you're saying 'there's nothing but criminals in city X' that's IMO not the way to get a debate going about how to improve something in city X.

I agree it’s not quite the lawless hinterland it’s made out to be in the article.

When I first joined I even had one or two cases where a seasoned member messaged me to steer me away from a dodgy listing I had expressed interest in.

 

[kinglukas38]

The general tone and way he represents the place... Like I said before, he kinda makes it seem like it's just a snake pit where it's just older members praying on the new, and that all sales are disingenous.

Quietly, just about every veteran knife nerd admits that BST’s greatest use is for clearing disappointments and developing their taste in knives without shouldering as much risk

Why is BST so notoriously bad?

Furthermore, established cliques have few compunctions about deceiving newcomers in order to secure favorable selling conditions.

The situation has gotten so bad that it’s developed a shorthand in BST: GLWS, or “good luck with sale”. This is coded sarcasm for a knife that should never reasonably sell given the assumed condition/price.

Then we get some cherrypicked examples that go beyond the fact that the excesses are the exception, not the norm. Like I said I think the general tone and way it's written just isn't really fair.

He also seems to not really give any space for the fact that some rules are the way they are for good reason...and that the mods here are just volunteers, which creates limitations on how far they can go. If I didn't know any better I'd walk away with the idea that the entire thing is setup the way it is for profit-driven reasons, which simply isn't the case.

Wanting to get a debate going is fine, but if you're saying 'there's nothing but criminals in city X' that's IMO not the way to get a debate going about how to improve something in city X.

How much draw would a post have if it was titled: "KKF bst is OK most of the time, but it should change some things"

I'm betting much less than what has been posted.

 

[DrEriksson]

The general tone and way he represents the place... Like I said before, he kinda makes it seem like it's just a snake pit where it's just older members praying on the new, and that all sales are disingenous.

Quietly, just about every veteran knife nerd admits that BST’s greatest use is for clearing disappointments and developing their taste in knives without shouldering as much risk

Why is BST so notoriously bad?

Furthermore, established cliques have few compunctions about deceiving newcomers in order to secure favorable selling conditions.

The situation has gotten so bad that it’s developed a shorthand in BST: GLWS, or “good luck with sale”. This is coded sarcasm for a knife that should never reasonably sell given the assumed condition/price.

Then we get some cherrypicked examples that go beyond the fact that the excesses are the exception, not the norm. Like I said I think the general tone and way it's written just isn't really fair.

He also seems to not really give any space for the fact that some rules are the way they are for good reason...and that the mods here are just volunteers, which creates limitations on how far they can go. If I didn't know any better I'd walk away with the idea that the entire thing is setup the way it is for profit-driven reasons, which simply isn't the case.

Wanting to get a debate going is fine, but if you're saying 'there's nothing but criminals in city X' that's IMO not the way to get a debate going about how to improve something in city X.

I see your point. I think the text you quote is accurate. It’s the best place to sell knives and there are users who have a reputation for not being honest. So I think we disagree there. But I see why someone would dislike the overall tone, even though I think it serves a purpose.

Thanks for expanding a bit. I appreciate it.

 

[Jovidah]

FWIW regardless of my criticism of the blog post and how he tried to start the debate I am actually inclined to agree with his #1 and #2 solutions. I think plenty here share such sentiments... and you can find plenty of lengthy debate on the subject in the flipper thread. Though others also disagreed for their own - and often valid - reasons.

 

[Corradobrit1]

“For several years, if asked what online forum represented the largest, most authoritative resource on kitchen knives, there was some debate between Reddit’s r/chefknives and KitchenKnifeForums (KKF). Since July 2023, the latter reigns supreme.”

Was this ever really a debate?

What, no love for CKTG?

 

[HumbleHomeCook]

I enjoy how he paints the picture of the sub-forum being dominated by shadiness.

I also enjoy how he posted it all on a separate blog instead of here on KKF where the comments could be addressed directly. I wonder if he stomped his foot too?

I guess he doesn't have to partake in BST or KKF at all. In fact, no one does, especially if it is so shady and the admins/mods are so much more concerned with profit than fair sales. I mean, if that's true, and people just stop buying on BST, then people will stop selling on BST and then... no more profits. Right?

Good grief.