Kkf just a place for knife sale profit?

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Ummmmm, cause you haven't started it.........?

Of course you would have to volunteer to moderate it, fact check prices paid vs prices for sale, , mediate any disputed "facts", establish mark up thresholds not to be exceeded, substantiate all accusations and calculate future value of said knife. If you're in I'll pitch it to Angie:cool:

In all seriousness there have been flipper alerts in the past on a case by case basis. Most have had positive outcomes.
 
I think there are two BSTs really—
(1) the BST of people who contribute actively, of known names who buy and sell so they can use new knives, who view KKF as a community and contribute, and
(2) the BST of people trying to profit (or post WTB Kato/Shig/Fujiyama) without contributing to the forum.

From here, it seems to me that it boils down to two ways of viewing/using BST:
Either as
(1) as a place for enthusiasts/hobbyists/knifenerds (whatever you want to call “us”) to sell things (usually below cost) so that others can give new stuff a try, or
(2) just as a marketplace, akin to free online classifieds—a Craigslist for knives.

I think it’s fair to view the forum as a community with norms as opposed to just an online bulletin board marketplace. I share Chinacats apprehension about flipping/profiteering. Sure, it always takes two to Tango on BST… but if BST just becomes a space for people to buy and sell with no intention of contributing to the forum, then this is a bummer of a direction for the forum to be heading...
 
This has been hashed out so many times now. As long as there are rare and low supply items there will be flipping. It's like that with every commodity, hobby and collectable. Always been that way and always will. On my "things to worry about in life" list, this one doesn't make it.
 
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DitmasPork said:
If you boot these so called "flippers," you'd boot most if not all of the sellers. Defining "flipper" becomes murky at best.
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I try to word my reply in a way that it would not sound very serious. It is impossible to draw a line. But if someone is shooting for the stars, than you know it.

And I would definitely not call a flipper every person who sells an item for more they bought it. One example could be buying natural stones from unreliable sources (buyee, etc), testing them and selling them for more if they are really good. Doing so adds value for the buyer. Of course selling them for several times as much and failing to mention that that “Maruoyama Suita” (just an example I just made up) was actually a noname stone off buyee and is only considered to be one is, well, lying. If someone does this on a regular basis and us pricing the stones in a way to make up for the losses from bad stones and still wanting to make a profit. Well - such a person should register asva small business owner and come to KKF as a wendor.

I know I get worked up too much over this, but that is apparently a part of who I am. I get therapy sessions from Dave regularly to stay in line.
 
DitmasPork said:
Look up prices for Fujiyamas, Katos, Shigs. Though true that knives that aren't rare, made by revered makers with low-production output, still available, often sell for a loss, no one would buy them otherwise.
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Yup, that's basically what I'm saying: other than a few Katos, the original sharpener Fujiyama, or fancy Shigs (the readily available KU nakiri/santoku no), flipperitis is not a big problem on BST here. I agree with you that BST is best left mostly hands off as a marketplace by the KKF administration. The current rules are sufficient to protect the value of the vendor memberships and to keep things civil among forumites IMHO.

Edited to add: Some variation on this thread has occurred plenty times before, and it doesn't seem like there's anything new to add? LOL
 
milkbaby said:
Yup, that's basically what I'm saying: other than a few Katos, the original sharpener Fujiyama, or fancy Shigs (the readily available KU nakiri/santoku no), flipperitis is not a big problem on BST here. I agree with you that BST is best left mostly hands off as a marketplace by the KKF administration. The current rules are sufficient to protect the value of the vendor memberships and to keep things civil among forumites IMHO.

Edited to add: Some variation on this thread has occurred plenty times before, and it doesn't seem like there's anything new to add? LOL
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The value of KKF BST for me is mainly educational, learning about knives and their valuation, as well as window shopping, the knives I've bought and traded aren't rare. Katos/Shigs far beyond my economic reach at current prices—I like looking though.
 
How about no rules on what people can post or buy on BST, but we are allowed one sticky thread in the Kitchen Knives sub forum or another subforum where discussion of any listing is allowed? People are allowed to ask questions on a listing as well as mention that something is unfairly priced or not. It's up to the buyer to check this thread if they want this type of discussion.

This would be very in the spirit of the community (because people clearly want to point out listings that don't make sense to them) but would avoid this type of discussion in the BST subforum.
 
How about this? Self Goverence

When we see a Matsumi Hinoura marketed as a Tsukasa, call it out. If you see a $30 crap stone being sold for $600, call it out. If you see a phony picture,call it out. If you see someone selling a reprofiled knife as a BNIB, call that out. When you see someone call something out when they shouldn't, call them out nicely (with reason). Im not saying its always malicious (most of the time it isnt).

I came, I learned, I stayed. All because I feel this was a good "community", where people learned knowledge and passes it on to others seeking the same, asking nothing in return. A community will have its ups and downs; disagreements, as-wipe memembers, DBs, and abusers are a part of any community. If we want to rise above it, then members should take pride, ownership, and leadership of their community.

KKF should be an oasis of knife knowledge, facts and ideas. Not a cheap sleazy bus stop motel where people pass on through, read old posts like cheap pamphlets and made shady deals in the BST parking lot.
 
Xenif said:
How about this? Self Goverence

When we see a Matsumi Hinoura marketed as a Tsukasa, call it out. If you see a $30 crap stone being sold for $600, call it out. If you see a phony picture,call it out. If you see someone selling a reprofiled knife as a BNIB, call that out. When you see someone call something out when they shouldn't, call them out nicely (with reason). Im not saying its always malicious (most of the time it isnt).

I came, I learned, I stayed. All because I feel this was a good "community", where people learned knowledge and passes it on to others seeking the same, asking nothing in return. A community will have its ups and downs; disagreements, as-wipe memembers, DBs, and abusers are a part of any community. If we want to rise above it, then members should take pride, ownership, and leadership of their community.

KKF should be an oasis of knife knowledge, facts and ideas. Not a cheap sleazy bus stop motel where people pass on through, read old posts like cheap pamphlets and made shady deals in the BST parking lot.
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Totally agree, hence my suggestion above. You want to keep BST neutral, but if you want to **** on someone else's pricing, there is a separate room for that.
 
There are definitely more than a few serial sellers on KKF that I would never in a million years buy anything from. BST is not a convenience for members anymore -- some are using it as a quasi-business platform. While there have always been resellers, etc. on the various knife forums, many stayed in the background and conducted business via PMs, etc. but these days there are a crop of people who have no hesitation to sell in a manner that shows they seek to profit only, and not to trade with fellow enthusiasts/ pro users -- and that is very apparent by the jacked-up prices.
 
I am for the most part a lurker on this forum and I see this subject come up on a semi regular basis and I don’t understand why. Live your life and let others live theirs. If somebody wants to sell a knife at whatever price they want and somebody else is willing to pay that price, how is that your business? There is nothing you can do to stop it and from what I can see, it doesn’t hurt the spirit of this forum which is the exchange (or in my case, absorption) of information between enthusiasts. If it means so much to you, don’t sell to nor buy from these people that you find so repugnant.
 
JChooMtl said:
I am for the most part a lurker on this forum and I see this subject come up on a semi regular basis and I don’t understand why. Live your life and let others live theirs. If somebody wants to sell a knife at whatever price they want and somebody else is willing to pay that price, how is that your business? There is nothing you can do to stop it and from what I can see, it doesn’t hurt the spirit of this forum which is the exchange (or in my case, absorption) of information between enthusiasts. If it means so much to you, don’t sell to nor buy from these people that you find so repugnant.
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I think people agree. They just want to be able to provide disclosure at their leisure. In other words, they want to be allowed to call it out.
 
I am for the most part a lurker on this forum and I see this subject come up on a semi regular basis and I don’t understand why. Live your life and let others live theirs. If somebody wants to sell a knife at whatever price they want and somebody else is willing to pay that price, how is that your business? There is nothing you can do to stop it and from what I can see, it doesn’t hurt the spirit of this forum which is the exchange (or in my case, absorption) of information between enthusiasts. If it means so much to you, don’t sell to nor buy from these people that you find so repugnant.
 
I don't think people agree at all...

KKF enables this cancer by providing a high visibility, low cost, therfor high-profit platform for activities that are arguably sketchy and even illegal (tax evasion, money laundering, customs fraud, etc)...especially with international buyers/sellers and market arbitrage (eu/VAT taxes etc).

Flipping is a "community" problem because the items are not commodities and the markets are not truly competitive (econo 101)...there is a zero sum game for the production runs of certain makers, so every knife a flipper secures from a maker's limited run is another chef/cook/professional that is excluded if not by simply the economics of huge markups, even just from the waitlist (see abolishment of waitlists for shigefusa and others).

Since all of these low-paid professionals contribute alot of the content to KKF, its a sort of "spitting in the face" to them and a sign of general dis-respect.

Like many here I'm not really interested in re-hashing the arguments, but its always worth restating why there are in fact multiple sides to the issue. Even if you want to "agree to disagree" its better to not have your head stuck in the sand of what you are agreeing to ignore.

That's my $0.02

Oh, and GLWS :)
 
So essentially knives are not immune from the market forces that rule every other aspect of our lives?

I have long been priced out of an authentic Kramer, or a Shigefusa and Kato for that matter so I will have to just make do with my Mazakis, and Wakui, and Kochi, and Munetoshi, and Kaeru, and whatever your high value, readily available knife of choice is. Anybody in a similar situation who feels they are being disrespected or are being spit in the face might need to evaluate their sense of entitlement.
 
JChooMtl said:
So essentially knives are not immune from the market forces that rule every other aspect of our lives?

I have long been priced out of an authentic Kramer, or a Shigefusa and Kato for that matter so I will have to just make do with my Mazakis, and Wakui, and Kochi, and Munetoshi, and Kaeru, and whatever your high value, readily available knife of choice is. Anybody in a similar situation who feels they are being disrespected or are being spit in the face might need to evaluate their sense of entitlement.
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And market forces include discussion on the topic, which is currently not allowed.
 
Well, here's my 0.02$:

I think KKF is a great community and also its spirit on BST works quite well. I think, you can see mostly reasonably priced transactions. It gets a little tricky with rare knives, collectors items, if you want to call it that. I'd say Kato, Shig, those are priced above their value or purchase price. While this isn't exactly the KKF spirit, it is understandable. This is a hype or bubble at the moment, and maybe prices will go down again, maybe not. Who knows?

See it from a seller's point of view: why sell a knife cheap and see it pop up maybe even on BST some days later for double or triple its selling price?

If somebody is willing to pay high prices just for the sake of collecting, so be it. This is just capitalism/supply&demand, whether we like it or not. Most buyers, believe it or not, are adults who can make their own decisions, deciding whether they want something for price x, or not... See it from the buyer's perspective: you see a knife (or are offered one) for a certain price: it is up to you to decide if that asking price is what you are willing to pay for it. If yes, fine, you got what you wanted. If not, walk away. No need to be offended or angry.
 
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I think everybody overlooked what I consider the most important 4 words in the OP: "Community aspect is toast". The debate about who's legal, who's grey, who's flipping, who's shilling, etc....all this centers around BST. As does a lot of moderation.
If I had better IT mojo, I'd look at the daily % activity among all the sub-forums. If BST is way more active than all the other subs, then I would say that chinacats has a legitimate argument regarding the community aspect. It would also make me sad.
If vendors are being marginalized or are leaving, that would be a damned shame since the vendors were an integral part of the KKF community at its inception, and not just because they sold stuff.
 
ecchef said:
I think everybody overlooked what I consider the most important 4 words in the OP: "Community aspect is toast". The debate about who's legal, who's grey, who's flipping, who's shilling, etc....all this centers around BST. As does a lot of moderation.
If I had better IT mojo, I'd look at the daily % activity among all the sub-forums. If BST is way more active than all the other subs, then I would say that chinacats has a legitimate argument regarding the community aspect. It would also make me sad.
If vendors are being marginalized or are leaving, that would be a damned shame since the vendors were an integral part of the KKF community at its inception, and not just because they sold stuff.
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I am honestly curious about statistics. I have a feeling BST is garnering the vast majority of clicks, views and attention. Just a guess.
 
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