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Kkf just a place for knife sale profit?
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Corradobrit1
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Progressive monkeys
I wanna be an Orangutan....
Some of this is useful. Some is funny. Some is frustrating A lot is a real yawner. And this one is wrong.
Post count matters to initiate a thread in bst. To offer to buy or sell something. Once the thread is up, anyone can comment on it.
As for the rest, the fundamental issue still has not been addressed. If negative commentary is allowed, who determines if it's factual? Who plays the role of the KKF Snopes? Not me! Nor are any other moderators willing. Too much ado about nothing.
It remains that most of the bst activity is someone passing along a 2 - 500 knife that doesn't suit them but may suit another.
It remains that most of the bst activity is positive, with both parties benefiting.
It remains that "flipping" occurs, in a small percentage of the threads, usually one collector to another. If you don't know what you're doing in these waters, you'll probably learn fast cause education is not cheap. But it's not going to kill you either.
And my mantra: It's not flipped until someone buys it.
ECChef is right.
Some of this is useful. Some is funny. Some is frustrating A lot is a real yawner. And this one is wrong.
Post count matters to initiate a thread in bst. To offer to buy or sell something. Once the thread is up, anyone can comment on it.
As for the rest, the fundamental issue still has not been addressed. If negative commentary is allowed, who determines if it's factual? Who plays the role of the KKF Snopes? Not me! Nor are any other moderators willing. Too much ado about nothing.
It remains that most of the bst activity is someone passing along a 2 - 500 knife that doesn't suit them but may suit another.
It remains that most of the bst activity is positive, with both parties benefiting.
It remains that "flipping" occurs, in a small percentage of the threads, usually one collector to another. If you don't know what you're doing in these waters, you'll probably learn fast cause education is not cheap. But it's not going to kill you either.
And my mantra: It's not flipped until someone buys it.
ECChef is right.
Thanks a lot Dave here I wrote this long post addressing every point in detail and you come here and say basically the same thing in a much more succinct form, thanks a lot! In the famous words of Urkle "I don't have to take this I am going home...."
here I wrote this long post addressing every point in detail and you come here and say basically the same thing in a much more succinct form, thanks a lot! In the famous words of Urkle "I don't have to take this I am going home...." 
Michi
I dislike attempts to rewrite history
Once upon a time, people bought things from classified ads in newspapers. They didn't have a comment feature either…
Thanks a lot Dave
I've likely had more practice with this type of thread
Michi
I dislike attempts to rewrite history
A newspaper is an ingenious device that allows you to access any part of a data stream at will. You can rewind, fast forward, set bookmarks, jump backwards and forwards by an arbitrary amount, or consume the stream in sequential order. Newspapers are read-only (but do permit annotations), and they have no limit on the number of times the information can be read. (There are no problems with wear, so there is no need for wear levelling, such as with SSDs, and the information remains accessible indefinitely, even for centuries; no current server certificate or website is needed.) A newspaper does not require any batteries or internet connection. (It does not even require an initial download). In fact, it works indefinitely without any internal or external source of power. The only thing required for correct operation is a modicum of ambient light. (No additional hardware or reading device is needed.)
A newspaper is organised into informational units known as "pages" (similar to disk blocks). Pages are made from a durable, light-weight, and flexible material (a large part of which is cellulose, which is renewable), and hold a flexible amount of information, up to a limit that can be set by the publisher by selecting the appropriate information density (font size). Pages are very thin, so many of them can be stacked together into layers without noticeably increasing thickness of the overall device. Pages are non-magnetic and immune to high levels of radiation (such as an EMP), which allows them to survive even a nuclear holocaust. If pages are stacked to the extent that their thickness adds up to an appreciable amount (say, half an inch or more), the resulting device is known as a "book" (which is otherwise much like a newspaper, except that the pages are physically held together by stitching or glue along one edge, instead of being merely folded along one side).
Newspapers are transferable, so you can pass the device to a friend, who can consume the data stream without incurring additional license fees or having to create an account first. In fact, the data stream of a newspaper can be consumed in complete anonymity, without the need for a VPN or a Tor network. (Newspaper streams cannot be tracked, there are no cookies, and cross-scripting attacks are impossible.)
Besides being a wonderful device for consuming information (newspapers even support high-resolution colour images, although they do not support audio or video), they have a number of other, sometimes surprising uses. For example, if you find yourself stuck in the wilderness on a cold night, a newspaper can help you start a fire, cover you to protect you against the cold, shield you from rain and, during the hot parts of the day, can be used to provide shade or as a fly swat (or a mosquito swat at dusk). In a true emergency, with the addition of a little bit of salt or stock, a newspaper can even be used to supplement nutrition (although the caloric value is low, so it is used in that role mainly when there is no other readily available source of ballast).
If nature calls, a newspaper can be extremely useful to deal with an unpleasant aspect of being alive (having to consume nutrients and excrete their undesirable contaminants). It also (whether used in such a manner or not) makes for a fine addition to whatever compost and/or fertiliser one wants to apply to one's organically-grown produce. In fact, newspapers are completely recyclable and have a near-zero carbon footprint. Newspaper lends itself as an excellent stropping material after finishing on a 5000-grit (or finer) stone, and a stack of it can be used as a convenient stool to sit on while sharpening (as well as an anti-slip mat to place underneath the stone, and to clean swarf from the stone afterwards).
The advantages of newspaper are too numerous to mention here. (There are many more, such as the use of newspaper for making paper mâché masks, lanterns, filling the voids in over-sized boots or gloves, as cat litter, as sound insulation, as a wound dressing, etc.) Suffice it to say that newspapers are a revolutionary device that will change the world as we know it, to the point of empowering the masses to take control of their own destiny, topple governments, and create a better future for us all…
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Is it possible this is really a thread about performance centric KKF members being bummed that it is Katos bringing the big money? I know I am. When it is a knife I am not indifferent to but actually actively dislike that is the big winner of the hype competition it makes me feel like the forum is failing somehow.
Also,
This thread gives me a lingering thought that Kato San would probably prefer to retire but all the capital is being put into the secondary market instead of going to him. I know the story of a 75 year old man doing all the work himself is romantic and all but when he is sore at the end of the day and he is in bed thinking about the Americans and Europeans not using his knives but selling them to each other for 2k each I wonder what he would contribute to this conversation.
He probably thinks the same things I do at this hour. ‘How am I not qualified to do anything else?’ And then, ‘My feet hurt.’
Also,
This thread gives me a lingering thought that Kato San would probably prefer to retire but all the capital is being put into the secondary market instead of going to him. I know the story of a 75 year old man doing all the work himself is romantic and all but when he is sore at the end of the day and he is in bed thinking about the Americans and Europeans not using his knives but selling them to each other for 2k each I wonder what he would contribute to this conversation.
He probably thinks the same things I do at this hour. ‘How am I not qualified to do anything else?’ And then, ‘My feet hurt.’
NBrewster
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As a relatively new user here (and a lurker on BST) I'd say that it's really obvious which knives are getting flipped vs which are not.
I don't click on shig or kato threads. Even when "reasonably" priced they're far more than I would ever consider spending on a knife. I learned that in the first 2 hours of browsing there. I do look at brands that I know to be reasonably priced and have almost pulled the trigger on a ginga, a DP, and a couple others that seem interesting from the "100 knives to try" thread.
I haven't read this whole thread because it's full of rants that I don't really care about, but the passion that everyone here feels about the community is part of what makes it great and keeps me - a serious home cook and the owner of a measly 4 gyutos (I know, hardly enough to make a salad) - coming back almost daily to see what's going on.
BST isn't broken, though the flippers can sometimes clog up the first page of BST and that is annoying. I honestly don't think there are any (unwitting) suckers who are casually dropping 1500 bucks on a knife. Just click "next" and dig for the good stuff!
I don't click on shig or kato threads. Even when "reasonably" priced they're far more than I would ever consider spending on a knife. I learned that in the first 2 hours of browsing there. I do look at brands that I know to be reasonably priced and have almost pulled the trigger on a ginga, a DP, and a couple others that seem interesting from the "100 knives to try" thread.
I haven't read this whole thread because it's full of rants that I don't really care about, but the passion that everyone here feels about the community is part of what makes it great and keeps me - a serious home cook and the owner of a measly 4 gyutos (I know, hardly enough to make a salad) - coming back almost daily to see what's going on.
BST isn't broken, though the flippers can sometimes clog up the first page of BST and that is annoying. I honestly don't think there are any (unwitting) suckers who are casually dropping 1500 bucks on a knife. Just click "next" and dig for the good stuff!
DitmasPork
Senior Member
Cheers. You make some good points.
I'm sure Kato-san is absolutely delighted at the much deserved recognition, status and current secondary market prices realized with his coveted knives. Pure conjecture on my part having never met the guy. Surely preferable to just being lost in the dark pit of obscurity, as someone producing great knives to little fanfare and respect. It's my guess that many ambitious, up-and-coming knife maker have similar aspirations.
For those that can't afford a Kato at current prices, sorry, you missed the boat—I can't afford an apartment in Manhattan, I missed that boat.
"Performance" is just one part of collecting—other reasons for a collector to acquire a knife might be rarity, valuation, provenance, hype, aesthetics, mystique, etc. Why someone buys or what they do with it is irrelevant. If someone buys a rare knife just to sit on it for the future fine, if it's to be used in a busy pro environ that's also fine.
It's like if a "newbie" wine enthusiast drops $3.5k on a 2010 Chateau Petrus for their first bottle—wine snobs might cringe, citing the drinker doesn't posses a palate that's developed or deserving enough for it. If the "newbie" has the funds, and a passion for wine, so be it.
There's no entitlement with great knives. Not everyone that wants a Kato or Shig will ever have one, nor should they. If it's that important to have a Kato, then you gotta beg, borrow, steal, sell the rest of your knives or a kidney, do whatever it takes to land one—welcome to the world of collecting. These days it's sooooo easy to find a superb, unique handmade knife in the $400–$700 price point. Think of Comet, Halcyon Forge, Marko Tsourkan, Shihan, Kippington, Evan Anzenberger—not too late to jump on those fine knives, before they slow down production many decades from now and become the next Katos and Shigs.
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chinacats
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I'm not sure what else you'd call them? They're certainly not folks that have been around for any amount of time as they used to sit unsold on jns for long periods while the Shigs were being snapped up...at least the Shigs are made by folks that care what they look like when finished. Only reason these are rare is because they're all being held for investment...yeah, good luck making profit on that 400 dollar knife you spent 1500 on...buy high sell low?
It doesn't work like that. They must be pretty good knives, you can't horde any run of the mill knives and create an exclusive market for them, can't be done. Not commenting if Kato are worth the price, to me they are not worth it, but that's my personal opinion. To me honyaki are not worth the price either, but that has nothing to do with anything. The buyers of these knives are not (unwitting) suckers, they just have their own reasons and value measures. We don't have to agree or even understand them, but we should also not disrespect or save them. Noone is being hurt by this, maybe annoying to some, but noone is being duped or hurt.
chinacats
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I understand what you're saying but again I'd suggest at least the following are 'hurt' by this:
Vendors who compete for same knife $
Taxman who gets nothing out of these sales which increases everyone elses tax burden in one way or another.
Ripple effect of pricing on other knives. This effect is felt directly by anyone who buys knives.
Maker who sees none of these profits.
KKF which doesn't get these sellers as vendors but is used as free marketing source by these folks.
List could easily go on by i feel this is a decent start... should i continue?
Bottom line is ****ing the system and ****ing the community...
Vendors who compete for same knife $
Taxman who gets nothing out of these sales which increases everyone elses tax burden in one way or another.
Ripple effect of pricing on other knives. This effect is felt directly by anyone who buys knives.
Maker who sees none of these profits.
KKF which doesn't get these sellers as vendors but is used as free marketing source by these folks.
List could easily go on by i feel this is a decent start... should i continue?
Bottom line is ****ing the system and ****ing the community...
dwalker
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Some thoughts: like just about anything in life, too much or too little of something can be a bad thing. Balance is tricky. Every action also creates a reaction. The internet has given us this great forum. On KKF there are many good people sharing knowledge, knives, and experiences. There are also trolls, flippers, and other users of said internet and thus this forum. As in life, we should all use good judgement when reacting to things, assuming things, making blanket statements, or calling things out. I respect others opinions on things and know that many differ from my own. The kind moderators who help run this site cannot and should not be responsible for baby sitting the folks around the world using this site. I try and utilize good judgement, make choices for myself and not others, and let the good BE and the occasional bad just BE. They we can all choose what to enjoy and what to pass over and rather than try and control too tightly, we might find enjoyment in just letting go.
HRC_64
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Do you know how many "high IQ" people are captured in that mt everst traffic jam (above 8,000 meters)?
....Bankers, doctors, laywers, industrialists, tech executive...loads of them...
DitmasPork
Senior Member
Vendors who compete for same knife $:
Yeah, sucks, competition is fierce in all businesses because of the internet. That's just a fact of life.
Taxman who gets nothing out of these sales which increases everyone elses tax burden in one way or another.:
Knives selling for more than purchase price, or as BNIB is taxable and should be reported to the IRS by the seller—same as if one were selling antiques, artworks for profit on any online platform.
Ripple effect of pricing on other knives. This effect is felt directly by anyone who buys knives.:
IMO. The "ripple effect" is a very positive thing! It enables knife makers (and vendors) to charge enough to make a living from knife making. I remember when I thought $200 was crazy money for a chef's knife.
The "ripple effect" has also created much buzz, bringing well deserved recognition to knife makers. Murray Carter, Bob Kramer, et al have also created a "ripple effect," setting the bar, etc. Though BST is among my fave sites to visit, there're many other places where fine J-knives are sold on the secondary market—KKF BST is a reflection of the current knife market.
There are still good knives galore available for under-$250.
Maker who sees none of these profits.:
Makers shouldn't see any of the profits from secondary market knife sales—not how it works. Should a knife maker reimburse a buyer if it greatly depreciates in value? No.
If a makers knife quadruples in value on an auction, great news for anyone that owns a knife by that maker.
KKF which doesn't get these sellers as vendors but is used as free marketing source by these folks.:
Yes. BST is a marketplace, purpose it to offer individuals a selling platform—vendors already have a platform to sell, via internet or brick and mortar space. Why I feel vendors shouldn't be allowed on BST, even to comment, conflict of interest IMO.
List could easily go on by i feel this is a decent start... should i continue?:
Bottom line is ****ing the system and ****ing the community...:
I do agree with @Barmoley that "No one is being hurt by this, maybe annoying to some, but no one is being duped or hurt." BST is quite a diverse place, which is part of its beauty—everything from cheap workingman's knives to $2k unicorns. BST is the "community"—all sellers are members of the KKF community.
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Ultimately it really boils down to what behaviors, etc. attract, or drive away, paying members and vendors. Since the site owners need the site to generate enough revenue to cover their costs, salaries/ benefits, etc., they likely pay pretty close attention to the vendor and membership numbers. If certain behaviors drive away ling-paying members or vendors, it will be in their best interests to make changes. If certain behaviors increase the paid membership, or bring in more paying vendors, than they will support/ encourage those behaviors. We all have personal preferences and points of view here, and it is great that so many have voiced them, but the need for action would likely only occur if there was a drop in the site's revenue. That is the reality of it (and I am fine with that).
I have my own notion of what a flipper is, and I avoid that type of person. There will always be another knife to buy, and I don't need to deal with people who operate in a manner where I feel they don't give a crap about anyone and would take advantage of their own mother. Going forward I am going to utilize the 'ignore' feature so I do not see posts from these people.
Now I just need to find a feature that will alert me every time Panda, 'Doom and a few others post, so I do not miss their philosophical musings. Those guys always provide interesting perspectives on topics under debate, and they do not mince words. Hell, I'm happy to see the posts by Chuckles on this thread -- he is another no-BS person.
I have my own notion of what a flipper is, and I avoid that type of person. There will always be another knife to buy, and I don't need to deal with people who operate in a manner where I feel they don't give a crap about anyone and would take advantage of their own mother. Going forward I am going to utilize the 'ignore' feature so I do not see posts from these people.
Now I just need to find a feature that will alert me every time Panda, 'Doom and a few others post, so I do not miss their philosophical musings. Those guys always provide interesting perspectives on topics under debate, and they do not mince words. Hell, I'm happy to see the posts by Chuckles on this thread -- he is another no-BS person.
chinacats
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Do you know how many "high IQ" people are captured in that mt everst traffic jam (above 8,000 meters)?
....Bankers, doctors, laywers, industrialists, tech executive...loads of them...
Just not many mountaineers... and IQ aside these folks certainly have an apparent lack of common sense. You wanna do something special go climb K2 you can realize achievement and solitude...and likely quite a few less dead bodies to negotiate.
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chinacats
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Very fine point, i need to start using that feature myself...and big plus one on Panda and Doom's contributions...often highlights in my daily internet dose.
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HRC_64
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I'm kind of puzzled peopel can't see this part that is obvious.
Just one example: No comments in BST posts.
I highlighted this earlier...not because I think the mods will or can implement it. I'm quite aware of all this historical issues and way this can be gamed abused and otherwise make a mess of the seller's BST listing.
The reason I raised it, is that this is a quick way to point out that BST is in no way a free/fair or efficient market.
That's not throwing shade at the admins or BST, it was simply an effective counter-argument
to those who want to dress up all the crappy BST behaviour as "muh free market" ("...live with it bro")
Which brings me to my second major point, which is that whenever you see people dressing uo
shady behaviour in "morality" (LOL) you should duck and expect you're about to get sucker-punched.
And that's just what we see next...when people lose the "muh free market" is morality,
they immeditately start trash-talking ("doode you're a loser...you're poor...etc)...
This jus shows us the true colors of people who want to do shady /harmful behaviour...
the morality play about "live free or die" (but please don't call me mean names)...
OMG you cannot possibly call me a FLIPPER...think of muh children....youre so mean...etc
This kind of head-twisting hypocrisy is the sign someting is truly wrong.
What the heck is so DANGEROUS to partitioning the BST forum into a "Above retail" (insert euphasmism here) and "Normal BST" sections?
This is pretty easy and doesn't need alot of moderation.
Sunlight is the best disinfectant, and this would add alot of transparency.
Just one example: No comments in BST posts.
I highlighted this earlier...not because I think the mods will or can implement it. I'm quite aware of all this historical issues and way this can be gamed abused and otherwise make a mess of the seller's BST listing.
The reason I raised it, is that this is a quick way to point out that BST is in no way a free/fair or efficient market.
That's not throwing shade at the admins or BST, it was simply an effective counter-argument
to those who want to dress up all the crappy BST behaviour as "muh free market" ("...live with it bro")
Which brings me to my second major point, which is that whenever you see people dressing uo
shady behaviour in "morality" (LOL) you should duck and expect you're about to get sucker-punched.
And that's just what we see next...when people lose the "muh free market" is morality,
they immeditately start trash-talking ("doode you're a loser...you're poor...etc)...
This jus shows us the true colors of people who want to do shady /harmful behaviour...
the morality play about "live free or die" (but please don't call me mean names)...
OMG you cannot possibly call me a FLIPPER...think of muh children....youre so mean...etc
This kind of head-twisting hypocrisy is the sign someting is truly wrong.
What the heck is so DANGEROUS to partitioning the BST forum into a "Above retail" (insert euphasmism here) and "Normal BST" sections?
This is pretty easy and doesn't need alot of moderation.
Sunlight is the best disinfectant, and this would add alot of transparency.
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You are absolutely right that BST is not a true free market example. None of the regulated markets are by the very definition. This does not preclude us from treating and discussing them as such. As far as name calling and all that, you've done a fair share of that too, so let's just drop that since none of it should've been done from anyone.
My argument is that the problem that bugs you, even though exists is not a large enough problem to do anything about. The cost benefit analysis just doesn't work in favor of changing anything. The logical jump from a few flippers to moral decline of this community and society as a whole is also a bit of a stretch. Most transactions on BST are fine.
Now, the two potential solutions to the flipper problem are deficient.
1. Allowing negative comments in sale threads.
Just happened to my thread, a well meaning, but misguided member expressed his opinion about my knives and in the process questioned one of the very knowledgeable and experienced members. I don't mean misguided as an insult, but as most of us know even though a choil shot is liked and tells you something about the grind, it tells you very little about how the knife cuts. Moreover, without knowing the thickness of the blade no judgement can be made at all. Now, newer members don't know this, so a disservice was done to both seller and buyers.
2. Splitting forum into normal and above retail.
Sounds interesting until you think about it. Retail is meaningless for knives that are not sold in retail. Old prices are useless. So this suggestion is impossible to implement.
The flipper problem is caused by buyers not sellers in this particular case. You can't as a seller increase prices on a major scale, just too many alternatives.
HRC_64
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1) As stated earlier, this just highlight BST needs rules (generally)
2) 95% of the problem is trading in a small bunch of brands/names/pricepoints. easy to define, measure, implement. There isn't need for "policing the threads", if all shig/kato, etc are already in the sub-forum...
If you put all the "endangered species" into a single forum (call it what you will), you can regulate the "big game hunters" a bit more closely. This doesn't even mean changing BST rules, simply carving out an area for people to do these trades....Kind of like Euros allowing a "red-light district" but saying no whores in Church.
You can take this kind of step whilst keeping diversity of the site intact.
1. BST has rules, not all follow these rules, but the rules are there and work well most of the time. There is no need for more rules.
2. There is cost associated with this, who will pay it and for what benefit? The endangered species list is not static. Someone has to put more items on it or remove names from it. Price point doesn’t work as there are legitimately expensive knives that are not flips. Someone needs to police regular BST, to make sure no endangered species are on it. It is expensive and not needed.
On or about April 1st I proposed a special, subscription only forum for buying and selling Shigs and Katos as well as others to be named. Initial membership would be 1K to enable international background checks. The subscription would drop to $500/yr for subsequent years. Posts would cost $20/each.
Only got 3 takers.
Only got 3 takers.
parbaked
Senior Member
If KKF really wants to discourage flipping knives, the powers that be can make it a rule in the BST Guidelines.
Then calling out flippers will be acceptable under the "no negative comments" guidelines just like calling out other infractions such asking for PayPal fees or removing selling price.
Other sites have rules like this on their BST forums:
Commercial sales and "Flipping"
The classifieds are for personal, non-commercial non-profit sales.
Buying and selling items on the forums for the express purpose of making a profit is not allowed. Buying an item to immediately resell at a profit is known as "flipping." People found to be using the forums or private messaging system for this purpose may have their account banned.
However, items purchased some months or years prior to the sale for private use, the market value for which has changed, can be sold at their current market value. We ask that you please contact a moderator before posting these listings to make sure everything is in order.
Items sold in discount sales, such as Amazon specials, cannot be sold at market value immediately afterwards, as this is definitely flipping.
Then calling out flippers will be acceptable under the "no negative comments" guidelines just like calling out other infractions such asking for PayPal fees or removing selling price.
Other sites have rules like this on their BST forums:
Commercial sales and "Flipping"
The classifieds are for personal, non-commercial non-profit sales.
Buying and selling items on the forums for the express purpose of making a profit is not allowed. Buying an item to immediately resell at a profit is known as "flipping." People found to be using the forums or private messaging system for this purpose may have their account banned.
However, items purchased some months or years prior to the sale for private use, the market value for which has changed, can be sold at their current market value. We ask that you please contact a moderator before posting these listings to make sure everything is in order.
Items sold in discount sales, such as Amazon specials, cannot be sold at market value immediately afterwards, as this is definitely flipping.
