RockyBasel
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Eloquently stated and spot on!
Konosuke Kaiju
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Only because of the current popularity status it holds. These were pretty darn cheap before all the hype, if I recall correctly.
Are the 240's hitting the $900 mark these days? That's a lot of cheddar for a knife that still needs lots of work in order to cut decent
Knivperson
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Corradobrit1
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After all these years I still can't fathom why there is such a huge up-charge going from 210 to 240. The value buyer will look at TF Nashiji/Mab/Denka 210's (which seem to be be oversized these days anyway) or a Morihei Hisamoto (Mab) 240, esp with the Fine Finish.
I mean the 240 upcharge is probably because you can. Candidly, I don't overly blame them, they produce in Tokyo, so I don't think land/ cost of living is cheap and any Japanese hand made knife takes some babying. Why have they gone up? Honestly, I'm shocked the Kaiju is so cheap based on how hard it seems to make. I like my Nashiji (yes I've probably put in just as much to mod it as I did to buy it at this point), but I think right now for what they are they'd be hitting their limit for me. That said, I think if we're really honest and look at the kind of work a lot of Japanese knife makers do, versus the output they have, a lot of us would ask for more money too.
You cannot say that... they all cut differently
(btw... I have two Denkas... love mine... but both selected in Tokyo out of a huge load of blades...)
You cannot say that... they all cut differently
(btw... I have two Denkas... love mine... but both selected in Tokyo out of a huge load of blades...)
They all cut differently as in you have no idea if they cut well or not because the majority don't? Sorry, I'm not trying to sound argumentative or offensive.
Just that about all I have seen or heard on the TF knives (all variants) have been they either must be "hand selected", or require a lot of work/modifications in order to get them to the level of performance that is expected and paid for. I don't get the appeal in this. ESPECIALLY given the crazy pricing. I have seen pics of some modified TF gyutos, wearing nice new Wooden handles instead of the cheap paka wood, nice new polish post steel removal/thinning, that look pretty attractive. Not $1k attractive. But that, and all the above stated, is just my opinion.
In my opinion, OOTB the Kaiju (along with all Fujiyama gyutos) packs way more performance than any TF. And that would go for F&F as well. Again just my experience and opinion.
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jacko9
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I'am just a home cook and not at all an expert on knives and sharpening, etc but I second your opinion given my two T-F's and three Konosuke Fujiyama's. I'm sure that a lot of folks can judge by eye or feel how to select a good or great knife but, I just order and get what they send me and for my knives the cutting ability, fit and finish and price the Fuji's are a clear winner.
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Amen, brother!!! Well said!!!
simar
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offended Totally agree on the "they have to be hand selected". Everything else is a gamble. All I said was that the variation is really high. But if you select a nice one, it outperforms more or less any other (not only japanese, expensive US and EU custom makers as well...) knife from every important maker I tried which have been a lot.. Only met a hand full of knives over the years, that can keep up with the performance of my 2 denkas (Kono Fujiyamas included, which I by the way really like!). Which are by the way totally different (one more a big workhorse, one a delicate laser... speaks for itself regarding the variation...)
F&F is bad, yes. Pricing in the context of the quality issues is bad, yes. I would never recommend one to a friend (and never order one online). But performancewise, they do have quite a lot of potential like my two denkas show me regarding ease of cutting and edge retention.
But you're missing the point. I wasn't about to say "you cannot say that because all TF are great", I said "you cannot say that because they are all different"... which is a bad thing, yes....
Iggy
simar
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Some how this is sounding analogous to the broken clock, if you hand pick your TF you may get something that is capable but the F&F leaves a lot to be desired for what you pay for them.
Corradobrit1
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The 240 has never been 'cheap'. Even several years ago the Denka 240 was around $650 direct.
jacko9
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I am helping one of the gym instructors buy a first quality knife as she settles into family life and she likes to cook a lot. I offered to loan her a T-F and a Watanabe Stainless clad Gyuto to help her and her husband decide what to buy. I sent her the carrot video and it was readily apparent to her what knife cuts more cleanly. Unfortunately those two knives might be out of their budget with a new baby but, it lets her see what good knives can do.
jacko9
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T-F has really raised his prices a lot since I purchased my Gyuto just about doubled in cost in I think 5 years. He is offering the Ebony handle again so I was able to make a direct comparison.
If FnF is important to you, there's probably no way to justify a TF. At home, where I keep my knives immaculate, where I can enjoy looking at them, enjoy using them, I absolutely get it. But if you want to get work done, a rounded coil does nothing for the massive callus on my hand from using a knife all day. Any sort of polishing work gets nuked within a week. All the little QoL touches and niceties amount to very little. I have plenty of expensive, beautiful knives, but when I show up to work I bring my 210 and 240 denka. The premium paid for raw performance is worth it for me.
And have a lot difference between kono fm blue and hitohira Tanaka blue 1 kasumi?
@ragz All my knives get used at work. There were 2 that, up until recently, were not used. A JKI Kagekiyo B1, which was so dang sexy I just left it at home to admire. It’s since sold now. The other was my newer FM, but it’s now used. It’s really hard for me not to use a knife. If it’s not getting used it doesn't stick around too long. But fancy or not, they’re built to be used. Functional art. If I’m not bringing them to work for use, I Feel guilty. A sense of betrayal to the time and effort that went into building the knife.
As for F&F, like rounded spine and choil, these touches go a long way for me. Gone are the days of having a sh*@ty rough choil chewing away at my fingers. As are the days of flat sharp spines. Life is too short and too sweet to suffer the small things like these. It only takes minutes to ease the choil and spine. Minutes vs the amount of time using the knife, it’s more than well worth it.
Of the Thirty plus years in the kitchen, 20 plus were using crap knives with crap f&f. My callouses were growing their own individual personalities, and were the equivalent to forgotten coworkers, girlfriends and one night stands. Now they, like the ex’s, are long gone. Part of the reason for my almost baby smooth hands (by comparison) I attribute to better f&f, another to better skill level. But most likely the largest reason is that I doubt I’m spending as much time chopping and prepping as you are these days. And I kind of miss it.
As for polishing, yeah, nuked within a weak, if not a day, for sure. I wish I was better at the polishing thing, but I’m not. It’s a lot of work for me, just to see it get pissed away through use. I still do it though on my Halcyon Knives, because they are just too cool.
But I get why you would take a TF to work. It really couldn’t get much worse than it already is. Kind of kidding there, but kind of not.
As for F&F, like rounded spine and choil, these touches go a long way for me. Gone are the days of having a sh*@ty rough choil chewing away at my fingers. As are the days of flat sharp spines. Life is too short and too sweet to suffer the small things like these. It only takes minutes to ease the choil and spine. Minutes vs the amount of time using the knife, it’s more than well worth it.
Of the Thirty plus years in the kitchen, 20 plus were using crap knives with crap f&f. My callouses were growing their own individual personalities, and were the equivalent to forgotten coworkers, girlfriends and one night stands. Now they, like the ex’s, are long gone. Part of the reason for my almost baby smooth hands (by comparison) I attribute to better f&f, another to better skill level. But most likely the largest reason is that I doubt I’m spending as much time chopping and prepping as you are these days. And I kind of miss it.
As for polishing, yeah, nuked within a weak, if not a day, for sure. I wish I was better at the polishing thing, but I’m not. It’s a lot of work for me, just to see it get pissed away through use. I still do it though on my Halcyon Knives, because they are just too cool.
But I get why you would take a TF to work. It really couldn’t get much worse than it already is. Kind of kidding there, but kind of not.
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No, you’re not!!!
Knivperson
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Truth!!!
Since every thread sooner or later turns into TF thread, bashing or otherwise, I'd like to put my 2 cents worth. I've complained about TFs plenty myself and in general agree that prices are high given fit and finish, questionable QC and all the usual complaints. The jump from 210 to 240 in price is ridiculous, etc, etc. Since then I've tried a few good ones and they are really good. I liked the one I had so much that I paid for a nice handle for it, not because original one was bad, but just because I decided to keep it and figured why not see what can be done with a western handle. The original handle wasn't pretty and had some usual filled gaps between it and metal bolster, but functionally it was perfectly fine. In any case, I understand the sentiment of those that say that a knife at this price should be more consistent and better finished, but having used a few good ones I also understand the fans.
Prices are tricky, I don't get pricing on many knives, but if they sell then someone is paying these prices. Same with TF. The performance is there, is it worth trying to get a good one or paying a lot for a project is hard to say, but at least we always have TF to discuss in every thread, that alone has to be worth something.
Prices are tricky, I don't get pricing on many knives, but if they sell then someone is paying these prices. Same with TF. The performance is there, is it worth trying to get a good one or paying a lot for a project is hard to say, but at least we always have TF to discuss in every thread, that alone has to be worth something.
I'd love to try a "good one", for sure. Always open minded. If someone wants to throw one my way, I'd give it a fair shake.
And on that note, if anybody wants to send me a 240 Kaiju so I can compare contrast against its equivalent in FM form, I'd be super pumped to try it.
And on that note, if anybody wants to send me a 240 Kaiju so I can compare contrast against its equivalent in FM form, I'd be super pumped to try it.
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Would you show us the one you had rehandled?
Haha, yes there definately is some truth in that. I understand your point though. I'm not yet anywhere near thirty years in a kitchen. I'm still a bit more tolerant of beating myself up a bit. Been getting better at it though for the sake of my overall health-- I do want to be cooking in 15 years after all.
Sure, apologies for the derail. Two caveats, the knife is not in the original state anymore, choil, spine have been eased. It takes little time, but you could argue that knife in this price range should come with these eased already. 2. I tried to show the blade road, but not easy. I can't see or feel major issues, there could be some minor ones, but I can't detect them. I bet my other knives have them too, I've just never paid attention enough on other knives, but this being TF, I looked more closely than usual. No issues while cutting. Of course, the handle and everything around it have been modified.
jacko9
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Great looking knife and that handle is awesome.
all threads really do devolve into TF banter, lol unreal
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FIFY
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carcinisation, except for TF?
