Kramer Knife Auction
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Some observations:
We live in a capitalist economy whose effects are somewhat attenuated by a cultural attachment to individual creativity. Craftspeople are peripheral to the dominant forces that drive our nation's--and our world's--political economy. Like people engaged in many professions, this causes them to earn less than their cultural contribution would justify, EXCEPT when their product serves as an icon of social attainment that people central to the American political economy--i.e., those who possess capital, invest it, regulate it, or utilize it--value. This is my shorthanded way of contextualizing the nature of supply and demand as it relates to knifemaking and other aesthetic crafts, and I believe it explains Bob Kramer's position.
Such an explanation fails to help us answer a few central questions that concern personal morality more than political economy. Does Bob Kramer deserve his success? Yes, by all that I have read and by every measure that I can apply. He is devoted to his craft, and paid an opportunity cost to enter it when it was not nearly the burgeoning market that it is now.
Do Bob's knives merit ten times the price of Devin Thomas's, Bill Burke's, or a handful of other well-known makers? Not by aesthetic or functional measures, and I believe (without having ever spoken to him) that Bob would be the first to acknowledge this. Kitchen knives are not automobiles; outside of the core community of devotees, they are not a product that can support multiple valences of brand differentiation. Said differently, a bank manager might choose to drive a Mercedes, and Audi, a BMW, or even a Toyota Prius because each carries connotations that collectively make a statement about who he is. Most people in the society he inhabits will read those connotations similarly to him, and so the relationship between brand identity and personal identity holds value. Outside of knife collectors and professional cooks (the vast majority of whom are not buying custom knives at all), the difference between a Thomas or a Burke carries no distinction. In certain spheres of society, though, a Kramer knife does carry brand identity; we can thank Cook's Illustrated, the New Yorker, and the CBS Morning News for this.
Is this good for knifemakers? Yes and no. I think Bob's success will redound to some benefit for other skilled knife craftsmen, but the market likely cannot support a Bob Kramer alternative among non-knife people.
Is this good for knife purchasers? Yes and no. If you want a Kramer to own and to use, this sucks, because almost all of us are now price and waitlisted out of the market. If you want a fantastic knife to own and to use, it's not entirely a bad thing, because there are now at least a dozen makers for whom producing kitchen knives is a viable way to make a living.
Just my .02. Draw your own conclusions.
We live in a capitalist economy whose effects are somewhat attenuated by a cultural attachment to individual creativity. Craftspeople are peripheral to the dominant forces that drive our nation's--and our world's--political economy. Like people engaged in many professions, this causes them to earn less than their cultural contribution would justify, EXCEPT when their product serves as an icon of social attainment that people central to the American political economy--i.e., those who possess capital, invest it, regulate it, or utilize it--value. This is my shorthanded way of contextualizing the nature of supply and demand as it relates to knifemaking and other aesthetic crafts, and I believe it explains Bob Kramer's position.
Such an explanation fails to help us answer a few central questions that concern personal morality more than political economy. Does Bob Kramer deserve his success? Yes, by all that I have read and by every measure that I can apply. He is devoted to his craft, and paid an opportunity cost to enter it when it was not nearly the burgeoning market that it is now.
Do Bob's knives merit ten times the price of Devin Thomas's, Bill Burke's, or a handful of other well-known makers? Not by aesthetic or functional measures, and I believe (without having ever spoken to him) that Bob would be the first to acknowledge this. Kitchen knives are not automobiles; outside of the core community of devotees, they are not a product that can support multiple valences of brand differentiation. Said differently, a bank manager might choose to drive a Mercedes, and Audi, a BMW, or even a Toyota Prius because each carries connotations that collectively make a statement about who he is. Most people in the society he inhabits will read those connotations similarly to him, and so the relationship between brand identity and personal identity holds value. Outside of knife collectors and professional cooks (the vast majority of whom are not buying custom knives at all), the difference between a Thomas or a Burke carries no distinction. In certain spheres of society, though, a Kramer knife does carry brand identity; we can thank Cook's Illustrated, the New Yorker, and the CBS Morning News for this.
Is this good for knifemakers? Yes and no. I think Bob's success will redound to some benefit for other skilled knife craftsmen, but the market likely cannot support a Bob Kramer alternative among non-knife people.
Is this good for knife purchasers? Yes and no. If you want a Kramer to own and to use, this sucks, because almost all of us are now price and waitlisted out of the market. If you want a fantastic knife to own and to use, it's not entirely a bad thing, because there are now at least a dozen makers for whom producing kitchen knives is a viable way to make a living.
Just my .02. Draw your own conclusions.
I'm certainly a newbie here, but one thing I've certainly learned firsthand is the high expectations once has when spending a larger amount of money. For regular people like us that don't have disposable incomes in the multi-thousand to multi-million dollar range, a Kramer knife is something we will never own.
But, the buying process is not simple, especially for something purportedly crafted to one's specific standards. Going through this process, as Salty references, is sometimes what's most disappointing about an expensive purchase.
I'm just going to leave it at that because I've certainly had some buyer's remorse about purchases, including knives. Luckily, there are places to sell your wares, and sometimes, make a profit on them.
But, the buying process is not simple, especially for something purportedly crafted to one's specific standards. Going through this process, as Salty references, is sometimes what's most disappointing about an expensive purchase.
I'm just going to leave it at that because I've certainly had some buyer's remorse about purchases, including knives. Luckily, there are places to sell your wares, and sometimes, make a profit on them.
Most of the time when craftsmen create items they set a price to make a profit and keep their stock sold (small inventory).
All else is a juggling act, price up or down, quality and materials up or down, etc. to find a profitable nich, or make it a non profitable hobby and enjoy the work, or go out of business.
It seems that Bob Kramer has reached a level where the market place is setting the price and going far above his probable cost.
From what I read he is not being accused of liying, cheating or stealing.
The market place is simply adding value to his product on it's own.
We should all be so fortunate.
I hope to own some custom knives, I don't like to see prices go through the roof either but I can't fault someone for accepting what customers are willing to pay.
There, I'm done, Marko, you're right, other than being curious about how high Bob's knives will go this is a boring subject.
Glen
All else is a juggling act, price up or down, quality and materials up or down, etc. to find a profitable nich, or make it a non profitable hobby and enjoy the work, or go out of business.
It seems that Bob Kramer has reached a level where the market place is setting the price and going far above his probable cost.
From what I read he is not being accused of liying, cheating or stealing.
The market place is simply adding value to his product on it's own.
We should all be so fortunate.
I hope to own some custom knives, I don't like to see prices go through the roof either but I can't fault someone for accepting what customers are willing to pay.
There, I'm done, Marko, you're right, other than being curious about how high Bob's knives will go this is a boring subject.
Glen
It must be hard as a craftsman to produce a product for someone and then see them sell it on eBay for 2-3xs what they just paid you. At some point it would be logical to throw one on an auction yourself and reap the higher price. I'm not speaking up for or against Bob Kramer, but one could argue he is looking out for his core fans by still selling them knives for $3-4k instead of the $10k+ value the market is currently indicating.
I agree with the general concensus that even $3-4k is very high for a kitchen knife, but I also agree it is a form of art and the value is partially determined by the status the public has assigned to the artist. I will admit to paying several thousand dollars for paintings a few years back; it was a lot of money, and for things that perform no real hands-on function. Yet the artwork provides a service by adding beauty to the house and an ocassional escape for my mind. Is it possible a $200 painting would serve the function just as well? Sure, and we've got a bunch of those as well. And some of them might perform their duties even better then the expensive pieces. But as expensive as the paintings we bought seemed to me, they were cheap by the standards of many other people. And I could draw other comparisons to stereo equipment, wine and other goods.
People spend a lot more $ buying brand new cars then the $3-4k you could pay for a Kramer if you land a spot on his list. And in the current climate you can sell the Kramer next year for a gain (and a substantial one at that), versus losing 25% of the car's value. Maybe that will change if the bubble ever bursts, but given the relatively small output of his operation that may not happen anytime in the next few years, and the resulting prices will still likely be considered high.
Due to the cost, I doubt I will ever own a Kramer knife. But I would not say no if one were offered to me at a cost similar to a DT knife, as by all accounts the Kramers are fantastic knives to use. And if I had the chance to buy one for $3-4k, and then turn around and sell if for >$10k, I would have a very difficult decision.
I agree with the general concensus that even $3-4k is very high for a kitchen knife, but I also agree it is a form of art and the value is partially determined by the status the public has assigned to the artist. I will admit to paying several thousand dollars for paintings a few years back; it was a lot of money, and for things that perform no real hands-on function. Yet the artwork provides a service by adding beauty to the house and an ocassional escape for my mind. Is it possible a $200 painting would serve the function just as well? Sure, and we've got a bunch of those as well. And some of them might perform their duties even better then the expensive pieces. But as expensive as the paintings we bought seemed to me, they were cheap by the standards of many other people. And I could draw other comparisons to stereo equipment, wine and other goods.
People spend a lot more $ buying brand new cars then the $3-4k you could pay for a Kramer if you land a spot on his list. And in the current climate you can sell the Kramer next year for a gain (and a substantial one at that), versus losing 25% of the car's value. Maybe that will change if the bubble ever bursts, but given the relatively small output of his operation that may not happen anytime in the next few years, and the resulting prices will still likely be considered high.
Due to the cost, I doubt I will ever own a Kramer knife. But I would not say no if one were offered to me at a cost similar to a DT knife, as by all accounts the Kramers are fantastic knives to use. And if I had the chance to buy one for $3-4k, and then turn around and sell if for >$10k, I would have a very difficult decision.
Marko Tsourkan
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As much as I want it, this thread is hard to ignore. I will add one more thing.
I never understood, frankly, why people covet a Kramer or other expensive custom knife if their earnings don't justify it. As far as a cutting ability is concerned, there are many knives that would perform on par or outperform Kramer. So, it makes me wonder if you are not an investor or a speculator and you don't make six-seven digits, why do you covet a Kramer? Will it make you a better cook? No. Will it earn you some compliment and envy on a knife forum? Probably. Will you enjoy knowing that a great craftsman made your knife? Yes. Are there any other reasons?
At the end of the day, it is just a knife, a tool, and most people would think you are out of your mind to spend this money on a tool. But people spend stupid money on worse things than knives, so who cares? It's not that if they don't buy a Kramer they turn around a give money to a good cause. Bob, at least in his Ebay auctions, was donating some of the proceeds.
He has worked hard and promoted himself right and shown a good business sense and deservingly enjoys a success. And many custom makers, as I pointed out in my earlier posts, have ridden the wave of the publicity that Bob helped to create about kitchen knives. Even on this forum, how many of you guys were making kitchen knives two years ago? Not many, but now you are, because you see an opportunity. So enjoy the free publicity and popularity and be grateful.
As far as Bob's business ethics or practices are concerned, I would take Kramer side over (... hmm should I say it?), Carter, any time.
M
I never understood, frankly, why people covet a Kramer or other expensive custom knife if their earnings don't justify it. As far as a cutting ability is concerned, there are many knives that would perform on par or outperform Kramer. So, it makes me wonder if you are not an investor or a speculator and you don't make six-seven digits, why do you covet a Kramer? Will it make you a better cook? No. Will it earn you some compliment and envy on a knife forum? Probably. Will you enjoy knowing that a great craftsman made your knife? Yes. Are there any other reasons?
At the end of the day, it is just a knife, a tool, and most people would think you are out of your mind to spend this money on a tool. But people spend stupid money on worse things than knives, so who cares? It's not that if they don't buy a Kramer they turn around a give money to a good cause. Bob, at least in his Ebay auctions, was donating some of the proceeds.
He has worked hard and promoted himself right and shown a good business sense and deservingly enjoys a success. And many custom makers, as I pointed out in my earlier posts, have ridden the wave of the publicity that Bob helped to create about kitchen knives. Even on this forum, how many of you guys were making kitchen knives two years ago? Not many, but now you are, because you see an opportunity. So enjoy the free publicity and popularity and be grateful.
As far as Bob's business ethics or practices are concerned, I would take Kramer side over (... hmm should I say it?), Carter, any time.
M
NO ChoP!
Old Head
Mr. Ealy,
Your name is a hot topic within the forums as of late; I am sure you will receive your much needed "bump", as your blades will become a hot commodity. Good luck!
I enjoyed Salty's review, and the knife looked awesome!
Your name is a hot topic within the forums as of late; I am sure you will receive your much needed "bump", as your blades will become a hot commodity. Good luck!
I enjoyed Salty's review, and the knife looked awesome!
Eamon Burke
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It's not a practical purchase, Marko. It's not for pro cooks to use and kick some ass on the line with--and even upscale restaurants have thieves with eyes for fancy blades.
Is it a good thing that a great maker(ABS Mastersmith, after all) is getting attention and making great money? Yep. He said he puts out 200 knives a year--at this price, that's a quarter of a million for his business, not including his endorsements.
Is Bob Kramer a better maker than other makers? Is this knife better than others? That's JUST what we should be talking about around here!
Does Bob Kramer *deserve* this money, empirically or in comparison to other makers we know and love? Who cares? If Bill Burke wants to charge $12,000 for a knife, he certainly can. People will pay it, too. America may not be the Land of the Free and Home of the Brave anymore, but let's not make mountains out of molehills--it's still a free market, and people can sell and buy whatever they want for however much money they want.
I say its good news all around.
Is it a good thing that a great maker(ABS Mastersmith, after all) is getting attention and making great money? Yep. He said he puts out 200 knives a year--at this price, that's a quarter of a million for his business, not including his endorsements.
Is Bob Kramer a better maker than other makers? Is this knife better than others? That's JUST what we should be talking about around here!
Does Bob Kramer *deserve* this money, empirically or in comparison to other makers we know and love? Who cares? If Bill Burke wants to charge $12,000 for a knife, he certainly can. People will pay it, too. America may not be the Land of the Free and Home of the Brave anymore, but let's not make mountains out of molehills--it's still a free market, and people can sell and buy whatever they want for however much money they want.
I say its good news all around.
From my perspective I'm simply fascinated on how this whole thing has taken off for Bob. It's really something extremely unique in the world that he works in, exceptional really. I'm OK with Bob getting what he can for his work because one day he won't be able to do it (we all get old) and hopefully this can carry him through those golden years, the rest of the world's knifemakers surely won't be that lucky.
sudsy9977
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price is all in the eye of the beholder.....i owned a knife by michael rader once.....used it ...beat the hell out of it....i paid over his asking price from a dealer at the time(which i didn't know-thought it was priced the same).....had it refinished.....and then sold it for almnost double the marked up price.....crazy?.....hell yeah.....but i'd do it again.....i have bought a nife that butch made someone was selling on another forum.....sent it to him to fix up and sold it on a second forum for even more.......price is all in the eye of the beholder.....ryan
Delbert Ealy
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Thanks,
I am one of those recent to the world of kitchen knives and I am happy to join it.
Eamon Burke
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I really think that it has something to do with Todd Oppenheimer. Not only did he do a very thorough article, and published it in the WSJ, but it was subsequently disseminated through every scholarly and professional channel--when I was looking for sources for a speech course I was taking that wasn't just BS ad copy from Henckels or absurd advice from some store clerk, "Sharper" By Todd Oppenheimer was the only thing I found. And I have seen it quoted countless times since. Good journalist, Bob scored bigtime doing that interview.
Paul Reed Smith was just a guy making good quality guitars until he managed to give one to Carlos Santana. Now a PRS runs 3-6 grand.
MikeZ
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Ever since I read this last night I have not gotten it out of my head... To me it says a lot when a guy like salty says the knife 'was truly a masterpiece, possibly the best knife i ever owned"... For me not that I would ever buy it but it would be about owning one of the best knifes in the world. Maybe thats why somebody wants to own a Kramer, even if there are knives that are so almost close to on par, if his really are that good theres a reason.
Salty dog
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To be honest one of Bob Kramer's biggest contributions to the knife community it raising the awareness among knifemakers about kitchen knives. I don't think it's accidental that knifemakers are starting to look at kitchen knives as a viable way of expressing themselves and making money. He also has placed the bar pretty high. So in the grand scheme of things he's played a very important roll in all our futures.
Cadillac J
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I think Kramer makes very cool-looking knives, but they just aren't for me--even if I could afford one. I just don't like the profile at all.
Would be nice if some of the other makers could get that kind of coin for their hard work someday, but then they would be out of reach for the majority of the community that really appreciates them...it seems like a win-lose situation if looking at it this way.
Would be nice if some of the other makers could get that kind of coin for their hard work someday, but then they would be out of reach for the majority of the community that really appreciates them...it seems like a win-lose situation if looking at it this way.
First real post here. As someone with two Kramers, a damascus and straight steel, I feel I have some perspective to add. First, I find his knives very comfortable, excellent performers, and gorgeous to look at. I also get a kick out of telling my non-knife friends how much I paid for them (actually, a huge bargain at current prices...try to convince them of that is another topic). Second, I use my Pierre Rodriguez, Carter(s), Harner, Nenox, and Watanabe just as much. Third, I was lucky to get on his list before he truly started blowing up. I still waited 3 years, to which I refuse to complain about. I've waited just as long for other makers that are not nearly as famous. Fourth, at current prices and wait, I would never buy them again. Bob raised the bar and current makers are following suit. Good for them! There are true masterpieces made by non-Bob's that I certainly wouldn't call a bargain, but compared to Kramer they are. Fifth, anyone that has ever had contact with Bob Kramer knows what a fascinating man, concerned craftsman, and good human being he is. There isn't a better compliment I can give than the latter. Sixth, if you have a problem with the way Bob does business, you should move to a socialist nation, you would fit right in. Seventh, I am holding on to my Kramers because I really like them; they fit into my food lifestyle and passion. I also made a promise to Bob not to sell. I'm nothing without my word. I've spent money on a lot of crap I can't remember, no longer have, and never really enjoyed when I had it. Can't say that with these.
So in a way, Bob and I are alike. We both had good timing. Him...his business, me...ordering when I did, and having the money on hand.
Hey Marko, you are borrowing one of mine now, what do you think?
So in a way, Bob and I are alike. We both had good timing. Him...his business, me...ordering when I did, and having the money on hand.
Hey Marko, you are borrowing one of mine now, what do you think?
Marko Tsourkan
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It's a very good knife. I like the geometry better than the profile. My personal preference is a flatter profile as I push-cut and almost do no rocking.
Finish on the knife is excellent, the handle, although massive, is a top notch quality. I could not find any faults with this knife, as expected. I only cut two apples with it, but the impression is positive. Height and weight made cutting effortless.
So, I am going to do ai comparison cutting - side-by-side Carter, Kramer and Shigefusa. Will probably cut sweet potato or regular potato. Curious how these knvies will compare.
M
Chef Niloc
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Just wait till you get your hands on one of Bills knives. I hired a swimsuit modle to follow me around holding them for me. Every were we go people look point and say Wow look at the set on that one.:biggrin2:
Salty dog
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I had a different experience. Great knife though. (the second one) And I think it's bull$hit to have to promise not to sell it. What's the purpose in that? Socialist nation? How about freedom of choice.
RRLOVER
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How about a post on your results,that's a nice trio of blade right there.
Marko Tsourkan
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I will post my impressions, but mind you, to do a detailed comparison, you need to sharpen all knives to the same level and do a bit more cutting than just a potato. This will be very superficial test, to judge the geometry.
M
Chef Niloc
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I have all 3 of those knives as well,I would like to throw Heiji and Bill in to that list.
I would say the Burke, Carter, and Kramer all cut alike. Think and Shigefusa cut just as well but different as the blades are thicker, for me I like a thinner blade in a chef knife so for this post I will cut them out now leaving just the US makers.
Carter out of the box has a very sharp but I would say aggressive cut. It dulls quicker then the others and is the only knife out of these makers that I have had a chipping issue with the blade. All the ones I have had have chipped and rather big chips at that. His level of blade finish if fine by me but also at the bottom of the list of these makers. His handles (even pro line) put his level of finish way down on any list of mine. Must note here that Carter knife is more then half the price of the other two US makers listed here. I have had good experiences with my dealings with Mr. Carter and Bad so he falls last on the list in that regard as well. I will say that he stands behind his work 100% and conducts his business in a professional maner, at lest in my dealings with him. I was not happy with the 1st cleaver he made me and he made me a new one and had it to me in less then two weeks he is the only maker I can say that about. Will also add that the problem with the cleaver was in my part by not explaining what I wanted well enough at first.
Bob Kramer is one of the nicest persons I have ever met. He hand delivered the knife to me and we sat down and talked for hours. There was a old post on the other bored that Bob read wrong ( not my post) and thought that I had a complaint with the way he did business, Bob called me that night to talk about it.
I for one love the handle Bob makes, find it very comfortable. It's BIG but the knife is perfectly balanced and light as a feather. The knife cuts amazingly, only way to describe it is "just right" I would note that the knives I have gotten from Butch have kind of the same feel when cutting with them.
Bill Burke as most if you may know makes IMO the best knife I have ever held. It might not be fair that I compare the level of finish with that of Bobs as Bills was custom to me from start to finish. But in all honesty while I love the look of my Burke the most out of every knife I own I will acutely give the final vote to Bob as for level of finish. Bills knife cuts the best and longest out of every knife I have ever owned. One has to try to dull it. I would say that even under heavy home use the knife would never need anything more then a stropping from time to time. As a heavy pro knife it has only hit my stones two times in almost three years. Bills knife cuts "different" then any other knife I have ever used and I will say I like the way it cuts the best also, I have described it as cutting with a sharp piece of glass. I still don't know what gives his knife that quality as both him and Bobs are made of 52100, I also have servile other knives made from 52100 and none of them have that glass like feeling I'm describing.
I would still like to run a Hoss custom in a side by side test with these knives but I have all but given up hope of ever having one as I have been on his list for a long long time now ( longer then Bobs), but hay I may one day get one.
In closing I will say that I think the "great" US makers are one notch above the great Japanese makers, but that's just my option.
Marko Tsourkan
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The three knives I will compare have different geometry and profiles (Kramer has very different profile from the other two). I am not going to do enough cutting to do in depth analysis (that would require sharpening them to the same level and do way more cutting than one potato). It is just to confirm (or dismiss) how each knife should perform as I think it should.
I have Yoshikane gyuto, Heiji is very similarly ground so the performance-wise should be similar (actually, Yoshi I have is thinner). Haven't seen Bill's knife up-close yet, but will be making a saya for one soon.
M
I have Yoshikane gyuto, Heiji is very similarly ground so the performance-wise should be similar (actually, Yoshi I have is thinner). Haven't seen Bill's knife up-close yet, but will be making a saya for one soon.
M
oivind_dahle
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Colin:
Have you got your Bill Burke Gyuto?
You only have a 270 suji right?
Now I just want a Burke more than ever!!!!!
Here you concluded that Kramer got the best knife?
http://www.knifeforums.com/forums/showtopic.php?tid/873616/post/2082912/
And Colin: PLEASE buy a camera! You know the rule
Have you got your Bill Burke Gyuto?
You only have a 270 suji right?
Now I just want a Burke more than ever!!!!!
Here you concluded that Kramer got the best knife?
http://www.knifeforums.com/forums/showtopic.php?tid/873616/post/2082912/
And Colin: PLEASE buy a camera! You know the rule
Cadillac J
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Colin's Burke suji is one of my favorite knives on the forum.
It isn't sexy...but it just looks like a complete badass.
It isn't sexy...but it just looks like a complete badass.
oivind_dahle
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One of my favorite knives as well. However I believe it combines sexy, badass and natural beauty. It his knives is like a mix between Angelina Jolie, Charlize Theron and Megan Fox
As someone who's relatively new to the artisan side of the knife world, I find this discussion utterly fascinating. I'm a huge cyclist, and avid follower of a number of high-end custom framebuilders out there, many of whom see the same sort of discussion that Mr. Kramer's output seems to have -- long waitlists, prices higher than competitors who offer similar bicycles at lower prices or less wait. In the end, people are paying for the mojo/flavor/idea of whomever the artisan is that's making the object in question (be it a knife, a guitar, a bike frame, what have you) rather than paying for purely the functional "worth" of the given thing. I love conceptually that there are certain builders/makers out there that can make a great living by being at the peak of their powers, hype or not... the frenzy can sometimes be distasteful, but there's always going to be favorites in any given hobby.
Chef Niloc
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The 270mm chef knife to match the Suji, I posted pic's you must have been sleeping:cool2:
Chef Niloc
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