Kramer Zwilling 10" Chef's Knive arrived

[JohnnyChance]

This a good example of personal preferences. I would call my Kramer handle heavy rather than blade heavy. I also don't really see anything wrong with the edge geometry for an all round chef knife. To me the balance makes it very easy to use the point for fine tasks just as a handle heavy fighting knife is better for point work. It is certainly wider than the average chef knife but that hasn't caused any problems. I'm just not sure the steel is offering anything special in edge holding abilities for the price. While I'm willing to pay a little more to allow Kramer to get his cut there is a limit to how much I think that star status is worth.

This is pretty dead on. Edge retention isn't great, but it does get very sharp, feels good on the stones. It is wider than most but doesn't feel like a giant (to me). It acts more nimble than it's size indicates. And that is due to the very thin tip, which like Noodle Soup said, makes it very versatile, a great all around chefs knife.

I never viewed handle heavy or blade heavy as a subjective thing. It is either one or the other. You can certainly prefer one or the other, but this knife balances just in front of the bolster. Even when using a hammer grip it isn't blade heavy. What is the balance point on the Hattori FH? Handle heavy knives give much poorer feedback for me, like the tip is floating out in front the blade and I can't be sure of it's location. Being on the blade heavy side also seems to help do some of the work.

 

[Knifefan]

Since it's been mentioned a few times that the edge retention isn't great, it would be interesting to compare the edge retention with a Kramer original. Anyone who has that direct comparison?

 

[WildBoar]

The SLT K-Z gyutos I handled were all, well, handle-heavy. When a wa or hybrid version comes out, I suspect the balance point will move more down the blade and be more in line with what I prefer.

 

[mpukas]

I would like a 240-270 length carbon knife with a premium placed on balance and geometry. I wouldn't mind something thinner than the Hattori, if only to broaden my experience with a wide range of knife styles. Looking to spend no more than $300-350.

+1 on the Sakai Yusuke 240 yo-gyuto f/ Blue Way Japan. Finding a solid steel carbon knife w/ a western handle is a bit challenging - not many options.

I have the 270 yo version and love it! I also have a 270 FH, and I actually prefer the Yusuke knife to it, and I LOVE the FH. Great value, excellent quality. Can get crazy sharp and holds an edge quite well. Doesn't keep that off-the-stones shaving sharp edge for long, but keeps an edge that's very acceptable for kitchen work and touches up nicely w/ a MAC ceramic stick if I'm in a hurry or better yet a few passes on some loaded strops.

 

[deanb]

Since it's been mentioned a few times that the edge retention isn't great, it would be interesting to compare the edge retention with a Kramer original. Anyone who has that direct comparison?

I have both and I can't tell the difference in edge retention. Also, in regards to balance, both knives balance at the front of the bolster. For a pinch grip this is neither blade heavy nor handle heavy. It's exactly where you want the balance point. I think that the balance point should be directly under the knuckle of your index finger.

 

[JohnnyChance]

I would like a 240-270 length carbon knife with a premium placed on balance and geometry. I wouldn't mind something thinner than the Hattori, if only to broaden my experience with a wide range of knife styles. Looking to spend no more than $300-350.

DT ITK in 52100? Masamoto KS? Neither is super thin, if you want that then I guess Konosuke is the preferred standard.

I have a Sakai Gyuto from bluewayjapan and even at almost double the price I would rather have the Kramer. The Sakai white steel isn't nearly as fun as the 52100 of the Kramer, edge retention is about the same, and reactivity is about 20x worse. The white might get a tad sharper, but doesn't keep it.

I am not sure what improvements geometry wise you are looking for over the Kramer. It could use a bit more convexing to reduce sticking a tad more, but I have no problems with wedging or major sticking. Profile I can see how you might prefer something different. A shorter heel and less bull nosed tip would improve it for me.

EDIT: It terms of the edge retention issue, it isn't spectacular, but it isn't a deal breaker either. It strops and hones well and certainly for home users it is more than adequate. But it could be a bit better. The edge stability/toughness is great though. I have had no issues with chipping, even when butchering whole birds, fish, and hitting olive pits accidentally.

 

[UglyJoe]

I like those suggestions, but he's not looking for a wa handle knife... he likes a knife that's balanced farther back and is more handle heavy. Some of the Gesshin knives would probably fit the bill for thinner than the Hattori but still western and balanced correctly.

 

[EdipisReks]

I like those suggestions, but he's not looking for a wa handle knife... he likes a knife that's balanced farther back and is more handle heavy.

he has no real way of knowing that until he tries a wa knife. i thought the same thing, until i bought a wa knife.

 

[JohnnyChance]

Oh right, I forgot he didn't want wa. Don't the 52100 ITKs come in western handles sometimes?

 

[Eamon Burke]

What the hell is this thread about?! Are there seriously 19 pages of talk about the Kramer branded knife from Henckels?

 

[jaybett]

What the hell is this thread about?! Are there seriously 19 pages of talk about the Kramer branded knife from Henckels?

Are you surprised to find a thread about a knife, on a knife forum?

Jay

 

[EdipisReks]

this is a knife forum? no wonder there isn't much talk about ponies!

 

[obtuse]

I prefer western handles as well... not for any particular reason. I have knives both yo and wa, I like western for western-style knives and wa for traditional Japanese knives. I don't like ponies that bite.

 

[Dave Martell]

Anyone notice the number of views that this thread has?

 

[steeley]

IT'S always been about the ponies.
and tasty turtles

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[so_sleepy]

Anyone notice the number of views that this thread has?

That is Google traffic. This thread is the #3 link right after SLT and youtube.

 

[Dave Martell]

That is Google traffic. This thread is the #3 link right after SLT and youtube.

Cool!

 

[mpukas]

I have a Sakai Gyuto from bluewayjapan and even at almost double the price I would rather have the Kramer. The Sakai white steel isn't nearly as fun as the 52100 of the Kramer, edge retention is about the same, and reactivity is about 20x worse. The white might get a tad sharper, but doesn't keep it.

I find this very interesting - appreciate the comments as I have a 270 Yusuke f/ BWJ that is my main knife. I like it quite a lot, but there are a lot of other knives I want to try and compare it to - the Z-K being one of them.

Do you find the Z-K holds an edge better? Why do you find the 52100 "more fun" than the white #2 - better on stones? When I got into J-knives I wans't sure I'd like a wa handle. Now I like it lot, and am not sure I'd like the handle on the Z-K; but as far as western handles go, it seems pretty darn cool. Cheers! mpp

 

[JohnnyChance]

I find the Sakai so reactive that I have to babysit it and can't use it for a number of things (acid foods, onions, etc). I find it a little annoying to work around its reactivity, that's why the 52100 is more fun. Once you have a nice patina, and it takes one easily, it doesn't discolor food, doesn't smell and doesn't rust easily. Sharpness and edge retention are pretty similar between the two.

I too prefer wa handles, but the ZK western is pretty comfy.

 

[Seb]

Interesting... my White#2 Yusuke and my Masamoto HC are my least reactive carbons.

 

[mpukas]

Yeah, I find that interessting too. I don't have any problems w/ reactivity w/ my Yusuke. It developed a patina pretty qucikly, and it's ever changeing depending on what I'm cutting - acidic, proteins, etc. And I'm not a patina queen, so every so often I'll scrub it a bit w/ a scotch brite pad to clean it up - sometimes I find the patina gets "sticky" when wiping it down. Never had a rust problem, discoloration, smells, etc. even after cutting limes and letting it sit for 1/2 hour. Not at all reactive like the cheap iron cladding on my Moritaka.

 

[JohnnyChance]

Interesting... my White#2 Yusuke and my Masamoto HC are my least reactive carbons.

Yeah, I find that interessting too. I don't have any problems w/ reactivity w/ my Yusuke. It developed a patina pretty qucikly, and it's ever changeing depending on what I'm cutting - acidic, proteins, etc. And I'm not a patina queen, so every so often I'll scrub it a bit w/ a scotch brite pad to clean it up - sometimes I find the patina gets "sticky" when wiping it down. Never had a rust problem, discoloration, smells, etc. even after cutting limes and letting it sit for 1/2 hour. Not at all reactive like the cheap iron cladding on my Moritaka.

Hmm, that's weird. Mine is super reactive. I have had natural and mustard patinas and both have colored foods, smelled, rusted, etc. I also forgot to add that the edge feels "brittle". I am not sure how to describe it, I am not saying that the edge crumbles or doesn't stand up. It just feels brittle or flexible whenever the blade walks or rocks on the board. I don't do this a lot, but when I do, it doesn't feel great, almost like nails on a chalkboard.

 

[EdipisReks]

the Yusuke is white 2, right? i have several white 2 knives, and none are amazingly reactive.

 

[JohnnyChance]

Yes, White #2.

 

[EdipisReks]

weird, then. my Konosuke white, which is quite similar to that knife, is neither very reactive (it puts the forced in forced patina) or brittle at the edge. must be something specific to their implementation.

 

[mpukas]

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I also forgot to add that the edge feels "brittle". I am not sure how to describe it, I am not saying that the edge crumbles or doesn't stand up. It just feels brittle or flexible whenever the blade walks or rocks on the board. I don't do this a lot, but when I do, it doesn't feel great, almost like nails on a chalkboard.

The facory edge on my knife did seem brittle - I used the factory edge for a bit to see what it was like, and I got a few micro-chips. Felt the same way you describe when rocking and walking. Since I've sharpened itmyself, I've had zero chipping issues, and the edge feels much sturdier and stronger. Not sure why...

Here's an e-mail response I got f/ Keiichi when I asked about the sticker on the box that says "carbon steel";

Yusuke always says it is a white #2 steel but inscribes "carbon steel" on the sticker for it. I assume it is something improved white steel, I can not specify the particular name though. Because I use a short sujihiki in white #2 steel in my kitchen and I saw that it was not very reactive against the lemons or other acid foods. There are small rust spots on my blade but it is not very serious. So it seems to have both characteristics of carbon and stainless steel. I like my Yusuke very much. Hope those help you.
Regards,
Keiichi​

 

[JohnnyChance]

I have put a ton of edges on the Sakai. I did bring it too far once and the edge crumbled almost immediately. Since then I have backed it off and it has been fine, stable, no chipping, but it still feels brittle on the board. Currently it has an 80/20 edge with some thinning which has been the best for me so far.

 

[mpukas]

I find this all very intriguing how our experiences are so different. You have a lot more experience w/ J-kinves than I do, and I fully believe what your'e describing.

 

[Eamon Burke]

That is Google traffic. This thread is the #3 link right after SLT and youtube.

That is amazing.

 

[mast3quila]

I am loving the 8" Z. Kramer. I have the Shun Kramer Santoku and am wondering if it is worth keeping. In other words, return it to SLT for the ZK paring and utility or hold onto it because it might be worth something someday to a collector.