Laser VS Workhorse

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Keith Sinclair

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I got my first carbon Masamoto in the early 1980's.I still have what is left of it.2mm at the heel & less than 1mm toward the tip.I liked that blade so much,the steel was excellent & performance wise percision cuts,slicing & dicing my favorite blade.Later Masa's were not as good as my original.
 

eaglerock

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I think that it is a personal preference, someone likes a laser, someone likes a heavy knife, someone like flat,......

My sakai yusuke works hard every day, i think it is a true work horse. Food sticking have never been a real big issue with the knife for me.

It is not very comfortable to hold a heavy knife 8 hours a days cutting stuff.

But as Marko pointed "everything comes to balance over time" that is why i want to buy a ks :)
 

stevenStefano

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Something to also consider is if you are left or right-handed. I think if you are a lefty lasers are good because they are thinner so there's less steel to be biased
 

Marko Tsourkan

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That's funny. I was thinking of the same thing.
KS is a decent knife. 3mm over the heel, 2mm half way, about 1.7mm 50mm from the tip by no means a laser, but also not a thick knife. Ground partially flat, partially convex, convexing at about 1/3 of the blade. Edge thickness is .016", quite thick for a performance knife, so to get most of it, you need to thin it (until factory bevel is gone). That will get the edge to about .005, on par with recent DT.

KS edge retention is OK.


M
 

Benuser

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Edge thickness is .016", quite thick for a performance knife, so to get most of it, you need to thin it (until factory bevel is gone). That will get the edge to about .005, on par with recent DT.
Marko, excuse my ignorance, and not trying to hijack the discussion, but where and how do you measure edge thickness? With a micrometer I can only measure thickness at some distance from the very edge.
 

eaglerock

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sorry i should have explained more, i just meant my opinion when picking up knives have changes over the years from lasers to more balanced knives.

I don't really care if it is a fad or not as long as i enjoy using it :)

I also should have said yusuke ks profile is what i'm going for.

My dream knife would be one of yours Marko as i think it is one of the best balanced knives i have seen. would love to try it one day :)
 

ChiliPepper

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Very interesting discussion, I believe this is a topic that should have been discussed in depth a long time ago as it explores two "categories" of knives that have been object of a lot of hype, especially the "laser".
It's kind of a Mythbuster topic that, I believe, would benefit a lot from pros real life experience. Pros as well as experienced hobbyists, that is, and this forum doesn't lack in these categories.
So, is the laser knife a fad or does it have the numbers to survive as a species?
For what it's worth (as an amateur) I've only bought and experienced lasers in the shape of a suji, exclusively for slicing tasks and I'm happy with my thin Yusuke but hell, it flexes a lot and I'm not sure I'd buy a do-it-all gyuto with a similar thickness (or lack thereof)
 

Mucho Bocho

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I'd like to add one distinction between Laser and so called Workhorse knives that is where they are being used. I'm a home Chef so I can take my time using my knives but in a production environment, I thing that something thicker on the spine but still thin behind the edge would be more appropriate.

I'm a huge fan of thin knives. I have the special thin 240 Yusuke in white #2 is its my go to knife for most prep chores. Unless I'm going a lot of repetitive tasks: Vegetables--Nakiri, meat butchery--takeda Bunno, poultry/fish--deba.

that being said, I do have on order 210, 240, 270 2.8mm Keiichi/Mpukas profiled gyutos with flatter profile, 61hr in Swedish.

Cause sometimes you feel like a nut, and sometimes you don’t!
 

Chefdog

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I think "workhorse" depends more on the person wielding the gyuto than the specific dimensions of the knife. For me a gyuto that I can pick up in the morning and use for 95% of what I need to cut (aside from butchery) is a workhorse. For some, that might be a "mighty" gyuto while others rely on a "laser" as their workhorse, depending on thier technique. For me there's a point at which thinner (behind the edge) becomes more of an impediment than a benefit and starts to slow me down.
So i favor the Kate Upton style knives over the Kate Moss's of the gyuto world. :)
 

Marko Tsourkan

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Marko, excuse my ignorance, and not trying to hijack the discussion, but where and how do you measure edge thickness? With a micrometer I can only measure thickness at some distance from the very edge.
You measure the thickness of the edge right at the edge. Digital calipers and a magnifying visor are tools needed to get an idea how thin the edge is.

I typically make following measurements at the blade to assess geometry.

1. At the edge - edge thickness
2. 10mm up the edge - from heel to tip
3. 27mm up the edge on taller knives (end of jaws on my calipers) - from heel to about 2/3 of the blade forward
4. Spine measurement at the handle, over the heel, 50mm from the tip, 10mm from the tip
5. Straight edge against the side of the knife to gauge geometry (grind)

For my own knives, I have target numbers depending on type I grind.

For me a workhorse knife should have some weight. What that weight is, would vary from maker to a maker. A 255mm workhorse that I would make would be about 3.15-3.25mm over the heel, 2.25mm half way, 1.75mm 50mm from the spine, and weigh about 225-240g with the the handle.

A thinner version would be .25 thinner up to 50mm from the tip.
 

Benuser

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Thanks Marko, it's very helpful!
 

zitangy

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I also prefer a heavier knife with a convex grind. Preferred weight around 200 to 220 grams.

Came across a Tojiro DP series of that weight category and grind but alas it is their version of their Western Deba... which is all right with me But their 210mm weighs about 340 grams and the 180mm clocks in at 220grams. Strangely, their version of their Western Debas (WD) blade height is about the same with their gyutos.

THus the thought of getting the 210mm Westren Deba and grinding it to my satisfaction ( just to shed some metal and at the same time maintain the shape and geometry) hopefully ; may be a fun project

rgds
d
 

Matus

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This seems to be a proper thread to ask the following question: Is my 210mm Tanaka R2 gyuto a laser? Its numbers are:
- Blade height at the heel: 49mm
- Weight 131g
- Wa-handle
- Blade width at the spine:
-- at the handle: 2.7mm
-- at the heel: 2.6mm
-- 1/2 way towards the tip: 1.8mm
-- 1cm from the tip: 0.6mm

thanks :)
 

Mateyhv

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I am quite a newbie but from your measures it sounds like a laser.
 

KJDedge

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I've owned a bunch of very thin knives. The only very thin knife I still own is a Konosuke White #2 300mm suji. It's very thin, and it's awesome for slicing roasts, and when I was in Florida in May, I found out that it's awesome for trimming scallops (made a ripert dish that blew my in-laws heads off). For general tasks, I'd rather have a heavier knife that has less stiction than a lighter, thinner knife. That's why I've bought three Heijis.
What’s the Ripert scallop dish recipe?
 

DitmasPork

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Is there any task that a workhorse gyuto is able to perform, that would be difficult or impossible for a laser?

Jay
I have have and use both regularly—Kato WH, Takada—both work nicely with nearly all ingredients, but behave differently. I’ll never switch a gyuto during prep for a specific task/ingredient. Different experience altogether between lasers and workhorses. Happy to have both in the stable.
 

Keith Sinclair

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I got my first carbon Masamoto in the early 1980's.I still have what is left of it.2mm at the heel & less than 1mm toward the tip.I liked that blade so much,the steel was excellent & performance wise percision cuts,slicing & dicing my favorite blade.Later Masa's were not as good as my original.
Can't believe still had my worn down old Masamoto in 2013.

When started teaching sharpening at culinary
Showed them what a favorite old blade looks
like after decades of use.

One of students offered to buy it, was so worn just gave it to him.
 
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