Quantcast

lets have a new razor thread.

Kitchen Knife Forums

Help Support Kitchen Knife Forums:

kayman67

Senior Member
Joined
Aug 3, 2019
Messages
962
Reaction score
547
Location
EU

Razor

Well-Known Member
Joined
Aug 6, 2017
Messages
106
Reaction score
2
It is all relative. What one person considers shave ready is very different for someone else. But this forum is not the place for this discussion. There are many other forums that focus exclusively on the stropping, honing, stone selection, pasted strops, pasted balsa wood, film etc... I don't want to advertise another forum here, but if someone wants to know where to go PM me.
 

stringer

Supporting Member
Joined
Mar 11, 2018
Messages
785
Reaction score
1,308
Location
Boston, MA
It is all relative. What one person considers shave ready is very different for someone else. But this forum is not the place for this discussion. There are many other forums that focus exclusively on the stropping, honing, stone selection, pasted strops, pasted balsa wood, film etc... I don't want to advertise another forum here, but if someone wants to know where to go PM me.
We have one thread devoted to razors. If you don't like it then mute it or something.
 

kayman67

Senior Member
Joined
Aug 3, 2019
Messages
962
Reaction score
547
Location
EU
That's true. It's not all that black and white and the personal part is the foundation, sometimes pure subjective, sometimes based on specific needs.
Where I am, there's some colective experience going around. And we might not agree on everything all the time, but we're friends. I see that as a very good sign of a healthy community. That experience happens nevertheless and is reference enough. So, we have a pretty good idea about what "shave ready" is for everyone. That's why I completely agree with you.
 

Razor

Well-Known Member
Joined
Aug 6, 2017
Messages
106
Reaction score
2
You could explain :)

Sometimes I can get away without stropping. And I know a lot of people who "strop" in their hand after a Jnat and call it a day. But then again there are people that strop 100 times on 5 different strops and never imagine anything else or accept anything else. So, it is what it is.

You know what the problem is with the "razor expertise" is? This post right here https://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/threads/lets-have-a-new-razor-thread.43148/page-10#post-673332
Stropping in your hand is stropping on live leather. I have done that in a pinch, but nothing beats a good stropping progression. I use hard linen, Kanayama cotton and then Kanayama horse hide. You might get away without stropping, but I do it post shave just to get the moisture and crude off the edge.

Another word for taping in the coticule world is unicot. http://www.coticule.be/unicot.html. It is an easier way to get a good result, but eventually most folks abandon unicot and go back to dulicot because they learn their stone. - Another use for tape is for (new to you) razors that might have geometry problems and you don't want to remove too much steel on the spine. A Gold Dollar is a good example. So you sharpie the edge and try to get it in order with tape. Then you pull the tape and set the bevel.

Can you shave off of a stone, sure, but do you always want to be honing your razor or would you rather remove less steel and just use a strop. One problem with stropping is it eventually convexes the edge, especially pasted strops with improper technique. But doing nothing after cutting the equivalent of hair size copper strands makes zero sense and would be a very rough shave.
 

kayman67

Senior Member
Joined
Aug 3, 2019
Messages
962
Reaction score
547
Location
EU
It won't necessarily be, as strange as this might sound.

I feel like you might have skipped some parts.

- Another use for tape is for (new to you) razors that might have geometry problems and you don't want to remove too much steel on the spine.
For example this
https://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/threads/lets-have-a-new-razor-thread.43148/page-11#post-675056

And other stuff. It's like a couple of inches above when I mention stropping maintenance last time.
But let's agree to disagree on this one.
 

Desert Rat

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jun 25, 2019
Messages
103
Reaction score
44
Location
Idaho
There is so much misinformation on this thread I don't know where to start. The discussion on tape is so misguided and wrong; and the suggestion that stropping is not needed is laughable. I suggest sticking to knives on this forum where extreme expertise is abundant and leave razors to other forums where they have razor expertise.
It's a razor thread so it is the right place. So please expand on all that is wrong here...
 

stringer

Supporting Member
Joined
Mar 11, 2018
Messages
785
Reaction score
1,308
Location
Boston, MA
Stropping in your hand is stropping on live leather. I have done that in a pinch, but nothing beats a good stropping progression. I use hard linen, Kanayama cotton and then Kanayama horse hide. You might get away without stropping, but I do it post shave just to get the moisture and crude off the edge.

Another word for taping in the coticule world is unicot. http://www.coticule.be/unicot.html. It is an easier way to get a good result, but eventually most folks abandon unicot and go back to dulicot because they learn their stone. - Another use for tape is for (new to you) razors that might have geometry problems and you don't want to remove too much steel on the spine. A Gold Dollar is a good example. So you sharpie the edge and try to get it in order with tape. Then you pull the tape and set the bevel.

Can you shave off of a stone, sure, but do you always want to be honing your razor or would you rather remove less steel and just use a strop. One problem with stropping is it eventually convexes the edge, especially pasted strops with improper technique. But doing nothing after cutting the equivalent of hair size copper strands makes zero sense and would be a very rough shave.
The problem I mostly have with the razor forums is they are very clique-y. And the conversation is largely dominated by a couple of blowhards and their sycophants. There's a lot more people and moderators trying to control what you can talk about. And people are taught that beginners shouldn't mess with their own tools, which is something I fundamentally disagree with. I find all of these things highly annoying so when this thread kicked off at KKF I was very happy to participate. If you see above I did a whole series of different razors all on dilucot above. I actually agree with most of what you said. I finish on linen and shell leather. I find pasted strops to be unnecessary. I've never tried films nor have any desire to. I also like razors finished on arks, jnats, Jasper, synthetic stones, etc. I don't know everything. But I'm learning fast. I'm more than happy to have you join our conversation but please can the attitude. If you don't like the thread then I suggest you ignore it. I'm up to my neck in coronavirus right now and will not respond gracefully to trollish behavior.
 

vicv

Senior Member
Joined
Jan 13, 2013
Messages
440
Reaction score
113
You could explain :)

Sometimes I can get away without stropping. And I know a lot of people who "strop" in their hand after a Jnat and call it a day. But then again there are people that strop 100 times on 5 different strops and never imagine anything else or accept anything else. So, it is what it is.

You know what the problem is with the "razor expertise" is? This post right here https://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/threads/lets-have-a-new-razor-thread.43148/page-10#post-673332
Was that response at me? Was there something wrong or mis informative about my post?
 

kayman67

Senior Member
Joined
Aug 3, 2019
Messages
962
Reaction score
547
Location
EU
No, it really wasn't. All good.

We are here to weigh info from different perspectives, but also to be a bit outside the box.
 

vicv

Senior Member
Joined
Jan 13, 2013
Messages
440
Reaction score
113
Oh I'm honestly wasn't looking for a fight or an argument. It was just a little ambiguous to me anyway what was meant as either a positive or a negative when you quoted me
 

kayman67

Senior Member
Joined
Aug 3, 2019
Messages
962
Reaction score
547
Location
EU
I understand now. You were a positive experience actually. The good reason and best positive example that popped into my mind at that time.
 

stringer

Supporting Member
Joined
Mar 11, 2018
Messages
785
Reaction score
1,308
Location
Boston, MA
That's what KKF is all about. Sharing simple solutions that work without reference to a bunch of dogma and superstition and questionable claims of expertise.
 

Desert Rat

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jun 25, 2019
Messages
103
Reaction score
44
Location
Idaho
I have revisited Jasper with not much success. Perhaps my surface isn't good enough I don't know. I know there is million different kinds of jasper. What I have at the moment is Owyhee picture jasper that I selected myself and not for beauty.
 

Desert Rat

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jun 25, 2019
Messages
103
Reaction score
44
Location
Idaho
With all the conflicting information out there on coticules I had to jump back in and see for myself what the deal is. I got a couple more to play with and I will decide for myself if only select ones are finishers.

This one is twice as slow as my first one on slurry which is a little disappointing because I was looking forward to the extra real estate of a bigger stone.

 

stringer

Supporting Member
Joined
Mar 11, 2018
Messages
785
Reaction score
1,308
Location
Boston, MA
With all the conflicting information out there on coticules I had to jump back in and see for myself what the deal is. I got a couple more to play with and I will decide for myself if only select ones are finishers.

This one is twice as slow as my first one on slurry which is a little disappointing because I was looking forward to the extra real estate of a bigger stone.


My slower ones tend to produce better final edges. Lately my progression has been
Shapton Pro 1500 for bevel set
Fast coticule for mid range to pre finish
Finish on the slow coticule.

My slower ones are noticeably finer and produce keener edges. YMMV
 

Desert Rat

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jun 25, 2019
Messages
103
Reaction score
44
Location
Idaho
My slower ones tend to produce better final edges. Lately my progression has been
Shapton Pro 1500 for bevel set
Fast coticule for mid range to pre finish
Finish on the slow coticule.

My slower ones are noticeably finer and produce keener edges. YMMV
That's good information. I need to try another razor on this stone, I think this razor is one that is a problem child that has some warp to it and I had to hone it on a narrow hone to get a good edge. It took me a couple weeks with my last coticule to learn how to coax a shaving edge off of it, hopefully the learning curve with this one won't be near as steep.
 

kayman67

Senior Member
Joined
Aug 3, 2019
Messages
962
Reaction score
547
Location
EU
With wider stones, draw an imaginary 1 inch line from the side and concentrate your honing on that part. Consider that's your stone. It helps a lot with such razors. This is one way to manage them.
 

Desert Rat

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jun 25, 2019
Messages
103
Reaction score
44
Location
Idaho
I shaved off a razor honed on the new to me Coticule this morning. It was a good shave but I had to earn it, I got things figured out at 11.30 last night, I spent hours on that stone. I would like to think I am a little wiser but will find out pretty soon because I have a couple more hones I haven't tried. Going to give razor honing a break for a couple of days.
 

Luftmensch

Supporting Member
Joined
Dec 13, 2017
Messages
1,087
Reaction score
847
There is so much misinformation on this thread I don't know where to start. The discussion on tape is so misguided and wrong; and the suggestion that stropping is not needed is laughable. I suggest sticking to knives on this forum where extreme expertise is abundant and leave razors to other forums where they have razor expertise.
That is a bit hastily written and lacks generosity....


... The connection between razors and fine kitchen knives might not be one-to-one... but it does share a sharpening of steel. The first thing I learned to sharpen was razors. That knowledge made sharpening kitchen knives easier in my opinion (although some of the specifics were harder - like free holding an angle). I am sure the reverse is true.

In any community, the most annoying thing is gurus who consider their way the best or only way. Often in life, there are better ways and worse ways - but this is a function of personal preference and opinion. When it comes to sharpness (knife or razor).... almost any method (within reason) is better than no method!

Besides... most of the chatter in razor and knife communities is not necessary for basic function. And it is why both communities dive deep into the minutiae. It is for the joy, the hobby and building of skill.... not to 'get the job done'.

This is apparently "The sharpest place on earth" - surely we have room for a razor thread.
 

vicv

Senior Member
Joined
Jan 13, 2013
Messages
440
Reaction score
113
I agree with the above post. Everyone does things differently and that is not laughable. person I think using a coticule is ridiculous as I can do it in 1/10 the time with other means. Doesn't mean one way the other is wrong. I am still in the strong camp that taping the spine is absolutely wrong and should not be done. But I guess for people with a $500 razor with jimping on the spine they want to keep that original I guess. But to me razors are like knives they're just tools. And everyone has their own ways to maintain their tools and that's okay it's not right or wrong
 

kayman67

Senior Member
Joined
Aug 3, 2019
Messages
962
Reaction score
547
Location
EU
I did read something funny today (not laughable, just made me smile), about how finishing with edge leading was, well, not completely wrong but, let's say, the most difficult way all this time. I smiled even more when this was pretty much related to the need of complex stropping after.

Would you have considered me a complete idiot if I would have been an advocate for this? From afar, how intuitive is this? I mean, just how many times have you seen this before?
 

vicv

Senior Member
Joined
Jan 13, 2013
Messages
440
Reaction score
113
I know edge leading will lead to micro chipping as the grit particles are going to be proud from the surface. But taping the spine....... If you are supposed to lay a razor flat on a stone then obviously the spine is your angle holder. If the edge moves towards the spine but spine thickness stays the same obviously edge will thicken.
I do not think you are an idiot. I think you've been given bad advice from a razor forum. Be honest would you ever had came to taping the spine on your own...?
 

stringer

Supporting Member
Joined
Mar 11, 2018
Messages
785
Reaction score
1,308
Location
Boston, MA
I shaved off a razor honed on the new to me Coticule this morning. It was a good shave but I had to earn it, I got things figured out at 11.30 last night, I spent hours on that stone. I would like to think I am a little wiser but will find out pretty soon because I have a couple more hones I haven't tried. Going to give razor honing a break for a couple of days.
What are you using for bevel set? I do my bevel set with Shapton 1500 (which could be 5 minutes to an hour of work for a massive chip or geometry issue).
After that I only do about 100 laps for the whole dilucot. If that isn't sharp enough then another 50 laps on Jasper or an Ark and it's golden. It took me about 50 razors to dial it in. But now after bevel set it's about a ten minute process to dilucot and strop.
 

kayman67

Senior Member
Joined
Aug 3, 2019
Messages
962
Reaction score
547
Location
EU
Yes. I've done tests of my own to the point where the spine was almost gone. I don't disagree with the effects, I'm just saying that in a normal usage scenario this would take a huge amount of time to become a real problem. But when this started, it was not about using tape or not. It was about what tape is best if you need it. To date, I don't know any respectable guy in the community (in the world) that doesn't use tape in one way or another. From what I've seen, most tapes are a problem on their own.

It's not about micro chipping, it's about how edges develop in a natural way, not as we imagine they do. We can actually force them in a different direction, but that opens doors for new problems that we fix later and so on.
 

Desert Rat

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jun 25, 2019
Messages
103
Reaction score
44
Location
Idaho
What are you using for bevel set? I do my bevel set with Shapton 1500 (which could be 5 minutes to an hour of work for a massive chip or geometry issue).
After that I only do about 100 laps for the whole dilucot. If that isn't sharp enough then another 50 laps on Jasper or an Ark and it's golden. It took me about 50 razors to dial it in. But now after bevel set it's about a ten minute process to dilucot and strop.
I usually set my bevel on Washita's, if it needs chip repair I will take it to a diamond stone or two first.
 

Desert Rat

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jun 25, 2019
Messages
103
Reaction score
44
Location
Idaho
I did read something funny today (not laughable, just made me smile), about how finishing with edge leading was, well, not completely wrong but, let's say, the most difficult way all this time. I smiled even more when this was pretty much related to the need of complex stropping after.

Would you have considered me a complete idiot if I would have been an advocate for this? From afar, how intuitive is this? I mean, just how many times have you seen this before?
More common in japan, sometimes with pull strokes or a variation to remove any bur. I routinely finish with some edge trailing passes a technique I learned in knife sharpening.
Just a couple examples...
 
Top