lets have a new razor thread.

[Luftmensch]

I assume this is one of those times where I should get a nice used cookie sheet from the Salvation Army and not use one of my wife's? Ten years married but I'm learning.

If you don't mind the neighbours thinking you are crazy... you could get in the 'ballpark' by flattening the stone on the road/pavement outside - save the wear and tear on your gear for the last little bit.

Carpentry folk sometimes use glass plates with lapping grit. Eventually the glass dishes... but it is cheap to replace.

 

[Slipstenar]

Honed some razors and had to try a little

 

[stringer]

I want to get an awasedo finisher. My next major sharpening purchase. I've been looking at Watanabe, Aframes, and JNS mostly. But I'm open to suggestions. Budget is probably about $400 all in. It doesn't have to be big and perfect but nothing too narrow. Right now I have a Suita koppa that's okay but not really fine enough. I have a hideriyama that's not really fine enough and a tad soft. My Chinese 12k is too slow. My coticules are great, but I need variety. I have a Shapton pro 12k which is my main finisher now. I want something that's hard and fast and doesn't require a lot of slurry generating. Mostly I'm honing vintage eBay $10 specials.

 

[Matus]

@Slipstenar , you have the coolest stuff.

@stringer - do talk with the shops you mentioned, tell them what kind of setup you have at the moment and ask for advice within your budget. I recall that JNS had some Wakasa that should be within your budget and others will surely have something too. And I agree about the size. I would take 80x140 over 60x200 any day (might be because as a beginner I find easier to hone on a wider stone)

 

[stringer]

I have another question for you razor honers. Has anyone used all of the different 30k shapton options and can tell me what their similarities/differences are? I would like to buy one of them. I am leaning toward the Seven Stone due to the fact that it is much cheaper.

They have all three in stock at sharpeningsupplies.com.

Seven Series 30k - $110
Glass 30k - $360
Pro 30k - $650

I don't think the thickness of the abrasive material matters too much for something like this in terms of function or longevity. For instance, my Shapton Glass 8k is more than ten years old and gets used a lot, but just for very final finishing on micro bevels and obviously for straight razors. I don't think I have used even a quarter of its life. But, more abrasive could explain why the Shapton Pro version is way more expensive. Are there other factors that I am not thinking of? Are there any major differences in performance? Would I be able to go from my Shapton Pro 12k to one of these 30k stones without buying an additional 16k type stone?

 

[Matus]

I have learned past weekend that once a razor has been honed property up to natural finisher, Ale can keep re-honing it on that finisher with a set of 2 Asano naguras.Before that I was about to get a set of glass stones in 2, 4 and 8 grits. Now I may just stick to my Naniwa Superstone 5k if I need to clean up the edge. At least that is where I stand at the moment. I will now try to go the ‘natural finisher only’ way a d see how it works for me.

Btw I have never heard of the ‘Seven’ stones.

 

[kayman67]

Jnats are the embodiment of the rabbit hole.
Make sure you get one that is well tested with razors by someone you are on the same page with.

For the synthetic route, well, it's complicated. People like them for shaving, in a very inconsistent way. Some would never touch them, others would never touch anything else. And even between these guys, the love is not the same for all.

If I were to get a nice finisher set, now I would consider Suehiro Goku 10+20k as first option. That's 1 + 0.5 micron (pretty much same as Shapton 16+30k), but more importantly, considered true mirror finishers (the 10k is considered a full class above Shapton Pro 12k, but much more expensive). Goku 20k is a great stone, but needs an equally great stone before it. This is one of the main reasons some people can't get it to work.
Looks like after Shapton Pro 12k it doesn't perform best. You could try and be satisfied, but who knows.

For the Glass series, 30k could be used directly after 8k HC.
The Pro 30k is somewhat smoother and maybe easier to use than Glass.
*Source it from Japan if you want one. That price is crazy.

There is a lot more love/hate relationship towards Shapton 30k than Suehiro 20k in general.

One additional stone to consider would be the Sigma 13k. With a light touch and proper surface conditioning it should offer an edge between 16 and 30k (or 10-20k if you consider the Suehiros), at ~100-120$. It's also well liked for shaving by most, being compared a bit with a natural feeling.

Obviously the Naniwa Sharpening Stone 12k is still a solid performer for most. Needs a very good lapping while new, to get to the good stuff.

 

[stringer]

I have learned past weekend that once a razor has been honed property up to natural finisher, Ale can keep re-honing it on that finisher with a set of 2 Asano naguras.Before that I was about to get a set of glass stones in 2, 4 and 8 grits. Now I may just stick to my Naniwa Superstone 5k if I need to clean up the edge. At least that is where I stand at the moment. I will now try to go the ‘natural finisher only’ way a d see how it works for me.

Btw I have never heard of the ‘Seven’ stones.

The seven stones are new. I don't know much about them. They look like Glass stones except a little smaller.

I've mostly been using Shapton Glass 4k and 8k for heavy lifting. For finishers I've been experimenting quite a bit. I've gotten decent results with coticules, the Chinese natural, a black ark, my pro 12k. Just always interested in trying more. And I like to setup several similar razors with different finishers so I can compare.


@kayman67 thank you. That's exactly the kind of info I needed. I always forget about those Sigmas.

 

[Luftmensch]

@stringer,

I forget the context. Are you new to razor honing? If so I would go the synthetic route to control all variables until you are confident with your technique. After that you can open the Jnat rabbit hole.

On thing... You don't really need to use such high synthetic grits to get a great shave. You can create a very good edge by 8K. This is personal preference but in my experience these super high grit stones can create screaming edges that can be harsh. But that is not what you asked ... and experimenting is fun....

If I were to get a nice finisher set, now I would consider Suehiro Goku 10+20k as first option. That's 1 + 0.5 micron (pretty much same as Shapton 16+30k), but more importantly, considered true mirror finishers (the 10k is considered a full class above Shapton Pro 12k, but much more expensive).

+1

I have a Gokumyo 20K as well. It is a very, very bright finish. Definitely a mirror finisher! I would add this one to your list for consideration. You can jump from an ~8K type polisher to it. I can't really comment on the others... I have not used them.

I have learned past weekend that once a razor has been honed property up to natural finisher, Ale can keep re-honing it on that finisher with a set of 2 Asano naguras.

Hehe... but i suppose you needed something to properly setup the bevel . I definitely agree... I think the same could be said of synthetics. If you setup your bevel correctly you can get very far with good stropping technique and one or two high grit stones.

 

[stringer]

@stringer,

I forget the context. Are you new to razor honing? If so I would go the synthetic route to control all variables until you are confident with your technique. After that you can open the Jnat rabbit hole.

I'm a few months in to straight razors, but very experienced rabbit hole spelunker.

@stringer,

You don't really need to use such high synthetic grits to get a great shave. You can create a very good edge by 8K. This is personal preference but in my experience these super high grit stones can create screaming edges that can be harsh. But that is not what you asked ... and experimenting is fun....

I'm ready to try some screaming edges. I want to be able to trim my beard like the guy does in this video. Skip to about minute 13.

@stringer,



I have a Gokumyo 20K as well. It is a very, very bright finish. Definitely a mirror finisher! I would add this one to your list for consideration. You can jump from an ~8K type polisher to it. I can't really comment on the others... I have not used them.

The gokumyo is another one that I never really think of, I will definitely keep it in the list to try.

@stringer,

Hehe... but i suppose you needed something to properly setup the bevel . I definitely agree... I think the same could be said of synthetics. If you setup your bevel correctly you can get very far with good stropping technique and one or two high grit stones.

I'm well established for bevel setters and mid range. I have about 15 synthetic stones between 500-5k grit. That particular rabbit hole is well furnished. I just never bothered to get too much beyond that.

Thanks for your suggestions

 

[inferno]

I have another question for you razor honers. Has anyone used all of the different 30k shapton options and can tell me what their similarities/differences are? I would like to buy one of them. I am leaning toward the Seven Stone due to the fact that it is much cheaper.

They have all three in stock at sharpeningsupplies.com.

Seven Series 30k - $110
Glass 30k - $360
Pro 30k - $650

I don't think the thickness of the abrasive material matters too much for something like this in terms of function or longevity. For instance, my Shapton Glass 8k is more than ten years old and gets used a lot, but just for very final finishing on micro bevels and obviously for straight razors. I don't think I have used even a quarter of its life. But, more abrasive could explain why the Shapton Pro version is way more expensive. Are there other factors that I am not thinking of? Are there any major differences in performance? Would I be able to go from my Shapton Pro 12k to one of these 30k stones without buying an additional 16k type stone?

when you go above 10-12k or so then its time for diamond/cbn/cr-ox paste of different grits, not more stones imo, its just a waste of money. i have both the naniwa 12k and the shappro 12k. and they give almost identical edges. tested them yesterday when i tried to make a gyuto to cut toilet paper. (its way way too fine for this btw, 2-3k is optimal).

one step up is the spyderco UF (if you condition it). but imo even that is a waste of time unless you already have it. get a strop, get some pastes, have some fun. because this is what they are made for!

btw the pro 30k is like 360€ from fine tools. i would never buy it though. i can get about a few hundred kilos of cr-ox for that money. and so can you. and its gonne be better.

 

[stringer]

when you go above 10-12k or so then its time for diamond/cbn/cr-ox paste of different grits, not more stones imo, its just a waste of money. i have both the naniwa 12k and the shappro 12k. and they give almost identical edges. tested them yesterday when i tried to make a gyuto to cut toilet paper. (its way way too fine for this btw, 2-3k is optimal).

one step up is the spyderco UF (if you condition it). but imo even that is a waste of time unless you already have it. get a strop, get some pastes, have some fun. because this is what they are made for!

btw the pro 30k is like 360€ from fine tools. i would never buy it though. i can get about a few hundred kilos of cr-ox for that money. and so can you. and its gonne be better.

I already got all that stuff. Right now I have a couple kinds of green, a few white, a few grits of diamond spray, CBN paste, about "eleventy" (in my spouse's count) strops: shell, bovine, linen, denim, cardboard, wood, hanging, paddle, etc. They are all setup with different compounds. Maybe I will explore that world some more before I purchase an expensive synthetic. I'm still probably going to buy a JNat, just because I want one.

 

[inferno]

i want one too a pretty one.

well, a guy at work likes his pastes at least, i think he tops out a 0,5 micron diamond. and its completely mirror and it wont get any sharper imo. no matter what stone. and it does not take any real skill either.
so i'd say this is better than stones. and cheaper too.

and even if the gokumyos would be theoretically better (they wont) they are still 300 bux or so.

maybe you should try out they stuff you have? since you already have it i mean, then its for free.

the old standard for like 100 years or so was cro-ox on leather then just leather. you probably cant beat it now either.

 

[stringer]

i want one too a pretty one.

well, a guy at work likes his pastes at least, i think he tops out a 0,5 micron diamond. and its completely mirror and it wont get any sharper imo. no matter what stone. and it does not take any real skill either.
so i'd say this is better than stones. and cheaper too.

and even if the gokumyos would be theoretically better (they wont) they are still 300 bux or so.

maybe you should try out they stuff you have? since you already have it i mean, then its for free.

the old standard for like 100 years or so was cro-ox on leather then just leather. you probably cant beat it now either.

I definitely will. It's mostly setup for knife stuff so I'll have to make a few adjustments here and there and get some of them cleaned up. Razors are way more picky about cleanliness and grit cross contamination. I have one linen Strop pasted with I think .5 micron CBN paste. It works pretty good. Can't tell much of a difference in the shave between it and the SP 12k. Definitely more harsh and sharper than coticule. Passes HHT better. I'll get some test specimens rigged up.

 

[kayman67]

I agree that a maxed SS12k is a formidable stone. The best way I was able to do so, was actually using a piece of another SS12k with it.

This won't take anything from using stones that will push everything up.
Obviously diminishing returns will hit hard.
It will always be highly debatable if it's worth it or not.
I could have settled a lot time ago for many things.

 

[Slipstenar]

Well I know that our opinions are split in a few different directions..

But my 2 cents here..

Most of the time its not the finishers fault that the shave is off.. Its the bevelsetting and the midgrit range.
The cheapest way to get those screaming edges is related to the above... Then a strop with cbn or diamondspray will make the edge more than sharp for anyone, but the tradeoff is the comfort.

To be able to trim the beard like someone mentioned is no problem even after a 10k stone with proper stropping. I have a glass like beard and can do that without any problems at all, its about angles that you hold the razor. AND there is more to the angles, as you can see in his video, the angle is high and that will kill a edge like a brick will ruin a window

The urge to go higher in grit than 10k or 12k is a big hit in the wallet and for most of the case you will not feel a difference in the shave. Technique is the key for 98% of the shaves and the honing, so its better to practice than go and buy new stuff ( I KNOW ITS FUN WITH NEW STUFF)

 

[kayman67]

It's not about results alone. Stopped being with lots of things around here a long time ago. If I were to be completely honest with myself, I already have several stones I could use as one stone honing along with a couple of strops and I would not need anything else for a comfortable keen edge. I think, despite having some great Jnats, I would actually go for a coticule (I would have never imagined myself saying this years ago). I have a few fine super fast ones that would get black in no time and bring back a razor from dead to popping hair. Took me some time to find them, but it's not impossible. Most will do, these are just faster and easier.

The good part about setting a bevel is the consensus. There is always an emphasis on this in tutorials. Also there aren't that many stones people would love to use. It's a well known quantity. Same for most middle grits.
Things get really crazy after. That's why the debate.

When I had to learn "razors", I actually had to learn 3 different things at once. They come in a sequence and will kill the entire previous work, if done wrong. Obviously honing gets the most attention. But after that, there's stropping. Well done stropping on its own can take a razor a long way, while at the same time, just one wrong turn and the edge is done for. Stropping looks easy and very straightforward, so most people won't focus on technique for a long time, trying to understand where the problem is and going back to honing a lot, searchingfor nnew stones and so on.
And there's the shaving part. Again, technique is essential. Even the best razor in the world won't be able to compensate for lacking it. I've adapted everything to my own needs, including the shaving technique. This is the only reason I am stubborn enough to use razors anyway.

 

[Matus]

I completely agree with the above. And the necessity to learn all 3 things in parallel makes it harder to nail down when things do not work as expected. The learning curve is much steeper than I anticipated.

 

[Luftmensch]

I'm a few months in to straight razors, but very experienced rabbit hole spelunker.

Thats a dangerous mix of experiences!

I'm well established for bevel setters and mid range. I have about 15 synthetic stones between 500-5k grit.

Holly **** man! That is a lot of synthetics!

Hehe... I was musing on the statement that once the bevel is set, you could go for a long, long (long) time with good stropping and a high grit stone. Maybe indefinitely? BUT obviously something has to set up the bevel! So a one stone 'zen' is not really practical (or fun... or remotely what you asked!).

when you go above 10-12k or so then its time for diamond/cbn/cr-ox paste of different grits, not more stones imo, its just a waste of money.

This is probably true... it is much more cost effective.

I definitely will. It's mostly setup for knife stuff so I'll have to make a few adjustments here and there and get some of them cleaned up. Razors are way more picky about cleanliness and grit cross contamination.

Once piece of advice I might offer is that I find it more efficient to use separate sets of stones for my razors and knives. Perhaps you already do this?

Like you observe, cleanliness and grit contamination is an issue. The bigger issue for me is keeping them flat. It is easier getting a good edge off flat stones. As I am sure you have noticed, razors will dish stones relatively slowly. Flattening that uneven wear with a diamond plate is trivial - only a few seconds work. If you mix it up with a kitchen knife, that will cause deeper dishing meaning more time required to flatten the stone. That said... this diminishes as you go up the grit range and the stones wear slower.

Most of the time its not the finishers fault that the shave is off.. Its the bevelsetting and the midgrit range.
The cheapest way to get those screaming edges is related to the above... Then a strop with cbn or diamondspray will make the edge more than sharp for anyone, but the tradeoff is the comfort.

Extremely good advice. To put it more colourfully... "you cant polish a turd". But it does sound like you are doing all the foundation work:

I have one linen Strop pasted with I think .5 micron CBN paste. It works pretty good. Can't tell much of a difference in the shave between it and the SP 12k. Definitely more harsh and sharper than coticule

Rethinking your situation, given how many synthetics you have, your best fun-per-dollar (subjective of course!) might be to: work with the synthetics you have... experiment with some compounds and save up for a J-nat!

This might inform your choice... I don't regret buying the Gokumyo 20K. But I wouldn't do it again. I 'had to know', so I empathise with the urge... it was part of the journey. But that moment passed very quickly. Yes the edges were that little bit sharper but they were also more uncomfortable. Feather disposable blades are a good analogy (if you've had experience with them?). Some people love them. Many think they are harsh and too demanding of technique. I fall in the later camp. But there is so much subjectivity in all this - so your journey may be different!

 

[kayman67]

Heh, "had to know" is my most expensive line.

I can't say much about "indefinitely" as I haven't been around that long.

In my wild days, when I got a new razor, I used to clean it and all that and killing the edge to put it back with one stone. Sometimes it was quite a challenge. This made me also learn that 1 inch honing technique.

 

[inferno]

did you try some stropping stringer?? if you dont have a good strop to try your finest paste on you can just use some double folded copy paper or cardboard or similar i guess. just tape it to something and test it.

there is an alternative that i think is more liked that fine jnats in the razor community.

escher stones. or thuringians (from thüringen in the weimar republic).

all eschers are thuringians though. escher was a company that sold thuringians, but they selected the good magical ones supposedly. and yada yaada.
supposedly the edges get so sharp they can split atoms from at least 20 different chemical elements. because of this ability, eschers was the very core of the german ww2 nuke program.

 

[kayman67]

I had some military hones. All man made. Myth debunked I guess.

But you might be on to something here. Most Eschers were exported to US and I see the connection now.

I wonder if eating one would get me closer to Captain America of something. Hm... Note to self.

 

[inferno]

I dont know how these are. i just know its the holy grail for many razor users. so i guess they are quite good. and also expensive now. but i kinda doubt they are like a grand or so like some jnats.
200 maybe?? i dont know.

 

[kayman67]

I have a few, but yeah, these days the prices are mad. This year seems like 1500$ is the norm for a small one with Barber's delight label. Bigger stamped ones I've seen gone for 1k more.

 

[inferno]

wow!! really?? i would have guessed 2-300 or so for a real escher but i guess there is the good old supply/demand/(hype) at work, as always. i should have known.

 

[kayman67]

Yeah. I couldn't touch one right now.

 

[stringer]

I think my honing and stropping technique is coming along much quicker than my shaving technique. eBay razors are so damn cheap. I bought a.....few of them. I get as much practice as I want. My shaves are adequate, but I can only shave once a day and I'm too compulsive to just stick with one so I'm rotating through all of them and some of them still aren't quite shave ready. Got some nicks I can't see but my neck can feel. I got some that are splendid. I'm sure I'll settle down a bit after a few months. Shaving skills are what they are. I'm still at the point where if I try to get real close I get a lot of irritation. But if I'm patient and attentive I can pull off a close comfortable shave in 2 passes. Which is really all I need. Trimming my mustache and beard with the razor would be cool. But I also am real good at doing that with little scissors and my electric trimmer. So I'll keep working on the skill of it over time.

I've wanted a high grit synthetic for a long time but it does make sense that diamonds and pastes can scratch those itches with mostly stuff I have lying around the bench. I finished a little red Imp on the CBN strop last night. It was quite sharp this morning.

That helps my budget for the JNat too. Although I did find out yesterday that I have to buy a new car, so I'll probably have to hold off a bit. Anyway, here's my little collection:
Strops

Shave ready rotation


A few more in works in progress stage

 

[Luftmensch]

And there's the shaving part. Again, technique is essential.

I completely agree with the above. And the necessity to learn all 3 things in parallel makes it harder to nail down when things do not work as expected. The learning curve is much steeper than I anticipated

Thats why I usually dispense this sort of this advice:

Start with a trusted straight razor brand and have it sharpened/maintained by somebody who knows what they are doing. Alternatively, consider starting with disposable straight razors. Either scenario will allow them to focus on their straight razor technique while knowing the blade is serviceable. After gaining confidence in shaving technique, then move on to sharpening. Sharpening whilst learning to shave is a lot of free variables to debug.

It is possible to focus on shaving technique alone when starting straight razor shaving - particularly when using disposables. You can completely forget about honing and stropping! I don't know of anyone who has followed this advice .... so it must not be very good (... I know it is not 'glamorous' advice and tends towards the 'boring' )

Technique really is where it begins and ends. A razor is an inanimate object... it doesnt 'shave'... you do!

Heh, "had to know" is my most expensive line.

Amen!

I think my honing and stropping technique is coming along much quicker than my shaving technique.

Good to hear! Keep at it!

eBay razors are so damn cheap. I bought a.....few of them. I get as much practice as I want.

I am sure you have considered this... but be careful that you aren't getting razors with ****** steel. It might pay dividends to stick with one razor for a while so you can eliminate some variables and work on your shaving technique.

On the other hand it is good you are experimenting with different grinds. I have been sporting a shortish beard for a loooong time now. I am lucky to be in a position where I can look a bit like Grizzly Adams. I used to shave frequently but I only shave about once a month now - my neck and cheeks. I trim the beard at the same time with either the razor, scissors or trimmer... or a combination. It all depends on my mood! When I was shaving frequently I preferred hollow razors. Now that I need to cut through a dense forest I prefer razors that more ridged (less hollow and more wedge like). This is one of the advantages of a straight razor - you can get a close shave on long hair in one pass. A double edged razor or cartridge razor will clog up and a trimmer isn't as close.

I'm still at the point where if I try to get real close I get a lot of irritation. But if I'm patient and attentive I can pull off a close comfortable shave in 2 passes. Which is really all I need.

It sounds like you are progressing quickly. Everybody has their own standard and reasons for shaving. A one or two pass shave is what I do to neaten up (with and across the grain). If I want to pamper myself or there is a special event I might finish off with an against the grain pass. It feels unreal but it is not practical - I tend to get ingrown hairs.

A few more in works in progress stage

Ee bah gum lad!!! You don't do anything by halves do ye boyo!?

 

[stringer]

Ee bah gum lad!!! You don't do anything by halves do ye boyo!?

All in or nothing. My budget was $300. That was what was in my PayPal before the spending spree. I did get one at a flea market with cash for $50 on top of that I guess. It's a nice art deco shoulderless with a worked spine. Other than that, all those strops and razors for $300. And I only ended up with one strop and one razor out of the lot that's absolutely unfixable. I'm gonna make the razor into a really nice letter opener for someone. And I'm going to cannibalize the wrecked strop to repair some of the other ones.
And for the razor collection, I've got all of the grinds from wedge to bellied hollow and every major region. England, Germany, Sweden, France, Japan, USA, Soviet Union. And I have blades from 3/8-7/8 and from the 1830s-1960s. Some are in rough shape. But mostly just scales issues. I didn't buy any with large chips or crazy hone wear or lots of rust. I will buy nicer ones eventually and trade some of these out. I went through the same process with knives. I consider it part of the learning experience. Anyways, now you can see why I need more options to experiment with in terms of finishers.

 

[kayman67]

The advice for a "well proven" razor looks good, but might have some shortcomings. Who knows. I tried this a few times just to test my own level of sharpening and didn't go very well. Guys who work volume and also manage to do a great job, while understanding specifics, are rare.