Looking for a knife with excellent food release

[damiano]

Robert Herder would be an excellent pick, now that I think of it. My Herder paring flies through food. Look at the Bernal website, e.g. this one (though sold out now):

https://bernalcutlery.com/collectio...muehlenmesser-k3-475-utility-stainless-walnut

 

[Jovidah]

Err I'd give a nope to that. Yes the Herders are all lasers because they're thin behind the edge, but they don't excel in food release. You just don't notice it on the paring knife due to the way you tend to use it. My K5 is actually one of the stickiest knives I have. Cuts great because it's basically a German laser, but food release? Not its strong suit...

 

[damiano]

@Jovidah That’s helpful advice and good to know! I was actually thinking of getting one of these myself but am reconsidering now based on your experience.

 

[Jovidah]

I'll write down my notes and experiences in a little mini-review, but I have some reservations about recommending it. The food release isn't the biggest problem IMO (doesn't bother me much), but the handle is.

 

[dglevy]

As for Japanese single-bevel knives, those would not be recommendable for your application. They're pretty piss-poor for chopping or dicing tall things. If you were to use an usuba or mukimono upon an apple, you'd most likely be using techniques like these.

Thanks for your comment. Good point.

https://japanesechefsknife.com/coll...ayaki-basic-series-slicer-180mm-210mm-2-sizes

This is intriguing. Did you recommend this sujihiki because the blade width is fairly narrow, at 1.2", or is there something else about the knife that aids food separation?

 

[dglevy]

Err I'd give a nope to that. Yes the Herders are all lasers because they're thin behind the edge, but they don't excel in food release. You just don't notice it on the paring knife due to the way you tend to use it. My K5 is actually one of the stickiest knives I have. Cuts great because it's basically a German laser, but food release? Not its strong suit...

Yes, that's my experience with my Randy Haas 240mm gyuto. I don't know if it would be called a laser but it's pretty thin--it cuts through carrots more easily than my Tojiro 210mm gyuto. But, boy, is it sticky! One of the side benefits of this thread for me is that I've realized, after several years of owning the Randy Haas, that it's not all that unusual for a blade to be sticky. Up to now, I always thought it was the fault of the maker.

 

[DrEriksson]

You'll just be wasting your money.

I thought that was what we did!? Now I feel lost and confused.

 

[DavidPF]

Up to now, I always thought it was the fault of the maker

Knives that don't stick are definitely the exception; that's why discussions like this even exist.

You can imagine that a knife made of ordinary window glass would stick to things VERY badly. That's part of the problem - shiny, perfect, non-porous surfaces really stick. Another part is we don't know the magic formula of what kind of imperfection and what kind of porousness will really fix that AND are not too difficult to create on a steel blade. And another part is that's probably not the entire story. We know a mirror polished thin flat blade is always sticky as hell, but we haven't figured out the truly effective ways of roughing it up, making it bumpy, making it "just not shiny", punching holes in it, etc etc, to really make it work. There's a lot of guessing and a lot of giving up.

One pretty helpful trick that we don't like for obvious reasons: irregularly serrate and roughen the edge of the blade, making the sliced food rough and irregular and therefore less sticky.

Another unpopular solution: Get used to stuff sticking to the knife.

 

[Danzo]

I think you’d be hard pressed to get a knife with good food release qualities for your budget of $100. Qualities like food release from convex and wide bevel grinds are typically a result of hand finished knives. Putting you above that mark pretty quick

 

[DavidPF]

Total speculation: most of what we do to steel surfaces to make them less sticky is to remove material - sanding, drilling, etc. Maybe we need to glue little tire-studs on our blades.

 

[DavidPF]

Slightly disgusting example of smooth perfect surfaces sticking: I once accidentally deeply cut my chin. However, my skin was already nice and clean, and the deep cut was from a brand-new Japanese-factory-sharp disposable razor blade. That cut healed incredibly quickly, because the cut was so smooth and neat - the sides stuck themselves right back together.

 

[M1k3]

Thanks for your comment. Good point.



This is intriguing. Did you recommend this sujihiki because the blade width is fairly narrow, at 1.2", or is there something else about the knife that aids food separation?

Narrow height and fits your budget. And available in a size under 240mm.

 

[Boynutman]

How about a Nakiri? Many have a grind that to me look optimized for food release and easy cutting: 1-2cm wide bevel and flat beyond that up to the spine. I have a Kikuichimonji 165mm
in AS, nothing special but happy with it.

 

[dglevy]

Narrow height and fits your budget. And available in a size under 240mm.

After seeing your post, I went back and tried using my Tojiro petty, which has a height of just under 1" at the heel. I still didn't like the way the food would stick and pile up.

How about a Nakiri? Many have a grind that to me look optimized for food release and easy cutting: 1-2cm wide bevel and flat beyond that up to the spine. I have a Kikuichimonji 165mm
in AS, nothing special but happy with it.

Does the food separate with your Kikuichimonji 165mm?

 

[Boynutman]

Yes, it does. I would not say perfect drop dead separation (could also be a technique thing), but good enough not to cause irritation, no suction cup style sticking like on most of my gyutos.
I have wondered why not that many gyutos have such grinds.

 

[SeattleB]

I once accidentally deeply cut my chin. However, my skin was already nice and clean, and the deep cut was from a brand-new Japanese-factory-sharp disposable razor blade. That cut healed incredibly quickly, because the cut was so smooth and neat - the sides stuck themselves right back together.

I cut my ring finger recently with my new Yoshikane Tsuchime SKD12 while slicing a bagel. A very effective cutting tool. The bleeding cleaned the wound throughly. It healed oddly fast but I'll pass on doing that again.

 

[dglevy]

I was looking through my notes from years ago and came across this quote from a vendor: "Uneven hammer design prevents food from sticking to the blade". That led me to these knives--a lot prettier than the Glestains, and still meets my stainless requirement and $100 limit:
Enso HD, HRC 61 claimed, VG-10 damascus:

1. utility 150mm/6", $90 shipped
2. prep, 140 mm/5.5", $100 shipped

Apparently, these are Yaxell Zen knives re-badged for cutleryandmore. Anyone have experience with Enso HD or Yaxell Zenn regarding blade quality (edge retention, etc.) and stiction?

 

[Benuser]

https://japanesechefsknife.com/coll...ayaki-basic-series-slicer-180mm-210mm-2-sizes

Exactly. Look for a narrow blade. I use this 'slicer' as a petty. Slight forward motion, followed by pulling. No chance it sticks.
https://japanesechefsknife.com/products/misono-440-series-slicer-knife

 

[btbyrd]

I was looking through my notes from years ago and came across this quote from a vendor: "Uneven hammer design prevents food from sticking to the blade". That led me to these knives--a lot prettier than the Glestains, and still meets my stainless requirement and $100 limit:
Enso HD, HRC 61 claimed, VG-10 damascus:

1. utility 150mm/6", $90 shipped
2. prep, 140 mm/5.5", $100 shipped

Apparently, these are Yaxell Zen knives re-badged for cutleryandmore. Anyone have experience with Enso HD or Yaxell Zenn regarding blade quality (edge retention, etc.) and stiction?

Hammered finishes are mostly for cosmetic purposes rather than for providing any functional benefit. The grind matters much more than the finish in this regard. Here's the Enso HD utility knife failing the apple stiction test:



As I indicated earlier in the thread, I think you'd be well served by using your current knives but changing your cutting technique. As barclid's video shows, the very same knife can have a lot of stiction with push-cuts and chops, but have no stiction using draw cuts and cutting with the tip of the knife. But if you're dead set on buying something, I'd take a look at the Glestains.

 

[Jovidah]

Knives that don't stick are definitely the exception; that's why discussions like this even exist.

You can imagine that a knife made of ordinary window glass would stick to things VERY badly. That's part of the problem - shiny, perfect, non-porous surfaces really stick. Another part is we don't know the magic formula of what kind of imperfection and what kind of porousness will really fix that AND are not too difficult to create on a steel blade. And another part is that's probably not the entire story. We know a mirror polished thin flat blade is always sticky as hell, but we haven't figured out the truly effective ways of roughing it up, making it bumpy, making it "just not shiny", punching holes in it, etc etc, to really make it work. There's a lot of guessing and a lot of giving up.

One pretty helpful trick that we don't like for obvious reasons: irregularly serrate and roughen the edge of the blade, making the sliced food rough and irregular and therefore less sticky.

Another unpopular solution: Get used to stuff sticking to the knife.

The main issue is that every knife is a compromise. This is a bit of an oversimplication but just to make the point: For example extremely thin knives - commonly called lasers - tend to do hard vegetables like carrots better, where thicker knives tend to split them more (you hear the 'crack'). On thicker knives you have more room to work with to adapt a grind to food release, but since it's wider it'll suck more on hard produce.
So in large part the topic keeps coming up because people ideally want to have both in the same knife; they want a knife that can cut carrots easily without cracking, and still want proper food release. It's easy to make a knife that does either well, very hard to make one that does both. That's the 'holy grail' a lot of people are looking for now.

Punching holes in is being done. It's done on (soft) cheese knives for example, and it exists on some bigger knives too, but it's more of a niche thing and comes with as much problems as it solves. Similarly, big scallops are invented to adress the whole food release problem, with varying results. Supposedly the Glestain knives actually work in that regard, but boy are they hideous - and relatively expensive for what's otherwise an unremarkable knife. And given the extra thickness needed to accomodate the scallops I don't expect it to be a great carrot slayer.

Serrating and roughening the edge again creates new problems; you break more cell leading to a rougher cut, faster oxydation of product and it just looks like crap; you basially get a similar result to having a blunter knife.
Getting used to stuff sticking is actually what a lot of people do who don't want to give up on their lasers. Personally it doesn't bother me much... but I'm a home user who isn't hammering trough entire crates of produce on a strict time schedule, so my perspective is different from that of professional users.

Adding more stuff to the blade like the studs you mentioned (or anything else to 'push stuff off) creates the problem that it might bruise the product while cutting, and is likely to cause more drag. A much more sensible solution are the hollow grinds you see on some custom makers blades like Dalmans, though I have no experience with how well it works compared to other solutions. But at least it doesn't look as hideous as the Glestain stuff...