looking to get started but confused

[Juan]

hi everyone,

first off id like to apologize as this has been covered in other posts, however for someone at my level its quite overwhelming. I like everyone else here want to sharpen my edges, but I'm terribly lost on where to start and what stones I should start with. I have a few kitchen knives and also restore/use straight razors. I'm looking for recommendations on reading materials, videos or how to determine what stones I should start with. as a beginner I'm not against entry-level stones, I'd actually would prefer not to muck up good stones in the process of learning. Also, should I buy used? if so what should I look in used stones?

i guess in summary:

• what range of stones?
• combo vs non?
• used vs new?
• resources on techniques to use

thanks for any input or guidance, looking forward to learning and sharing my progress

 

[SeattleBen]

Canonical answer for videos is going to be Jon Broida and Peter Nowlan. They're both super accessible and useful.

Just buy new stones.

There really aren't going to be bad stones recommended.

 

[kayman67]

1. Middle of the road stone. Since you are doing razors as well, I would say Shapton Pro 2k.

2. Next step stone. Also having razors in mind, if I were to need one, I would get Naniwa Hayabusa 4k. Cheap, great performer with most steels, killer carbon stone if you use any. A nice alternative is Shapton Glass HC 4k, but more expensive. I would be a happy camper with Hayabusa.

3. Naniwa Fuji 8k or even better, the Glass HC 8k, but again, quite expensive in comparison. Difficult choice for me here, since I love the HC 8k a lot.

4. Honestly you don't need the 12k after any of these. With a very light touch on the 8ks, the differences are minimal. If you finish on a natural, skipping the 12k is even easier.

All should be great razor stones (main concern) and all perform at a high level with most alloys.

5. Coarse stone. I don't really know that many solid coarse stones, but you can consider a diamond plate (Atoma) or a crystolon (not good for razors though) or a water stone (right now I'm looking into Nano hone 200).

 

[Juan]

Canonical answer for videos is going to be Jon Broida and Peter Nowlan. They're both super accessible and useful.

Just buy new stones.

There really aren't going to be bad stones recommended.

awesome, I've started watching Jon's. I'm sure I will keep referencing it.

1. Middle of the road stone. Since you are doing razors as well, I would say Shapton Pro 2k.

2. Next step stone. Also having razors in mind, if I were to need one, I would get Naniwa Hayabusa 4k. Cheap, great performer with most steels, killer carbon stone if you use any. A nice alternative is Shapton Glass HC 4k, but more expensive. I would be a happy camper with Hayabusa.

3. Naniwa Fuji 8k or even better, the Glass HC 8k, but again, quite expensive in comparison. Difficult choice for me here, since I love the HC 8k a lot.

4. Honestly, you don't need the 12k after any of these. With a very light touch on the 8ks, the differences are minimal. If you finish on a natural, skipping the 12k is even easier.

All should be great razor stones (main concern) and all perform at a high level with most alloys.

5. Coarse stone. I don't really know that many solid coarse stones, but you can consider a diamond plate (Atoma) or a crystolon (not good for razors though) or a water stone (right now I'm looking into Nano hone 200).

Thank you this is very helpful i will start looking into these stones.

 

[PappaG]

Everyone is going to give you a different opinion on where to start. For a beginner I always recommend that you go cheap and simple. For cheap and simple, I recommend a set of King Stones - 300 grit, 1000 or 1200 grit, and I would suggest you hold off on a polishing stone until you get use to the 1000 girt.

If you want to spend a little more, get a set of shapton pros in a similar grit range - 320, 1000 and a 2000 would be a really good starting set as well.

There are no wrong answers here. You are going to get a million opinions, but I suggest you keep researching and keep your first set of stones simple and cheap, because you have no idea what you like/don't like yet.

If you enjoy sharpening, which most of us do, you will probably end up spending a lot more on stones, but there is no need in the beginning.

 

[SeattleBen]

There's tons of people who live and die off the Shapton pros. They're durable and cheap.

 

[gman]

most important thing is practice, practice, practice. only after that will the nuances of different stones start to make a difference.

 

[kayman67]

First buy really depends on if he wants to start building around most demanding or not.

 

[Juan]

I'm not quite sure I follow? I dont mind getting better stones with a higher learning curve but better possible result. I would be hesitant on damaging the stones as I'm learning to use them. As for budget I'd like to stay under $100 per stone and would likely start with 3.

 

[PappaG]

You have a huge amount of options if you are willing to spend up to $100 per stone. Another great starter set would be a cerax 320, 1000 and Rika 5000.

 

[kayman67]

Your most demanding scenario would be razors. This is something to consider if you want them to perform with as little effort as possible. And you also want to buy some stones that are as popular as possible to be able to find specific information fast and easy.

 

[Juan]

You have a huge amount of options if you are willing to spend up to $100 per stone. Another great starter set would be a cerax 320, 1000 and Rika 5000.

I will look into these

 

[Juan]

Your most demanding scenario would be razors. This is something to consider if you want them to perform with as little effort as possible. And you also want to buy some stones that are as popular as possible to be able to find specific information fast and easy.

Do you have any experience in sharpening razors? Would a synthetic have a difference over natural?

 

[Michi]

To start cheaply, King KDS 1000/6000 is the standard recommendation. That stone works well up to a hardness of HRC 62. (Requires ten minutes of soaking.)

If you want something fancier, Suehiro Cerax 1000 and Suehiro Rika 5000 are great, but also require soaking for ten minutes. They can handle any hardness, and provide very good feel/feedback.

Shapton Pro 1000 and 5000 are great, too, and are splash and go (don't require soaking). They also handle any hardness. The feel isn't quite as nice as with the Suehiro stones (but not bad, by any means).

A 320 stone is necessary only if you have chips that you need to repair, or if you have extremely dull knives. If you do, chances are that you'll use the 320 stone only once and never again. For normal use and re-sharpening, a 1000 stone and a finishing stone in the 3000–6000 range are all you need.

 

[Juan]

To start cheaply, King KDS 1000/6000 is the standard recommendation. That stone works well up to a hardness of HRC 62. (Requires ten minutes of soaking.)

If you want something fancier, Suehiro Cerax 1000 and Suehiro Rika 5000 are great, but also require soaking for ten minutes. They can handle any hardness, and provide very good feel/feedback.

Shapton Pro 1000 and 5000 are great, too, and are splash and go (don't require soaking). They also handle any hardness. The feel isn't quite as nice as with the Suehiro stones (but not bad, by any means).

A 320 stone is necessary only if you have chips that you need to repair, or if you have extremely dull knives. If you do, chances are that you'll use the 320 stone only once and never again. For normal use and re-sharpening, a 1000 stone and a finishing stone in the 3000–6000 range are all you need.

Thank you Michi,

The use case of a 320 for me is there, alot of the old razors I've passed on recently had chips or worn unevenly but could be repaired. Also I will admit my kitchen knives have some small damage and the set my wife and kid use could use some attention.

 

[kayman67]

Do you have any experience in sharpening razors? Would a synthetic have a difference over natural?

Yes. I have/had pretty much all the popular series and some extras, synthetics and naturals.
It really depends on what natural you already have. And the way you go about sharpening razors.
The synthetics have a good crowd in their corner. But even natural enthusiasts would rather use a synthetic for some parts (repairs, bevel set, pre finish progression).
Then again, if you finish everything on a strop progression with abrasives, the stones only need to be adequate and you might work a bit more to overcome this, but doable.

 

[kayman67]

Thank you Michi,

The use case of a 320 for me is there, alot of the old razors I've passed on recently had chips or worn unevenly but could be repaired. Also I will admit my kitchen knives have some small damage and the set my wife and kid use could use some attention.

For razors you really have to consider what needs to be done and how a particular stone will do that. Grit alone is not enough to determine how it will perform. For example, while Chosera 1000 is great for razors, Shapton Pro 1000 is a really poor choice by comparison. In fact they can't compare. I would say it might not even qualify as adequate.

This is why razors were the more demanding scenario and I started picking stones considering them first.

 

[Knife2meatu]

King KDS 1000/6000 is the standard recommendation. That stone works well up to a hardness of HRC 62.

This seems dubious to me, based on both theory and experience.

To make sure, before posting this I grabbed a my only blue steel cored knife -- not sure if blue 1 or 2, I think 1 -- cut off the apex with a single swipe on my permasoaked King 1k/6k -- ultra light pressure -- after a single knifebreading swipe there was a visible flat on the edge and of course was instantly rendered unable to either push cut or cleanly slice newsprint. I purposefully used only the 6k side, permasoaked mind you, and promptly reground the edge bevel and got it back to sharp in a couple of minutes.

Just to make extra sure, I re-checked the hardness with a Tsubosan 65 HRC test file and the calibrated file skates on the core steel. So let's say 65 HRC, give or take.

Do with that information what you will.

 

[inferno]

flattening stone; atoma
c: naniwa pro 800/1k/glass1k/shap pro 2k
m: glass 3k/4k
f: glass 8k hc/glass 10k hr/pro 12k/naniwa ss 12k

personally i would go pro800 or glass1k, then 3k, then ss 12k.

 

[Michi]

Just to make extra sure, I re-checked the hardness with a Tsubosan 65 HRC test file and the calibrated file skates on the core steel. So let's say 65 HRC, give or take.

Thanks for that check. I've been relying on recommendations I read in various places to avoid the King KDS at > 62 HRC. If it holds up to something at HRC 65, that's even better, and I stand corrected!

Do you know whether the 1000 side will handle something as hard as HRC 65 as well? I remember someone mentioning that the 1000 side dishes out too quickly on hard steels.

 

[Knife2meatu]

@Michi : The 1k side works very nicely on the same knife, I find. The hard core steel doesn't cause fast wear; quite the contrary: it's the soft cladding which raises mud very fast. Nice, dark, even, easy contrast. In either case, it's been my experience that the Cerax is pretty close to the King, as wear rate goes.

6k side actually loads quite a lot when sharpening just the hard core steel -- nothing a slurry doesn't solve -- acts a lot like a Super Stone, come to think of it. Feedback is very nice indeed. Yields a higher polish on hard steel than on other things I rub across it. I think this may be true in general: higher hardness results in higher polish, from a given stone.

I would say Cerax and 5k Suehiro "rika" definitely perform better with stainless steel, however.

I think it is alloy and carbide content, and abrasion resistance, more so than just high HRC, which give the King a hard time.

 

[kayman67]

Thanks for that check. I've been relying on recommendations I read in various places to avoid the King KDS at > 62 HRC. If it holds up to something at HRC 65, that's even better, and I stand corrected!

Do you know whether the 1000 side will handle something as hard as HRC 65 as well? I remember someone mentioning that the 1000 side dishes out too quickly on hard steels.

HRC doesn't tell the story that well. Let's just say that CPM REX 121 is worlds apart harder to sharpen compared to something like ZDP 189, same HRC.
King can cut even very demanding alloys, probably one of the very few that would, but it will be a slow process.

 

[inferno]

Thanks for that check. I've been relying on recommendations I read in various places to avoid the King KDS at > 62 HRC. If it holds up to something at HRC 65, that's even better, and I stand corrected!

Do you know whether the 1000 side will handle something as hard as HRC 65 as well? I remember someone mentioning that the 1000 side dishes out too quickly on hard steels.

the hrc doesn't really mean anything. aluminum oxide and silicon carbide that is used in pretty much all stones are much much harder than the steel it abrades.

what it is not though, is; much harder than the carbides used in high alloyed stainless/tool/hss/powder steel.

These are vanadium, tungsten, niobium, molybdenum carbides and so on. even some types of chromium carbides are very very close in hardness to aluminum oxide.

when the vanadium/tungsten content goes above lets say 2-3% or so and the steel has a high carbon content. then it becomes very hard for most crap stones to abrade.

and then its mostly about the shape of the actual abrasives inside the stones. some are shaped like microscopic discs or cones or wedges or whatever, and some are just "round balls" ok maybe 12-20 sided. and a round ball is not gonna abrade anything really well. this is what you pay for with high grade stones. actual engineering.

 

[Michi]

and then its mostly about the shape of the actual abrasives inside the stones

Thank you for the explanation! I live and learn…

 

[Josh Hiett]

Atoma 400 diamond plate to start. You can grind out chips and also use it to flatten other stones as they wear, which is quite important. So that’s two birds with one stone I’m a big fan of the shapton pros, 1500 would be where I would go after the atoma, and you can use it to set bevels on your razors, that’s what I use. From here, for kitchen knives, you could just strop with a leather paddle with some green chrome and cut toilet paper all day. For the razors a Belgian coticule is a no fus way to finish. All these stones are like 50$usd and they work especially just starting out sharpening

 

[ian]

I'm not quite sure I follow? I dont mind getting better stones with a higher learning curve but better possible result. I would be hesitant on damaging the stones as I'm learning to use them. As for budget I'd like to stay under $100 per stone and would likely start with 3.

Don’t worry about damaging the stones, unless you plan to drop them. It’s pretty hard to screw up a stone as long as you follow the care instructions. (E.g. if someone says “don’t immerse in water”, believe them, and if they say “dry the stone slowly wrapped in a wet towel”, do that.)

 

[Knife2meatu]

I remember when I first got my first King combination and it would bum me out whenever I gouged or snowplowed the stone.

I now regard each such little scar as another lesson in keeping a consistent angle and controlling pressure.

 

[PappaG]

Yeah that King 6000 is easy to gouge if you are not careful as a beginner.

 

[Knife2meatu]

Yeah that King 6000 is easy to gouge if you are not careful as a beginner.

Indeed. But now that I don't gouge or snowplow anymore, I think it's a very nice stone. In fact, I probably prefer it over the Arashiyama 6k and Shapton 5k -- for knives anyway; plane irons and chisels I'd probably go with the Shapton.

 

[ian]

Note to OP: if you gouge or snowplow your stone as discussed above, you can fix it no problem when you flatten it. And most of the time, you don't even need to bother. These are not big issues.