looking to get started but confused

[Migraine]

I started with a King 1000/6000 then upgraded to a Shapton Glass 320, JNS 1000 and JNS 6000. Have since added a couple of naturals (an aizu and a finisher) out of want rather than need. It's a set I'm extremely happy with.

I still sharpen my mum's knife on the King when I go over there and it's a perfectly good stone, but if you know you want to sharpen and you have the kind of budget you do I'd skip the 'cheap stone' starter step.

I wouldn't worry about damaging nice stones when you start sharpening. Unless you're doing something really wild I can't see how you'd cause any significant problems.

 

[kayman67]

Atoma 400 diamond plate to start. You can grind out chips and also use it to flatten other stones as they wear, which is quite important. So that’s two birds with one stone I’m a big fan of the shapton pros, 1500 would be where I would go after the atoma, and you can use it to set bevels on your razors, that’s what I use. From here, for kitchen knives, you could just strop with a leather paddle with some green chrome and cut toilet paper all day. For the razors a Belgian coticule is a no fus way to finish. All these stones are like 50$usd and they work especially just starting out sharpening

You, sir, might be the first person I (kinda) know saying any coticule will be pretty much ridiculous easy to use.

 

[inferno]

Thank you for the explanation! I live and learn…

here is a chart of hardness for different carbides in steel and also SiC and Al-Ox there on the bottom. CBN and diamond and boron carbide will come in at about 5-10k on this hardness scale.
Martensite=hardened steel

from larrins site.

 

[Nemo]

Is there evidence that very hard abrasives (diamond, cbn) will cut hard carbides or is this just assumed?

It would make sense to me if this did occur as diamond loaded stropping does seem to improve sharpness in highly alloyed steels. Having said that, in science, it's case of "experimental data or it didn't happen".

 

[inferno]

I'd say its unlikely that any carbides are being cut. But I guess it could theoretically happen. The carbides always reside in the grain boundaries between the grains. Secondly they are very small,
and thirdly the matrix that surrounds them and keeps them in place is comparatively soft and weak.

What I think is happening is that the steel around the carbides gets abraded away since its so soft and then there is nothing keeping that carbide in place and it gets dislodged with the rest of the steel. But I have a feeling it will not leave any kind of "hole" just because it gets dislodged.

you can see micrographs here
https://knifesteelnerds.com/2019/05/26/new-micrographs-of-42-knife-steels/
https://knifesteelnerds.com/2018/10/01/super-steels-vs-regular-knife-steels/

Stropping on diamonds and cbn may very well improve improve sharpness. But it could be so that you could have used any other stropping compund (like alox) and you would have gotten the same sharpness but it just would have taken longer to get there.

If you look at alox in the chart you see it ranges from 1500-2k hv on that scale and chrominum carbide from 13-1700-ish so in theory if you have the softest alox and the hardest CrC then there would theoretically not be possible to sharpen that steel right. But you can still sharpen it somehow. The martensite matrix is softer for once. I feel its mostly a matter of time/pressure and so on. Sooner or later you will get it sharper.

Also you can strop even 65hrc knives on a pair of jeans/cardboard/leather. how does that work?
Coticules contain the garnet abrasives and those are supposedly softer than alox, yet you can still sharpen almost anything on them. They are just very slow with high carbide steel.

I'd say if it works, keep doing it! Easy as that.

I have always heard d2 family steel is too coarse to put a "good edge" on. Yet I managed to put a 12k (shappro) edge on mine and it got so sharp it felt dangerous. If it works it works.

 

[Juan]

wow, loads of great information. thank you everyone, I have been reading all the comments while at work (IT life has been rough these last couple of weeks) anyhow after some homework and conversation, I've narrowed down my focus to the followings stones:
Atoma 140x, Beston 500x, Bester 1200x, Suehiro Rika 5k finishing on felt with diamond spray this should cover my knives as for the razors I will continue from the 5k to a shapton pro 8k then 10k shapton glass finished with chromium oxide on leather. this is how my razors were sharpened before and I loved how they performed.

I just got the kids hospital bill for his surgery and wanted to pay it ASAP so I used my stone stash for it, I think its good anyway because it will give me more time to shop and find the best prices, read and watch more content. i will also add everyone that's commented so far, you guys rock. so much good information and support and not one "go google search it you noob" lol. i love it, it makes me feel confident in asking for support when im stuck

 

[SeattleBen]

Hope your kid recovers quickly.

 

[Carl Kotte]

+1 on [emoji121]️

 

[inferno]

Is there evidence that very hard abrasives (diamond, cbn) will cut hard carbides or is this just assumed?

It would make sense to me if this did occur as diamond loaded stropping does seem to improve sharpness in highly alloyed steels. Having said that, in science, it's case of "experimental data or it didn't happen".

i found some more info on this. it seems like even soft alox will abrade the hard V carbides in s30v for example.
both these 2 below was sharpened/stropped on alox.
read todds comments. https://www.bladeforums.com/threads/carbides-and-cutting-edges.1309485/page-3

also found another thread https://bladeforums.com/threads/high-vanadium-carbide-tear-out-questions.1626135/
where everybody swears only a diamond progression on stones/pastes will create a "durable edge" on high V steels. Since only diamond is able to "cut the carbides" otherwise they are being "torn out". i think its BS though.

just look here https://scienceofsharp.com/2015/03/01/the-diamond-plate-progression/ here you can see that the dmt 325 plate created a sharper result than all the other finer plates. so...

also check out "the pasted strop" SEM micrographs. no 3/4 is with different diamond pastes.
https://scienceofsharp.com/2015/02/09/the-pasted-strop-part-1/
https://scienceofsharp.com/2015/02/22/the-pasted-strop-part-2/
https://scienceofsharp.com/2015/03/31/the-pasted-strop-part-3/
https://scienceofsharp.com/2016/05/29/the-pasted-strop-part-4/

this one was interesting too. https://scienceofsharp.com/2015/10/20/sharpening-with-the-king-1k6k-combination-stone/

so much good info here https://scienceofsharp.com/

 

[inferno]

Atoma 140x, Beston 500x, Bester 1200x, Suehiro Rika 5k finishing on felt with diamond spray this should cover my knives as for the razors I will continue from the 5k to a shapton pro 8k then 10k shapton glass finished with chromium oxide on leather. this is how my razors were sharpened before and I loved how they performed.

you can probably skip the shapton 8k and 10k after the 5k, and instead only get the pro 12k. its fast enough for that. naniwa SS12k is also an alternative. a very good one. both the 12ks are kinda inexpensive comparatively.

many people in the razor community gets hung up on a progression. like 1-2-4-8-finisher-natural finisher. but to be honest you only really need a 1-2k, a mid grit 4-6k, and a finisher like the 12k. done. you could do it all on a 1k and 12k too it just takes a bit longer.

One thing i think is important for razors is that the stones release as little abrasive as possible (so they stay flat as long as possible), dont need soaking due to eventual warping/swelling etc. but thats just me.

 

[kayman67]

If he's comfortable with one progression, changing it might not work. Not that the results won't be OK, it's just perception.
This being said, I think from 5k to Glass HC 8k and then just the usual finish, would work just like it does now. Even Pro 8k is adequate, but requires more work after and I guess this is why that 10k feels at home in the progression. It makes everything easier.

Bester 1200 might be not as expected, but maybe this was researched already.

As a side note, there is a huge debate around carbides. People do test things as good as they can and try to give (definitive) answers based on what happens.

 

[kayman67]

wow, loads of great information. thank you everyone, I have been reading all the comments while at work (IT life has been rough these last couple of weeks) anyhow after some homework and conversation, I've narrowed down my focus to the followings stones:
Atoma 140x, Beston 500x, Bester 1200x, Suehiro Rika 5k finishing on felt with diamond spray this should cover my knives as for the razors I will continue from the 5k to a shapton pro 8k then 10k shapton glass finished with chromium oxide on leather. this is how my razors were sharpened before and I loved how they performed.

I just got the kids hospital bill for his surgery and wanted to pay it ASAP so I used my stone stash for it, I think its good anyway because it will give me more time to shop and find the best prices, read and watch more content. i will also add everyone that's commented so far, you guys rock. so much good information and support and not one "go google search it you noob" lol. i love it, it makes me feel confident in asking for support when im stuck

I'm sorry you had trouble . I hope all is well!

 

[inferno]

If he's comfortable with one progression, changing it might not work. Not that the results won't be OK, it's just perception.
This being said, I think from 5k to Glass HC 8k and then just the usual finish, would work just like it does now. Even Pro 8k is adequate, but requires more work after and I guess this is why that 10k feels at home in the progression. It makes everything easier.

Bester 1200 might be not as expected, but maybe this was researched already.

As a side note, there is a huge debate around carbides. People do test things as good as they can and try to give (definitive) answers based on what happens.

yeah i guess what i meant was; one needs a lot fewer stones than one might initially think to get the job done. I have taken knives straight off the shappro 1k to the 12k. no problem at all really.

if i had 0 stones and wanted a working kit for both knives and razors on a budget i would not resort to more cheaper stones, i would resort to fewer quality stones. but thats just me.

i mean Atoma 140x, Beston 500x, Bester 1200x, Suehiro Rika 5k, shapton pro 8k, 10k shapton glass
thats 6 stones.

atoma140 85€
beston 500 46$ (dollars)
bester 1200 48€
rika 5k 55€
pro8k 79€
glass 10k 120€

total: 433€

and all those stones will do exactly the same as these below for half the price, just a little slower.

glass 500 DoubleThick 65€
glass 3k/4k 60/55€
pro12k 85€
1 pack A4 size sandpaper p80-p180 10€
(optional: eze-lap250 plate 65€)

total: 210€

 

[kayman67]

I used to do 1-10k jumps alot.
If it works for something, why not. I'm not set in stone

 

[inferno]

i did the 1-12k (both shappro) on some blue 2 knife i think. just to see if it would work. and it did. i was worried i had to spend hours on it but it took me like 3-5 minutes longer than if i would have had intermediates. i think its because the shappro 12k is actually a very aggressive and fast stone (the 8k is too) for its grit.

 

[inferno]

remember like 100 years ago the barbers only had one single stone to do everything. cotis/eschers/swatys and so on. and it worked just fine. I'm willing to bet you actually only need a 12k for razors. the rest is just luxury.

 

[kayman67]

It's a bit of many things. And it's a good thing we have them.

 

[Juan]

Hope your kid recovers quickly.

thanks, everything is well. a few years ago he fell while dog sitting for our neighbors and got a cut in his ear, over time it formed a keloid which was growing up until this past year. with him starting high school he wanted it removed if possible before the start of the school year. needless to say, he is doing well and will have minimal scarring but the cost of the surgery was not covered by the insurance company because it was deemed cosmetic.

 

[Juan]

i did the 1-12k (both shappro) on some blue 2 knife i think. just to see if it would work. and it did. i was worried i had to spend hours on it but it took me like 3-5 minutes longer than if i would have had intermediates. i think its because the shappro 12k is actually a very aggressive and fast stone (the 8k is too) for its grit.

i am ok with this approach of skipping the 8k for now, should i feel the need for it later i can always get one then.

 

[MrHiggins]

thanks, everything is well. a few years ago he fell while dog sitting for our neighbors and got a cut in his ear, over time it formed a keloid which was growing up until this past year. with him starting high school he wanted it removed if possible before the start of the school year. needless to say, he is doing well and will have minimal scarring but the cost of the surgery was not covered by the insurance company because it was deemed cosmetic.

You did it wrong. You shoulda spent your money on great stones, sharpened up a knife (270 gyuto, preferably), and taken it to your kid's ear instead of letting some "sergeon" get all the glory. It coulda been win-win, but you botched it. Too bad.

 

[Juan]

You did it wrong. You shoulda spent your money on great stones, sharpened up a knife (270 gyuto, preferably), and taken it to your kid's ear instead of letting some "sergeon" get all the glory. It coulda been win-win, but you botched it. Too bad.

you know what................you're absolutely right lol. hindsight is always 20/20 what was i thinking

 

[kayman67]

just look here https://scienceofsharp.com/2015/03/01/the-diamond-plate-progression/ here you can see that the dmt 325 plate created a sharper result than all the other finer plates. so...

This bugged me some.
I have worked with CPM REX 121 HRC 69. This would be the most demanding scenario I guess. And even stones with some good rep for problematic alloys did very little, if anything. Getting a bevel? I was naive enough even to go ahead and try. But diamond plates did, albeit slow themselves. And CBN refined those edges quote nicely to the point of very easy to cut wet/dry paper towels and durable edges. And the progression improvement was there. These edges were able to hold for a really really long time.