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I sharpen all my folders (s90v, s30v, s45v, k390, magnacut, etc), to 1500 on venev diamond. going much past that usually feels like a waste in my experience
MagnaCut passaround [LIVE]
- Thread starter mengwong
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Just received the magna cut pass around. Beautiful knife and I assume it has laser potential, but not now, too dull. I will sharpen with either some older Norton water stones or Shapton's. Not sure what the deal is with the tip but it looks like it was a bit bent at one point. So far I tried cutting half an onion. Did it but it should have been easier. More reports to come. Will try some meat before I sharpen. Who gets it next?
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As of today, I have decided not to try to sharpen. I don't have any diamond stones and I fear I might just make it duller rather than sharper. After using it for the last few days on a variety of kitchen task, I would say that it cuts well, but I would either like it sharper or thinner behind the edge. I like the handle without a ferrule, and it is very large and fits my big mitts well. I have trimmer meat, cut onions, and mushrooms, and it was fine but its initial cut tended not to bite into softer foods. tI will cut a soft bread bun without the need for a serrated bread knife. With a variety of knives for a variety of task, I still end up most times using the same knife for all the cutting tasks for a meal. I like this knife, but wonder about the possible premium price.
I'm in no way offended by this statement, but $360 U.S, delivered is...probably at least 25% lower than the nearest alternative in MagnaCut. Especially for a hand finished blade. Hobbyists excluded.
This certainly lines up with what I've seen elsewhere on the market. Some makers who are already at a higher price point may have a small percent premium for MagnaCut vs other steels but not in absolute terms.
Matt, I don't mean to pry too much (feel free to answer as much or little as you like) but I'm curious - how much of the cost premium is the steel itself vs. abrasives vs. labor costs?
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I think you nailed a few points why I was interested in trying it as well... One does it need thinning? I think that's is one of the most important or controversial questions, because without say 4 versions of the same knife with different thickness, I think it's very hard to answer. How easy it is to sharpen. I have diamond stones, but it's def something I fear to try, not because it won't work, but because I may ruin it, heh
Don’t worry about ruining it, we can fix it. Even the tip can bend back, or just be deleted
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I feel like that question is not fair on a few levels. For once, we rarely pay for knives the cost of labor, steel, materials... Most of it tied to person's 'brand', perceived value, perceived performance, etc... so even if Matt's cost is $200 and he is asking for $360, it makes no difference between a different maker's cost maybe same, but because their perceived brand and value are lower, they can sell for $250 or higher, they can ask $1000. The perceived value obv has to do with resale value, exclusivity, demand, how busy maker is, etc etc etc
I had a wonderful DT knife that I bought from him directly. I never used it, but wanted to support the maker. 2 years later, I had a hard to sell knife that I wanted to sell, and it wouldnt sell, but I paired it with a DT and someone bought it. To me (and obv others) it means that DT has a great resale value, so if we're using this example, DT may have exactly the same cost of material and steel in it, and labor , same same amount of hrs, but because his brand (and completely justified) is much more well known, he can ask for a lot more $ for it. And, he will get it, because anyone can sell his knife for same $ fairly easily.
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Dremel vs MagnaCut: Showdown 2023, Madison Square Garden
There are a ton of variables. Labour is a pretty broad set of tasks too. I tend not to measure it that way.
The PM steels tend to be very expensive, about 4x-7x the price from that an equivalent piece of say 52100 or AEB-L, and are much harder to grind, easily double or triple for something like CPM-D2 or MagnaCut, more than that for Z-Wear, and more still for M4...(S90V and 10V frankly scare me). Plus they're harder to sharpen. Another variable is whether the knife was made as part of a batch or a one off. It's amazing how much time you save working in batches.
I really try not to think about my labour costs that much, but some of the worst "hourlys" I've had doing this, would have been on my most expensive customs. There's a lot more involved with them, and mistakes happen, and those don't/can't get downloaded to you guys. Not to mention times, especially when I was newer to this, where I would totally underestimate the work involved. It happens less so these days, but when I'm doing something that's new to me, or that I haven't done in a while, it's easy to lowball it.
Something that doesn't really apply to me, because I work in my garage and basement, is facility costs. In areas where you'd be renting a lot in an industrial park, that would really chew into your bottom line. I suspect this is a big part of the cost of some of the more popular European makers.
Advertising too, and time spent advertising/listing is another myer that you can't really equate nicely into cost per product sold. Not at these volumes at least.
For customs, time spent discussing the build details. I never factor that in, but you know, sometimes it's a few hours over a week. Plus drafting and designing time, which I've gotten way better at, but took much longer early on.
Then finally there's the value of labour and accumulated skill. Forging, forge welding, grinding, sharpening, knowing how to work with each individual steel, and there are marked differences....the differences between white and blue are laughable compared to carbon steels and high alloy/stainlesses. Developing an eye for "straight" and symmetrical. A sense of proportionality and so on. Polishing hamons is a big one too.
I know that's a really long winded way of not giving an answer, but I'm just trying to illustrate the complexity of the situation. A lot of the steps involved just don't occur to people intuitively.
I can say that much of what makes up the value of the priciest brands, tends to be brand related, not material, or labour, the markups look severe to me, but also as far as independent makers are concerned, without knowing the sum total of the expenses they have in order to sustain themselves, judgments are of little value.
I don't know that most makers charge a premium for new steels. I never have, but when steels are new, and production volumes are low, the costs tend to be higher just from the mills. For instance, when I first started using MagnaCut, so less than a year ago now, perhaps 8 months, it was $75/linear foot for 2"x3/32 wide stock. The price has come down to around 60$, which is really nice, (though that still doesn't factor in taxes and delivery costs) and that puts it within about $10 of the other CPM steels. I can't imagine what is was 2 years ago when it came out. Apex Ultra is over 3x the price of 52100 right now too.
Hey everyone,
I had the knife after ethompson and before Trouthead, and I'm late reporting back to the thread (sorry!).
First, I'd like to thank @mengwong for letting folks try out this cool knife with its cool steel. I'd also like to thank @MSicardCutlery for the thoughts/commentary provided in this thread -- it's been cool to read the maker's thoughts.
Condition:
The knife came to me in good shape. I could see evidence of both the recent thinning and the tip area mentioned by other users in this thread. There were also some small blemishes on the butt of the handle.
Use:
I used the knife in our home kitchen to prepare fruit/veg snacks/meals for my family. I cut everyday stuff like apples, carrots, onions, bananas, leafy greens, peppers, etc.
Impressions:
I found the knife to be light and nimble. I could see how a knife in this size range and steel could be an awesome leave-on-the-counter type of knife. It's light, quick, easy to use, tough, very stain resistant, etc. Someone earlier in the thread (Malcolm Johnson?) mentioned that moving an index finger to the spine improved performance for them. I found this to be true as well. Not sure exactly what that says about the profile and my cutting mechanics, but it was just something I noticed. The knife did best for me in thinner or softer ingredients (think kale, bananas), and it hung up a bit mid-cut in thicker or denser produce like sweet potato, onion, or apple. I did experience a bit of steering in denser ingredients.
Due to others reporting difficulty in sharpening this knife, I was hesitant to throw too much sharpening effort at it. The knife arrived with what I thought to be a serviceable edge, and I didn't want to mess up the knife for others after me in the PA. That said, I did attempt a touch up. Others reported success with BBW stones, so I started there. I probably spent 5 min, and didn't notice much of a difference afterward. There is a DT quote on the interwebs about how you can sharpen this steel with SG stones, so I tried SG3K next. The experience and results here were much the same as with the BBW. The knife felt marginally sharper to my fingerpads after this, but I couldn't tell a difference on various papers (thin phonebook type paper, paper towels) or in food. Both before and after my attempts at sharpening, the knife would cut thin phonebook-type paper easily, and it would slice paper towel something like 1/5 or 1/6 attempts.
Final thoughts:
My overall impressions of the knife are good. I can see the appeal of a knife this size in this steel. I think Matt's offerings in Magnacut are probably good value for money, and it's really cool to see a maker involved with the community like this (offering thoughts, commentary, advice, etc.). I found this knife to be very practical and functional without being fussy. I know we are all enamored with the steel here, but I really liked the handle on this knife too -- very comfy, feels very nice in the hand. You are on to something with this handle, Matt. The knife did struggle in dense produce for me, so I wonder if more thinning behind the edge might be in order. I'll also echo what others have said about sharpening this steel: I would absolutely buy diamond stones if I owned a knife in Magnacut.
Will post some pics later in the thread.
Thanks, mengwong!
I had the knife after ethompson and before Trouthead, and I'm late reporting back to the thread (sorry!).
First, I'd like to thank @mengwong for letting folks try out this cool knife with its cool steel. I'd also like to thank @MSicardCutlery for the thoughts/commentary provided in this thread -- it's been cool to read the maker's thoughts.
Condition:
The knife came to me in good shape. I could see evidence of both the recent thinning and the tip area mentioned by other users in this thread. There were also some small blemishes on the butt of the handle.
Use:
I used the knife in our home kitchen to prepare fruit/veg snacks/meals for my family. I cut everyday stuff like apples, carrots, onions, bananas, leafy greens, peppers, etc.
Impressions:
I found the knife to be light and nimble. I could see how a knife in this size range and steel could be an awesome leave-on-the-counter type of knife. It's light, quick, easy to use, tough, very stain resistant, etc. Someone earlier in the thread (Malcolm Johnson?) mentioned that moving an index finger to the spine improved performance for them. I found this to be true as well. Not sure exactly what that says about the profile and my cutting mechanics, but it was just something I noticed. The knife did best for me in thinner or softer ingredients (think kale, bananas), and it hung up a bit mid-cut in thicker or denser produce like sweet potato, onion, or apple. I did experience a bit of steering in denser ingredients.
Due to others reporting difficulty in sharpening this knife, I was hesitant to throw too much sharpening effort at it. The knife arrived with what I thought to be a serviceable edge, and I didn't want to mess up the knife for others after me in the PA. That said, I did attempt a touch up. Others reported success with BBW stones, so I started there. I probably spent 5 min, and didn't notice much of a difference afterward. There is a DT quote on the interwebs about how you can sharpen this steel with SG stones, so I tried SG3K next. The experience and results here were much the same as with the BBW. The knife felt marginally sharper to my fingerpads after this, but I couldn't tell a difference on various papers (thin phonebook type paper, paper towels) or in food. Both before and after my attempts at sharpening, the knife would cut thin phonebook-type paper easily, and it would slice paper towel something like 1/5 or 1/6 attempts.
Final thoughts:
My overall impressions of the knife are good. I can see the appeal of a knife this size in this steel. I think Matt's offerings in Magnacut are probably good value for money, and it's really cool to see a maker involved with the community like this (offering thoughts, commentary, advice, etc.). I found this knife to be very practical and functional without being fussy. I know we are all enamored with the steel here, but I really liked the handle on this knife too -- very comfy, feels very nice in the hand. You are on to something with this handle, Matt. The knife did struggle in dense produce for me, so I wonder if more thinning behind the edge might be in order. I'll also echo what others have said about sharpening this steel: I would absolutely buy diamond stones if I owned a knife in Magnacut.
Will post some pics later in the thread.
Thanks, mengwong!
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Nice include man...
This should be a Pinned Thread for First Time Custom Buyers!
Hi everyone! Knife arrived safe and sound from @Trouthead last night. I'll try to touch up the edge and get some food underneath of it tonight!
CPM steels like MagnaCut are about five times as expensive as AEB-L (equivalent sized) and in the ballpark of three times as expensive as many common forging steels like 80CrV2 plus the maker has to spend more time and go through more belts doing the grinding. Whether it is worth it to you is an entirely personal question but the prices are very reasonable for CPM steels.
Hi everyone, here’s my thoughts on this fun little blade. First, thanks to @mengwong for making this pass around possible and @MSicardCutlery for dealing with the original shaping of this steel! Holy smokes, this stuff is tough.
As @Trouthead mentioned, the edge was ready for a touch up. I approached cautiously after reading about all the fun everyone was having flattening their stones
. I also feel like with the loss of a little initial height, the bevel is starting to wedge a bit and could stand to be pushed a bit higher. I decided to avoid the lower grits and turned to a bbw. Probably spent about 15 minutes in total and failed to raise a burr… It did seem like I made some progress because it could now slice a little bit in to paper towel. Without diamond stones in my arsenal I considered this a success and went over to the board.
Over the next few days I cut sweet potatoes, onions, garlic, peppers, parsley, and sliced some cooked steak. My impressions of the knife improved the more I used it. At first the wedging at the beginning of a cut turned me off. But with some technique adjustment and starting push cuts closer to the tip than my normal, the performance improved. The blade has a nice stiffness despite being on the thinner side. Food release was decent. Decent amount of convexity worked into this thin blade. Heavier stuff like sweet potatoes rarely stuck when cubing, wet onions did have a tendency to climb up the blade (as they do with most knives). I will say I wish I had more appropriate stones when I got to the parsley. That was on day 6 after my initial sharpening (sharpening used loosely here) and I ended up grabbing a helper knife about halfway through. That brought me to my final conclusion.
I really like carbon knives and for more than just the sharpness and edge retention. Sharpening, patina, jnat polishing - to me that stuff takes it from a knife purchase to a hobby. I also think having a stainless knife or two can be really convenient. This steel would be an awesome choice to fill that stainless spot, but would require having some diamond stones to maintain. I liked having this knife out throughout cooking without worrying about it sitting idle too long or having to wash it before sitting down to eat. It was fun to try out the steel and fun to try some of @MSicardCutlery’s work. Thanks again @mengwong and @sansho I’ll send a dm to get this moving along.
As @Trouthead mentioned, the edge was ready for a touch up. I approached cautiously after reading about all the fun everyone was having flattening their stones
. I also feel like with the loss of a little initial height, the bevel is starting to wedge a bit and could stand to be pushed a bit higher. I decided to avoid the lower grits and turned to a bbw. Probably spent about 15 minutes in total and failed to raise a burr… It did seem like I made some progress because it could now slice a little bit in to paper towel. Without diamond stones in my arsenal I considered this a success and went over to the board.Over the next few days I cut sweet potatoes, onions, garlic, peppers, parsley, and sliced some cooked steak. My impressions of the knife improved the more I used it. At first the wedging at the beginning of a cut turned me off. But with some technique adjustment and starting push cuts closer to the tip than my normal, the performance improved. The blade has a nice stiffness despite being on the thinner side. Food release was decent. Decent amount of convexity worked into this thin blade. Heavier stuff like sweet potatoes rarely stuck when cubing, wet onions did have a tendency to climb up the blade (as they do with most knives). I will say I wish I had more appropriate stones when I got to the parsley. That was on day 6 after my initial sharpening (sharpening used loosely here) and I ended up grabbing a helper knife about halfway through. That brought me to my final conclusion.
I really like carbon knives and for more than just the sharpness and edge retention. Sharpening, patina, jnat polishing - to me that stuff takes it from a knife purchase to a hobby. I also think having a stainless knife or two can be really convenient. This steel would be an awesome choice to fill that stainless spot, but would require having some diamond stones to maintain. I liked having this knife out throughout cooking without worrying about it sitting idle too long or having to wash it before sitting down to eat. It was fun to try out the steel and fun to try some of @MSicardCutlery’s work. Thanks again @mengwong and @sansho I’ll send a dm to get this moving along.
Updated sequence with minor edits. Please check downthread as this may not be the latest. (Posts become immutable after a while.)
SolidSnake03
deltaplex
Nagakin
mrmoves92
blokey
Delat
superworrier
Malcolm Johnson
timebard
ethompson
ew_ut
Trouthead
HomeChef
@sansho
@Hz_zzzzzz next player would be grateful if you could please sharpen with supreme flair and panache
@jsph
@MSicardCutlery
@mengwong
SolidSnake03deltaplexNagakinmrmoves92blokeyDelatsuperworrierMalcolm Johnsontimebardethompsonew_utTroutheadHomeChef@sansho@Hz_zzzzzz next player would be grateful if you could please sharpen with supreme flair and panache@jsph@MSicardCutlery@mengwong
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just got the knife. opened it up, looks good. not very sharp though. slices printer paper, but not cleanly.
i'll see if i can't get it hair popping. got diamond stones and diamond loaded strop. i suck at sharpening, so i'm really curious to see if it's going to be more challenging than what i'm used to.
i'll see if i can't get it hair popping. got diamond stones and diamond loaded strop. i suck at sharpening, so i'm really curious to see if it's going to be more challenging than what i'm used to.
hey @ethompson what'd you actually thin it with? i read your post, but it wasn't clear to me.
Nanohone’s resin diamond stones ended up doing most of the work.
If you’re into polishing you can try it on that before the actual knife.
You rub it for good luck before sharpening
Meng asked me to include it as a way of testing the steel on stones without putting the blade on them.
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shiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiit, that's genius
the coupon has a bend in it, so i only 'polished' the two distal sides (put it concave down on the stone). the coarser side of an india combo def abraded it.
i sharpened the knife with 1k BBB vitrified ceramic diamond and 6k JKI resinoid diamond. in terms of material removal rate, it didn't seem much different than other steels i'm used to. i got a burr pretty easily. didn't feel glassy. i put a phat/shallow primary bevel on it (~12°, i'd guess) hoping to put the toughness to the test, but i failed to get it very sharp for some reason. very disappointing. not sure what to make of that. clearly it's my fault, but i'm wondering how much the steel contributed to this result considering the equipment and apparent ease of abrasion.
i'll try again at the same angle when the house is free of distractions. tbh, i think i need to concentrate 110% to get decent results when sharpening.
i sharpened the knife with 1k BBB vitrified ceramic diamond and 6k JKI resinoid diamond. in terms of material removal rate, it didn't seem much different than other steels i'm used to. i got a burr pretty easily. didn't feel glassy. i put a phat/shallow primary bevel on it (~12°, i'd guess) hoping to put the toughness to the test, but i failed to get it very sharp for some reason. very disappointing. not sure what to make of that. clearly it's my fault, but i'm wondering how much the steel contributed to this result considering the equipment and apparent ease of abrasion.
i'll try again at the same angle when the house is free of distractions. tbh, i think i need to concentrate 110% to get decent results when sharpening.
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@MSicardCutlery, is the coupon a decent representation of the raw stock as-received? i mean i see it has a colorful oxide film on it, so i'm assuming the 'HT' is not as-received, but aside from that.. is the geometry and surface finish original? jw.
did that come off of the handle part?
did that come off of the handle part?
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Zoom in on the bottom knife near the handle. That's the forge scale finish pretty much as received.
