Mamma mia!

Japanese Knives - by Tokushu Knife
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BurkeCutlery said:
Jon, is there any insight you can offer regarding what the positive qualities are that this less rugged heat treatment offers?
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in this particular case, its what chefs are looking for in Japan... they want better edge retention with the understanding that the cost will be a more brittle knife. However, because this is never their first knife, they have had years to work on technique so as not to have problems with chipping. What is interesting is this... i've tried a lot of blue #1 knives and these are the least chippy i have tried. Also, its worth noting that the HT in the debas will be slightly softer than the usuba and yanagiba in the same line.

As a side note, sara is saying this in the background as i type:
"The chefs using this in japan dont feel like its chippy, so chippy is really more of a skill thing than a knife thin. They know their steel well and talk to chefs all the time to make sure the heat treatment is producing the results they and the chefs are looking for"

Its true that these particular guys are always talking to chefs using their knives and making sure things are working the way the expect.
 
I can relate to that. Especially for sushi, it's way more important to have a knife that just cuts great than anything else--it's worth babying it when the stakes are that high. Plus, from watching the JKS videos, you can tell the technique they are employing is very precise and demanding. That said, I like that we are focusing here in the US on making knives versatile and friendly without going the German route and selling axes.

I would like to see how those chefs would like a blade in s30v...wild edge taking/holding, requires care, and totally stainless to boot.

I wonder why it is that a propensity for edge chipping does not result in more carbide popout. But then again I am not a metallurgist.

I feel like when Alton Brown asks a question and Debbie Duchon pops up because someone said "Nutritional Anthropologist". Where's Larrin when you need him?
 
BurkeCutlery said:
...I like that we are focusing here in the US on making knives versatile and friendly...

I would like to see how those chefs would like a blade in s30v...wild edge taking/holding, requires care, and totally stainless to boot.

I wonder why it is that a propensity for edge chipping does not result in more carbide popout. But then again I am not a metallurgist.
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I don't feel like my Carters, Heijis, Yoshikanes, etc. are not versatile. All of these blades, as well as many others (even VG10) are "chippy." Not friendly? Tell it to all the people with Tojiros and Shuns, lol.

Some might like it but the bottom line is they use what they use because carbon steel gets bloody sharp. What I'm wondering is whether or not they'd go for AEB-L hardened to 63 hrc, for example.

Edge chipping in this case, has to do with the hardening of the matrix. Carbide pull out has more to do with the size of the carbides or clusters thereof and the amount of matrix around them to hold them in place.

That said, I've been wondering how Larrin is doing, as well.
 
Well, the high dollar, high performance knife steels in the US are focused on the mindset Mr. Tsourkan was suggesting, not excelling at one specific task, like holding a razor edge to the detriment of it's ability ti withstand boneheaded abuse. We want to hack 2x4s and shave with the same knife.
 
BurkeCutlery said:
Well, the high dollar, high performance knife steels in the US are focused on the mindset Mr. Tsourkan was suggesting, not excelling at one specific task, like holding a razor edge to the detriment of it's ability ti withstand boneheaded abuse. We want to hack 2x4s and shave with the same knife.
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and theres nothing wrong with that... its just not what this knife is about
 
Yup. I always thought the two schools can coexist and learn from each other. :thumbsup:
 
Now this is an interesting thread! I keep coming back to it, hoping for an update.
 
I've worked sushi for 5 years, before that 10 years at fish markets and restaurants.

My boss has owned sushi bars for 7 years.

One of our older guys just retired after 20 years making pieces.

Some of the advice I've scrounged up here has totally changed our excitement about knives and work in general.

We all have knives that perform satisfactorily, and agree its 90% finding a tool that can handle the job when you have to power though a shift, but then there is this whole mess of science, tradition, metallurgy, and excellence, and that I don't know jack about, but its really fun to listen to people who are a lot closer to that mess than me. Keep it up!

And now on to the what are you drinking tonight thread LoL.
 
Jon's posts on this thread are among the most relevant of any on the internet for people who use Japanese knives. But he's just scratching the surface of what they're all about structurally, culturally, the metallurgy and intended use. Keep posting, Jon!

FWIW, when he uses the word arrogance, don't confuse it for hubris. He's talking about anyone -innocently and with the best intentions- who thinks they know more/better about a particular knife than the master who made it.
 
i think Jon always post with the best intentions, always good posts and he is always so modest.

keep it up :D :D
 
DK chef said:
i think Jon always post with the best intentions, always good posts and he is always so modest.

keep it up :D :D
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+1 though so does nearly everyone else here, it's what is great. This forum isn't a storefront it's a place for discussion and thought
 
As far as I know these are hand made knives with a hand done in forge heat treat with cooling and tempering by master craftsman. The hardness is not typically tested. Correct me if I am wrong. The point that these hard HRC knives are made this way on purpose is most likely valid. It is also valid that probably most people in US would do better with a less hard knife. I for one really appreciated Marko Tsourkan's comments. I believe he has certainly an expert level of knowledge in this area. After reading Jon's comments I would certainly try to use good technique and maintenance before I resort to a tempering change.

There are a lot of possibilities here and assumptions. And most comes down to just opinions.

David
 
there are less hard knives out there for people to buy though, and in the cases where that is right for them, why not buy one of those knives?
 
JBroida said:
there are less hard knives out there for people to buy...
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It seems to me that maybe 99.99% of all knives made in Japan are less than 62 hrc. So actually, it is hard to find the really hard knives unless you know about a handful of shops here and there. The internet has changed a lot of things in the last few years.
 
JBroida said:
there are less hard knives out there for people to buy though, and in the cases where that is right for them, why not buy one of those knives?
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Because the less hard (cheaper?) knives aren't as pretty? Perhaps folks want 'the best' warts and all, and if that means getting something that could be beyond their needs/capabilities, then that's ok, so long as it's "the best".


You know why Jon, just as well as I do. ;)

Stu.
 
Schtoo said:
Because the less hard (cheaper?) knives aren't as pretty? Perhaps folks want 'the best' warts and all, and if that means getting something that could be beyond their needs/capabilities, then that's ok, so long as it's "the best".


You know why Jon, just as well as I do. ;)

Stu.
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lol
 
Thank to all of you for all the incredible comments. Im hoping many will use the knowledge.

As to the Jons post what I have to say is I am very very sceptical if all of people buying those kinds of knives are pro chefs with right technique. I dont exactly know the percent of those, but how many of them is here?
That is why Im totally not surprised someone like my boss bought one.

I think the chips were 100 [one hundred] percent owners fault.
BUT today I started a little bit on resharpening and found out that in exactly this spot where chipping happened, there is overgrind close to edge, I didnt noticed before, but now when I started working on DMT to get the secbevel flat, its obvious. Also the actual edge bevel was smaller in that spot. I hope to get a picture of it but the weather is bad and dont know if I manage.

Would one sharpening before prevent chipping is pure speculation.
Would proper use by skilled user prevent it? I am 100 percent sure.

And there is another thing bothering me, I cannot help it and not write that.

When I was still enthusiast of japanese chefs and knives I was going around asking sushi chefs if they needed sharpening, free of charge. Even though some of them had knives in very bad condition, they wouldnt go for it.
What about the care for the fish and cell structure?

And maybe its cause my style or quality of sharpening is not what they are used to, but before statement like this check my kasumi thread, I dont know where I could improve on babying my single bevels [apart from better polishing]
I didnt have a child then, and a lot of time, so I was polishing knives for others also, free of charge, just for the joy of it...
Those who eventually took the risk and gave me knives never had problems with chipping, especially on debas.

So what I mean, is I hear all the time about chefs so passionate about cutlery and babying their knives, and something else Im seeing.

Something like this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rwy5hT0nCCQ

or this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qZj0I...layer_embedded

***?
 
couldnt get any better

100_3894.jpg
 
Wow. Definitely an overgrind. Do you have calipers? How much thinner is the edge there?
 
What's the second link Mike? I think it is broken. The first video is loooong . fetching for watch later now :)

wrt to the picture, how many passes on dmt was it? If it was only a few passes I don't feel (just me) that those low spots and over grind on and edge is any serious issue. Although Jon said that these hide knives usually come with a solid edge, but it is also quite traditional for users to do honhatsuke themselves first.
 
here is my take on this very intriguing thread.

knives are knives and they do not need to be judged in the typical way. some knife makers are better than others and because of that, some knives cost more due to supply and demand, materials, maker quality etc, but that is not what we are talking about here. a knife will never chip like that if it wasn't used. let a knife sit in the box and it will look great as long as you have it, but that is not what the knife wants to do. we all enjoy our knives here because we have an intent on using them (a few drawer queens aside) and when we do, we learn about them in an intimate way that we can only describe using words. this does not do justice to the actions we are doing.

the point im trying to make is there is a wealth of knowledge here that should be taken very seriously as all of us have different experience levels with professional kitchens, knife making, and knife sharpening which all together make up our passion here. i would make the suggestion that you learn by doing and the knife is along for the ride. there are a lot of things you could try but i think using your head and getting the most out of all your experience is the only way to judge your progression at any of these skills.

there isn't anyone on this forum that knows everything and cannot learn from the other members here. we all know this and strive to add threads about experiences here and thats all i believe has happened in this thread. looking down on others is not what we do here and i am so glad it hasn't come to that.
 
TK I didnt measure. There wouldnt be much of a difference, but it was there.

Photo was taken after up to 200 strokes. Blue diamond. I just go by the feel and looks of it. Dont count strokes.

The first video is long, but in the first half you can see things there... :)

The other one were itasan18s knives in his video on sharpening... Did you see that "deba"? It looks like a MAC knife with that funny rounded tip.

As I said, my boss dont hae a clue about sharpening, and that is the issue here.

You can see on the photos : good blade+poor skill=disaster :D

Photos to come, I just have the polishing job to be done now.

What can I say about the repairing so far, this is the nicest steel I have worked with. It was just such an easy fix, I have problems believing it. And it was a damage.
 
Thank bieniek. I've seen itasan's video before, just the link that you put in that was broken :spiteful:

Agreed that the steel in hide knives is not difficult to sharpen but can't comment yet on fixing chip (haven't chipped mine yet).
 
I don't know if people are going to like this but o well, most knives (even Doi's and whatnot) that I have owned ALL come with some sort of imperfection. Damn even DT midtechs had some overgrinds here and there. The point is, unless your dropping a wad of cash for a full custom most likely the knife WILL have a problem here and there. Just live with it, fix it, use it, have a great time with it, its a knife not a foken Van Gogh to look at.
 
I'm am very glad I am not fixing that one. (not like I could):scared2:
 
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