RockyBasel
KKF Sponsor
just got a notification and looking to get in on this. Have money to blow and willing to overpay this time around.
Hope springs eternal! May the knife gods be with you
just got a notification and looking to get in on this. Have money to blow and willing to overpay this time around.
Update:
This should say 15n20, didn’t catch the typo until it was too late to change it.That’s a beautiful knife Ben, just wow! Could you explain the flexibility you were showing of the edge with your thumbnail? I’ve mentioned this before but I’m a hobbyist knife maker and when I first made a knife with that type of flex on the edge, I thought I had made a mistake in heat treat of the 25n20. My first knives were made with 1095 and the edge didn’t do that at all. I also have been using much thinner steel to begin with and my edges are about 15 to 20 degrees. Thank you again for showing us in such detail what you do. I find it extremely interesting. -Greg
Super excited! That looks like the sharpest OOTB I’ve seen personally and much sharper than I was expecting.
One question on the 36 degree inclusive microbevel. Is there a particular reason you use this angle? Are you looking to reduce OOTB issues with less than careful users, or do you recommend it for this steel/grind combo perhaps due to the zero bevel main grind? Most here sharpen their knives anywhere from zero to 30 inclusive, with 30 degrees considered pretty conservative.
I really want to express my appreciation for this rare opportunity to get insight straight from the bladesmith on sharpening angles for his work.
That’s a beautiful knife Ben, just wow! Could you explain the flexibility you were showing of the edge with your thumbnail? I’ve mentioned this before but I’m a hobbyist knife maker and when I first made a knife with that type of flex on the edge, I thought I had made a mistake in heat treat of the 25n20. My first knives were made with 1095 and the edge didn’t do that at all. I also have been using much thinner steel to begin with and my edges are about 15 to 20 degrees. Thank you again for showing us in such detail what you do. I find it extremely interesting. -Greg
I deliver a DOS & DON'TS sheet with my knives which explains what can and can't be done with my knives.
Or let me put it this way... You don't drive up a mountain through the mud with a sports car and if you do, that's on you .
Yeah, I’ve noticed certain knives that are thin and sharpened at steep angles or can even be very hard steel and steep angles can sort of “ting” when you come it at angles that aren’t straight perpendicular to the board, meaning hitting at an angle. I kind of thought yours might be like that during the beginning of your reply, but it seems you’ve sharpened them to be a little tougher. Can you rock chop with your without being very careful to stay straight up and down? Not that I really rock chop, but that is one of those motions that a lot of thin hard steel knives don’t really do well at. Those are knives that you have to pay more attention to technique. I actually like being able to come in at different angles and not have to be so gentle going into the board.I'm definitely not looking to mitigate any issues with less careful users .
My knives have a thin edge so there are certain things they are very good at, and others for which they can't be used at all. They are tools specialized for certain tasks, which makes them very good at those. Opposed to the allround knives the industry offers. Those are usable for pretty much every task, but good at none .
I deliver a DOS & DON'TS sheet with my knives which explains what can and can't be done with my knives. If one damages them, that's pretty much always due to abuse or inappropriate use. I haven't had a single case yet where the customer didn't directly and honestly approach me with "I made a mistake" or similar when something happened.
Or let me put it this way... You don't drive up a mountain through the mud with a sports car and if you do, that's on you . So I don't see any reason to build uneducated customer proof knives. I'm building knives that perform great in certain tasks and I expect the customer to educate himself on how to proper use the tool he buys for a lot of money.
Sry... That needed to be said. Don't mean to be rude to you and nothing against you. Just a general insight into my philosophy. You triggered me ✌
Regarding the actual angle and your question. The 36° (18° per side) seemed to be the recommendation of many people within the German kochmalscharf forum. I didn't ever really question if 33° or even 30° would make more sense. In that I didn't ever fine tune it. I took the 36° degrees total and had good results with it right from the start so I sticked with it.
However I have my unscientific theory about very flat angles like below 20° total (10° or lower per side).
Roman Landes described in his book how lower angles stay sharp for a longer time period and there is logical reasoning and test results behind this. But I think this reasoning resulted mainly from tests with guided machines like CATRA. What they lack is cutting board impact and angle changes (kind of jamming) during cutting.
Think about Rock chopping for example and how much side forces have to beared by the edge when doing that. Or chopping and the impact forces on the edge. Very often not at perfectly 90° to the board which also means side forces.
I want to say - this lower angle stays sharper for longer theory makes sense for guided blades used in machines, not so much for hand used tools and all the variables that apply in this scenario.
As I said - I can't scientifically proof it, yet my experience with very low angle sharpened edges was always bad. Either they failed very fast through chipping or they folded at a micro level. Never had I the feeling that they would really stay sharper for longer like the data from Landes suggested.
And I'm not suggesting his data would be wrong, I just think it can't be applied to real life applications as the test setup isn't suitable to make real life conclusions. The data is right, the interpretation of it imho not so much.
I would be curious about you guys that read here what your experience with higher vs lower edge angles is?
PS: That might be a hot take right there .
Flex is more a function of geometry than steel I'd say. Mild steel will flex to certain amount ground to this geometry. However it won't flex back if bent too far.
My knives will flex and flex even when very high forces are applied however, in opposition to the mild steel, when the force is too high, they will fail and break and not plastically deform like the mild steel would.
Showing that flex just gives an impression on how thin the knives are behind the edge. Therefore one can estimate the geometry a little. That's the only reason I showed that. Just because steel is very hard, doesn't mean it won't flex though.
Yeah, I’ve noticed certain knives that are thin and sharpened at steep angles or can even be very hard steel and steep angles can sort of “ting” when you come it at angles that aren’t straight perpendicular to the board, meaning hitting at an angle. I kind of thought yours might be like that during the beginning of your reply, but it seems you’ve sharpened them to be a little tougher. Can you rock chop with your without being very careful to stay straight up and down? Not that I really rock chop, but that is one of those motions that a lot of thin hard steel knives don’t really do well at. Those are knives that you have to pay more attention to technique. I actually being able to come in at different angles and not have to be so gentle going into the board.
The way you learn the limits is to cross themTo stay in the car analogy: your Porsche manual won't tell you at which speed and curve angle the car will slide out of the curve. You have to get a feel for the thing and you'll know what lines not to cross. (I hope so much this is true... I've never read a Porsche manual )
Larrin is listening. And judging.But I think this reasoning resulted mainly from tests with guided machines like CATRA. What they lack is cutting board impact and angle changes (kind of jamming) during cutting.
Larrin is listening. And judging.
I don't know his opinion on the topic but judging by both their books, Roman Landes researched this topic a little deeper. And it's no hit on either of them. I just come to experience Roman's results in real life with those very low sharpening angles always failed faster with me. Buuut... He also writes that a huge factor is how the knife is used so this may as well be specific to me or in other words, my fault.
Just in general to explain my approach to ship out sharpened knives - for some time I considered even sending them out without any edge at all. The reason for that is, that I know many of my customers don't even test my edge. They go and sharpen the knife guided to their angle on their stones establishing their edge before even testing my edge. It makes sense for them too. But it tells me that my OOTB edge won't satisfy everyone anyways so I came to the conclusion to just put a solid good edge on it and then the customer can still adapt it since it's small or use as is.
Update:
I always test ootb edges. If they are good, I use them. Never seemed right to me to waste them. Heck, even if they aren’t that great I usually use them a little bit, just sharpen much sooner. A great ootb edge helps give you a great first impression of the knife too. Not that you can’t see past a not so great ootb edge. You just sharpen it and get your first impression then. But it makes easier to be able to instantly use it.
. He also writes that a huge factor is how the knife is used so this may as well be specific to me or in other words, my fault.
I don't know his opinion on the topic but judging by both their books, Roman Landes researched this topic a little deeper. And it's no hit on either of them. I just come to experience Roman's results in real life with those very low sharpening angles always failed faster with me. Buuut... He also writes that a huge factor is how the knife is used so this may as well be specific to me or in other words, my fault.
Just in general to explain my approach to ship out sharpened knives - for some time I considered even sending them out without any edge at all. The reason for that is, that I know many of my customers don't even test my edge. They go and sharpen the knife guided to their angle on their stones establishing their edge before even testing my edge. It makes sense for them too. But it tells me that my OOTB edge won't satisfy everyone anyways so I came to the conclusion to just put a solid good edge on it and then the customer can still adapt it since it's small or use as is.
Update:
Incredible distal taper of the blade in that photo -- can hardly wait!!
Just curious, is that a 225mm or a 260mm blade in the photo?
Happy you like it! That's the 225mm.
no @demcav bad! bad!Can I get THAT one?
I hope my comment came across as tongue-in-cheek!I don't know his opinion on the topic but judging by both their books, Roman Landes researched this topic a little deeper. And it's no hit on either of them. I just come to experience Roman's results in real life with those very low sharpening angles always failed faster with me. Buuut... He also writes that a huge factor is how the knife is used so this may as well be specific to me or in other words, my fault.
I thought NKW was going to autograph all our tangs with a personalized note in calligraphy using a tungsten-carbide needle. You know, right next to the HRC rating. Is that not happening anymore? Well, at least all the US buyers, not sure what the Euros are getting...
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