Microbevel, a few quick questions

[Kawa]

So, I want to be able to put on a microbevel if I decide it is needed. Means I have to start practising, because putting one on isnt exactly as easy as the torturial shows. The first few strokes on that way-too-high angle feel like you are deliberately destroying your previous work. And, one stroke in, there is no way back, or you just really destroyed your previous work
First I want to see and feel the effect on a cheap knive.


So, to start a few quick questions I can't find answers to, but I can't imagine I'm the first to wonder ...

1) Does it matter on which side I put the microbevel? Looking down on the spine, cutting edge on the board, I'd say I want it on the right side (I'm right handed, so are my knives). It's a guess, mostly because there is the higher/taller first cutting edge on an assymetric J-knive (which most, if not all, are?). I'm practising on western 50/50 bevels though...

2 At the end of my sharpening, or in between sessions, I'm using a strop. I'm assuming I strop at two different angles once you have a microbevel, otherwise you will miss the actual edge on one side I imagine. Is this correct?
How do you actually remember that microbevel angle while doing maintainance stropping? How can you speek of muscle memory when you only did a few strokes at the end of sharpening at that microbevel angle, then you dont hit that angle for a period (during usage of the knife) and then you want to strop in-between-sharpening-sessions. No way I still know or feel at what angle that microbevel was... I touched, used, sharpened many knives in between etc...


You see, some assumptions in my story. Please feel free to answer a question, or give feedback on anything i've put up. I'm open for that, since I like to learn and there always seems to be more into it then I think off...

Thanks,

 

[ian]

1) Does it matter on which side I put the microbevel? Looking down on the spine, cutting edge on the board, I'd say I want it on the right side (I'm right handed, so are my knives). It's a guess, mostly because there is the higher/taller first cutting edge on an assymetric J-knive (which most, if not all, are?). I'm practising on western 50/50 bevels though...

Personally, I'd put it on both sides. If you're sharpening very asymmetrically, I suppose you could try putting it on one side. As long as your knife isn't steering, do whatever you want.

2 At the end of my sharpening, or in between sessions, I'm using a strop. I'm assuming I strop at two different angles once you have a microbevel, otherwise you will miss the actual edge on one side I imagine. Is this correct?
How do you actually remember that microbevel angle while doing maintainance stropping? How can you speek of muscle memory when you only did a few strokes at the end of sharpening at that microbevel angle, then you dont hit that angle for a period (during usage of the knife) and then you want to strop in-between-sharpening-sessions. No way I still know or feel at what angle that microbevel was... I touched, used, sharpened many knives in between etc...

The strop doesn't have to be at exactly the same angle. It just can't be way lower than the microbevel angle. There's some give to most stropping materials, so you'll still be hitting the edge if you're off by a bit. I would only worry about hitting the edge, personally; I wouldn't feel the need to strop at two different angles. I mean, you're not trying to deburr the shoulder of the microbevel, are you?

 

[Kawa]

From what I read the consensus seems to be that a microbevel on two sides makes a knife less sharp, while having it on one side doesnt effect the sharpness much compared to no microbevel at all.
This might be myth 1001 about sharpening, I dont know. Open for a new vision.

I can imagine if i have a normale side, lets say 15 degrees, and a microbevel side at around 30-35 degrees the 15 degrees stropping doesnt hit the microbevels side edge...
The other way around I can imagine stropping at the microbevels angle would round off the 15 degrees side extra fast.

But if you say your experience is it doesn't matter that much in practise, im willing to try it.
So in my example, would you just go for the 15 degrees (more or less) stropping on both sides?

 

[ian]

From what I read the consensus seems to be that a microbevel on two sides makes a knife less sharp, while having it on one side doesnt effect the sharpness much compared to no microbevel at all.
This might be myth 1001 about sharpening, I dont know. Open for a new vision.

Ah, yea 30-35 each side might be a little much. I’m usually doing a shallower microbevel on each side, maybe 20-25 degrees. Idk, I never measure. I’m also not a microbevel expert, so maybe others have better advice.

I can imagine if i have a normale side, lets say 15 degrees, and a microbevel side at around 30-35 degrees the 15 degrees stropping doesnt hit the microbevels side edge...
The other way around I can imagine stropping at the microbevels angle would round off the 15 degrees side extra fast.

But if you say your experience is it doesn't matter that much in practise, im willing to try it.
So in my example, would you just go for the 15 degrees (more or less) stropping on both sides?

No, I’d try to approximate the actual apex angle on both sides. Ie, 30 degrees on one, 15 on the other. I was just saying that you don’t have to be super precise, down to the same degree or whatever as you sharpened, because your strop has a little give.

 

[Luftmensch]

Does it matter on which side I put the microbevel?

You wont get terribly good results unless you put it on the side that makes contact with the food

 

[Luftmensch]

ok ok... Couldnt resist being silly.

@ian gave you some pretty good advice. He is also being modest. He has sharpened plenty of knives. He answered your questions rather well, so let me perhaps discuss the premise of the question.

From what I read the consensus seems to be that a microbevel on two sides makes a knife less sharp

Broadly speaking, yes! You are creating an edge with more steel behind the apex.

So, I want to be able to put on a microbevel if I decide it is needed.

Why is it needed? It is often done to prevent an edge from chipping. This can happen because the knife is being abused. It can happen because the steel is not particularly tough. Or, more likely, it can happen because the bevel angle is too acute.

On double-bevel knives that begs the question: if you are getting chipping, why is the bevel angle so acute? Just make it more obtuse until it doesn't chip! Then you wont need a microbevel.


I think microbevels have more relevance in single bevel knives where you don't get that choice so easily. The 'ceiling' on your bevel angle is dictated by the factory grind. You can either make a more serious convex which is a lot of grinding and blending to maintain the aesthetics.... or put a microbevel on the blade. This is one sided and it is always on the opposite side of the ura.

 

[ian]

I kinda like putting a microbevel on double beveled knives just in the course of the sharpening. I do my primary bevel at a shallow angle, but then do most of the deburring at a higher angle. Gets rid of the burr quicker and produces a small microbevel at the same time.

 

[SeattleBen]

I think if I'm recalling and inferring correctly that the OP is watching the JKI video where Jon does only put a microbevel on one side. Which leads to the mild confusion in interactions with Ian. Again there's several layers of assumption happening on my part.

 

[ian]

You should just do what Jon does, in that case. I only know what I do.

 

[Kawa]

I think if I'm recalling and inferring correctly that the OP is watching the JKI video where Jon does only put a microbevel on one side. Which leads to the mild confusion in interactions with Ian. Again there's several layers of assumption happening on my part.

Yes, among others. But I give JKI videos a lot of credit.

Not referring to ian here. I've read enough around here to take his advice very serious aswell.

Guess there are more ways to Rome, again...

 

[Kawa]

ok ok... Couldnt resist being silly.

@ian gave you some pretty good advice. He is also being modest. He has sharpened plenty of knives. He answered your questions rather well, so let me perhaps discuss the premise of the question.




Broadly speaking, yes! You are creating an edge with more steel behind the apex.



Why is it needed? It is often done to prevent an edge from chipping. This can happen because the knife is being abused. It can happen because the steel is not particularly tough. Or, more likely, it can happen because the bevel angle is too acute.

On double-bevel knives that begs the question: if you are getting chipping, why is the bevel angle so acute? Just make it more obtuse until it doesn't chip! Then you wont need a microbevel.


I think microbevels have more relevance in single bevel knives where you don't get that choice so easily. The 'ceiling' on your bevel angle is dictated by the factory grind. You can either make a more serious convex which is a lot of grinding and blending to maintain the aesthetics.... or put a microbevel on the blade. This is one sided and it is always on the opposite side of the ura.

Good question.

I think I want to try a microbevel on those very crappy soft steels. Those 5,- budget knives.
My thoughts are that I need a steep/fat angle to give these knives an edge that doesnt roll over after the first contact, or I take the normal (around 15 degrees) approach and try a microbevel to give the edge a little more strength.

It is all an experiment I was willing to start trying out. If the conclusion of all the advice im getting is that I shouldn't use a microbevel for this reason, I have to reconsider...



I wasnt intending to put a microbevel on to prevent chipping. If that is the only proper reason to do so, i have to let it go and sharpen the cheap knives at a higher angle i guess.

 

[JDC]

I always zero grind my knives. Given how thin they become, I put micro-bevels on both sides like Ian. This requires more consistent sharpening angles than a single micro-bevel, but works the best for my scenario. If your primary bevel has a higher angle, micro-bevel on one side would be enough.

 

[SeattleBen]

For the intended purposes of practicing on cheap soft stainless, (not ideal but also very standard), bringing the primary to 30 inclusive and putting 30 or 45 degree per side micro would get you somewhere close. IMO.

For what it's worth, I've found the headache of practice on cheap stainless to nearly not be worth the effort. But I was also in a position where I could chew up knives as learning projects.

 

[ian]

So, why would you do it on one side.... hmm.

Say you take two knives, one single bevel and one double bevel, both with a 30 degree apex angle, so 30/0 for the single bevel and 15/15 for the double bevel. At some point I think I remember Jon telling me that the single bevel would cut through food better, since it was thinner behind the edge, in the sense that at a certain height above the cutting board the knife is thinner. (Sorry if I’m misquoting you, Jon.) But now I don’t really believe that. I mean, unless I f*cked up the trig the double beveled knife seems thinner at 5mm off the cutting board in the pic below.

I guess maybe the single bevel could cut easier when making thin slices, though, since it’s easier to push the thin slice out of the way on that side, whereas on the other side you’re anchoring the rest of the product with your hand. That is, if you cut a thin slice with a single bevel, the knife can go straight down and the slice gets pushed over. On the other hand, with thicker slices the single bevel’s gonna steer. And maybe it’ll steer a bit on the thin slices too, depending.

It’s also not clear to me that any of this matters that much if we change “single bevel” to “double bevel with a very small single-sided microbevel”. I suppose if you’re really intentional about creating the microbevel, it could be faster to just do it on one side instead of both, but with me it’s just part of my sharpening routine to do it as part of deburring. Idk.

In any case, we’re just trying to enlarge the apex angle a bit to prevent chipping. Let’s not overthink it. (... he says, 10,000 words and one diagram later.)

 

[JDC]

So, why would you do it on one side.... hmm.

Say you take two knives, one single bevel and one double bevel, both with a 30 degree apex angle, so 30/0 for the single bevel and 15/15 for the double bevel. At some point I think I remember Jon telling me that the single bevel would cut through food better, since it was thinner behind the edge, in the sense that at a certain height above the cutting board the knife is thinner. (Sorry if I’m misquoting you, Jon.) But now I don’t really believe that. I mean, unless I f*cked up the trig the double beveled knife seems thinner at 5mm off the cutting board in the pic below.

View attachment 94577

I guess maybe the single bevel could cut easier when making thin slices, though, since it’s easier to push the thin slice out of the way on that side, whereas on the other side you’re anchoring the rest of the product with your hand. That is, if you cut a thin slice with a single bevel, the knife can go straight down and the slice gets pushed over. On the other hand, with thicker slices the single bevel’s gonna steer. And maybe it’ll steer a bit on the thin slices too, depending.

It’s also not clear to me that any of this matters that much if we change “single bevel” to “double bevel with a very small single-sided microbevel”. I suppose if you’re really intentional about creating the microbevel, it could be faster to just do it on one side instead of both, but with me it’s just part of my sharpening routine to do it as part of deburring. Idk.

In any case, we’re just trying to enlarge the apex angle a bit to prevent chipping. Let’s not overthink it. (... he says, 10,000 words and one diagram later.)

If a single bevel is sharpened at 25 degrees, the thickness at the same height would be 2.33. When comparing single bevels to double wide-bevel counterparts, it's usually the case the single bevel is grind at a steeper angle.

 

[ian]

If a single bevel is sharpened at 25 degrees, the thickness at the same height would be 2.33. When comparing single bevels to double wide-bevel counterparts, it's usually the case the single bevel is grind at a steeper angle.

Hmm, I don’t quite follow. Why would you compare 30 degree (inclusive) double bevel to 25 degree single bevel? Or are you just saying that single bevels usually come with a more acute apex? That’s probably true.

I guess what I meant is that if you zoom in so that we’re really looking at the microbevel in the diagram, then what matters for edge stability and toughness is the inclusive angle, so if you want your edge to have a certain amount of toughness, you want to sharpen at a certain (say, 30 degrees) inclusive angle, no matter whether it’s double or single. And then the double bevel seems thinner at 5mm off the board.

I also wonder if the double beveled will be slightly more tough at the same angle because most of the board impacts are going to be coming more straight on. Hmm... never sure how much of a difference any of this makes tho.

 

[JDC]

Hmm, I don’t quite follow. Why would you compare 30 degree (inclusive) double bevel to 25 degree single bevel? Or are you just saying that single bevels usually come with a more acute apex? That’s probably true.

I guess what I meant is that if you zoom in so that we’re really looking at the microbevel in the diagram, then what matters for edge stability and toughness is the inclusive angle, so if you want your edge to have a certain amount of toughness, you want to sharpen at a certain (say, 30 degrees) inclusive angle, no matter whether it’s double or single. And then the double bevel seems thinner at 5mm off the board.

I also wonder if the double beveled will be slightly more tough at the same angle because most of the board impacts are going to be coming more straight on. Hmm... never sure how much of a difference any of this makes tho.

Sorry for the confusion, I meant the latter case.

In sharpening, when we say 15 degrees both sides, it indicates a 30 degrees double bevel edge. But when sharpening a single bevel, we may go 20 degrees on one side instead.

For micro-bevels, what I do is 45 degrees both sides, which results in a 90 degrees micro-bevel (my blades are really thin, need that to strengthen them). For a single bevel I'd go 30~45 degrees one side.

So it's safe to say single bevels are usually thinner than their double bevel counterparts, even at the edge level.

 

[ian]

Sorry for the confusion, I meant the latter case.

In sharpening, when we say 15 degrees both sides, it indicates a 30 degrees double bevel edge. But when sharpening a single bevel, we may go 20 degrees on one side instead.

For micro-bevels, what I do is 45 degrees both sides, which results in a 90 degrees micro-bevel (my blades are really thin, need that to strengthen them). For a single bevel I'd go 30~45 degrees one side.

So it's safe to say single bevels are usually thinner than their double bevel counterparts, even at the edge level.

Cool, thx. Why do you feel like you need such a more conservative microbevel on the double bevel knives, though? Presumably, if the steel is the same and you’re satisfied with a shallower angle on your single bevel knives, you could also get away with a 30-45 inclusive angle on the double bevel knives, no?

 

[JDC]

Cool, thx. Why do you feel like you need such a more conservative microbevel on the double bevel knives, though? Presumably, if the steel is the same and you’re satisfied with a shallower angle on your single bevel knives, you could also get away with a 30-45 inclusive angle on the double bevel knives, no?

Good question. The thing is I ground my double bevel knives too thin and too acute, to a level that they don't actually need real edges... The problem then is they micro chip like crazy, no matter what steel. I need that conservative micro-bevel to stabilize the very edge. My single bevel is a deba, so its primary bevel is much much thicker and obtuse than my double bevels... I believe my double bevels are even thinner and more acute than most stock usubas.

 

[Ruso]

When I put a microbevel, which is not very often, I do it on one side only at around 35-40degrees. Why? Because I trust Jon’s expertise and I did not have any problems with this.

When stropping, you should try to trop the microbevel at one side and the bevel on another.

P.S. If one “zero grinds” and then puts a microbevel on both sides - it’s hard to call it a microbevel at this point. Sounds like a normal secondary bevel.

 

[SeattleBen]

P.S. If one “zero grinds” and then puts a microbevel on both sides - it’s hard to call it a microbevel at this point. Sounds like a normal secondary bevel.

Yes, this exactly. I deleted a few ham fisted versions of the above, except I was using wide bevel knives as my reference point.

 

[JDC]

When I put a microbevel, which is not very often, I do it on one side only at around 35-40degrees. Why? Because I trust Jon’s expertise and I did not have any problems with this.

When stropping, you should try to trop the microbevel at one side and the bevel on another.

P.S. If one “zero grinds” and then puts a microbevel on both sides - it’s hard to call it a microbevel at this point. Sounds like a normal secondary bevel.

It is what it is, you can also call the blade face of a fully convex blade a primary bevel.

 

[ian]

Yea, microbevel just means "a very small bevel at the apex". In my mind, doesn't matter what's behind it.

 

[Kawa]

So if i read correctly, some do dual micro bevel, even at higher angle, some do single side only. Some only do it on single bevel knives, others on all knives. Some dont do it at all.
Every flavor present..

In my questions I was referring to a small bevel at the very edge, at a much higher angle then tradiotionally (lets say 15-20 degrees). I wasn't referring to a zero grind where one puts a dual angle 'normal angle' (15-20) on the edge.
With this in mind, would it matter on which side you put a microbevel, if you choose to put it on one side?

I would think that if i need a microbevel on both sides (at the 30-45 degree range) for the knife to be stable, I thinned my knife too much?

 

[Ruso]

So if i read correctly, some do dual micro bevel, even at higher angle, some do single side only. Some only do it on single bevel knives, others on all knives. Some dont do it at all.
Every flavor present..

In my questions I was referring to a small bevel at the very edge, at a much higher angle then tradiotionally (lets say 15-20 degrees). I wasn't referring to a zero grind where one puts a dual angle 'normal angle' (15-20) on the edge.
With this in mind, would it matter on which side you put a microbevel, if you choose to put it on one side?

I put it on a right side of a blade. IMHO, microbevel should be an exception not the rule.

I would think that if i need a microbevel on both sides (at the 30-45 degree range) for the knife to be stable, I thinned my knife too much?

I tend to agree, something is not optimal.

 

[M1k3]

If you have steering on your knife, I'd put it on the side it's curving towards. If you don't have steering, I'd put it on the side you get better, more predictable sharpening results from.

 

[ref]

I guess maybe the single bevel could cut easier when making thin slices, though, since it’s easier to push the thin slice out of the way on that side, whereas on the other side you’re anchoring the rest of the product with your hand. That is, if you cut a thin slice with a single bevel, the knife can go straight down and the slice gets pushed over. On the other hand, with thicker slices the single bevel’s gonna steer. And maybe it’ll steer a bit on the thin slices too, depending.

I'm pretty sure this is the main driving force to why single bevel knives cut with less resistance, and it's because there's essentially no resistance on the left side (for a right handed knife), due to the concavity. When going through dense stuff, most of your force is going laterally to push the food apart while the edge gets a free ride, but at the same time the knife has to go straight downwards, and as you say, with a single bevel knife, the food on the left can stay put and all the force is being put on the right hand side to push the slice away.

That, and the fact that the angle is generally a bit more shallow, but the above does most of the work I think.

 

[Luftmensch]

I kinda like putting a microbevel on double beveled knives just in the course of the sharpening. I do my primary bevel at a shallow angle, but then do most of the deburring at a higher angle. Gets rid of the burr quicker and produces a small microbevel at the same time.

If I am just touching up an edge, I will just hone the secondary bevel.
If I am doing a more serious reset, that will involve thinning behind the edge at a lower angle followed by honing at the original secondary bevel angle. This is done to remove meat behind the cutting edge.
If I am thinning, it is aggressive material removal to alter the primary bevel or grind. Followed by honing to set the secondary bevel. Followed by refinishing to restore the aesthetics.

Perhaps you consider it differently... but is that final higher angle a secondary bevel or a microbevel? I think of it as the opposite! There is thinning at a lower angle and edge honing at the 'correct' angle ... but this is a secondary bevel and not a microbevel.

P.S. If one “zero grinds” and then puts a microbevel on both sides - it’s hard to call it a microbevel at this point. Sounds like a normal secondary bevel.

I tend to agree...

On most blades (as above) I try to blend the thinned out low angle section with the final secondary bevel. If it is a laser, given how little steel there is, I will be content to work on one angle to yield a visible secondary bevel.




I wonder if there is some muddled confusion between the deburring and microbevels? They are not intended to do the same thing! Deburring is pretty much invisible and removes the fatigued wire edge. Isnt the intention of microbevels to remove non fatigued steel? I'd also posit that microbevels aught to be visible with the naked eye (albeit very, very small). If not, it is unlikely they will add much strength. Now... the process of adding a microbevel also might deburr the edge... but that doesnt mean it is the same thing!

 

[ian]

I'd also posit that microbevels aught to be visible with the naked eye (albeit very, very small)

Heh shall we call smaller ones nanobevels then?

It’s a fair point that maybe one should carefully differentiate between the kind of very small bevel that one creates by sharpening briefly at a higher angle right before deburring, and the larger, very visible microbevel that you might produce on a wide bevel knife. But it’s all a question of degree.

 

[Ruso]

I like picobevel