Microbevel and maintenance

[Benuser]

I dont really understand the distinction you are making between touching-up (easy and fast) and a micro-bevel??

Two cases. One without a microbevel. High angles. A vintage carbon Sab, or one of the cheaper Herder series. Frequent touching-up, piece of Belgian Blue in my hand, I feel the resistance, a few edge leading strokes, a few longitudinal ones for deburring, done. Knive has almost recovered the performance/feeling it provides after a full sharpening.
Second case. Same knife, much lower angle, but a microbevel of 45° on the dominant side, performs even better. Call it a nanobevel if you want. Probably all my normal bevels are close to what some would call a microbevel. But the almost as frequent touching-ups require to exactly hit the microbevel, or there's a dramatic loss of performance, and the touching-up can't be done as easily as in the first case.
So I was looking for the easy maintenance of the first scenario combined with the performance of the second one.

 

[Luftmensch]

A vintage carbon Sab

I have to play around with one of these

The softer carbons are not really something I have good experience with. There are probably tricks I need to learn

Same knife, much lower angle, but a microbevel of 45° on the dominant side

But the almost as frequent touching-ups require to exactly hit the microbevel, or there's a dramatic loss of performance, and the touching-up can't be done as easily as in the first case.

45 on one side sounds pretty extreme to me. Again... german steels are not my forte - so maybe it is reasonable. Have you tried 30 degrees? The problem with 45 is that you are teetering on the brink between an acute and obtuse angle. If you raise the angle to 45.1 you are shifting into 'obtuse'. This is before you add the angle on the other side! In some ways this is a very, very gentle way of bread knifing your edge. You would have much more (literal) wiggle room for error at 30 degrees.

Since it is a softer steel... You are potentially working with a hardness where a knife steel would reorient and burnish rolled edges? As others have said, stropping could be similarly useful. Potentially on something loaded with compound if you want to spice it up?

Hey @stringer; can you imagine a ceramic rod being useful for @Benuser??


[Edit: "german steels are not my forte".... Doh! Sounds bad when we are talking about a French knife. Yes... "soft carbon" is a better term]

 

[adam92]

I try both, I prefer second m

Two cases. One without a microbevel. High angles. A vintage carbon Sab, or one of the cheaper Herder series. Frequent touching-up, piece of Belgian Blue in my hand, I feel the resistance, a few edge leading strokes, a few longitudinal ones for deburring, done. Knive has almost recovered the performance/feeling it provides after a full sharpening.
Second case. Same knife, much lower angle, but a microbevel of 45° on the dominant side, performs even better. Call it a nanobevel if you want. Probably all my normal bevels are close to what some would call a microbevel. But the almost as frequent touching-ups require to exactly hit the microbevel, or there's a dramatic loss of performance, and the touching-up can't be done as easily as in the first case.
So I was looking for the easy maintenance of the first scenario combined with the performance of the second one.

I used both method before, I prefer second method.

 

[Benuser]

45 degrees isn't that extreme for a microbevel with soft carbons, if you realise that a common primary edge has an inclusive angle of some 45-50 dergrees. If you bring that back to some 25 degrees inclusive or even lower, the inclusive angle with he microbevel stays under the 60, which gives the robustness you're looking for together with a very thin geometry. By the way, Herder delivers its peelers with a microbevel in the 60 degree range.
A ceramic rod is certainly a serious option. The finest one I have and know is the Sieger LongLife, distributed by Böker. Grit a bit coarser than to the Chosera/NP2k, so in the real JIS2k range. I usually maintain my soft carbons much finer: Blue Brocken or Naniwa Snow-white 8k. Deburring on a rod it is perfectly possible, but a bit tricky. On a stone you may avoid creating a substantial burr. So far I'm not able to do the same with a rod.

 

[HumbleHomeCook]

I've always defined a micro-bevel as just one or two very light passes leaving the bevel barely, if at all, perceptible.

Is that how everyone else is defining it?

 

[ian]

I've always defined a micro-bevel as just one or two very light passes leaving the bevel barely, if at all, perceptible.

Is that how everyone else is defining it?

Idk, I call that “deburring”. To me a microbevel is almost visible. I’m not sure what the defining number of strokes is, though.

 

[HumbleHomeCook]

Idk, I call that “deburring”. To me a microbevel is almost visible. I’m not sure what the defining number of strokes is, though.

Yeah fair enough and good point. I don't de-burr at higher angles on the stone so that didn't occur to me. I've always thought of the micro being applied after de-burring.

I'm coming from the EDC world and this is a pretty common approach. I know there's a fair bit of differences in views, techniques, etc. between the two worlds so that's why I'm curious what how our community defines it.

I reckon if nothing else, no matter how each of us as individuals may define it, in order to help such questions, we'd need to establish how the OP defines it.

 

[Benuser]

I've always defined a micro-bevel as just one or two very light passes leaving the bevel barely, if at all, perceptible.

Is that how everyone else is defining it?

I do. You want to preserve the original geometry. That's the reason for the microbevel.

 

[BoSharpens]

Fascinating read above, but tortuous for me to read it all.

I've dealt with burrs all my life in the machine shop. 40 years ago I got a rotating lapping disk and it spelled the end of burrs when I put tools on the aluminum oxide disk with or without some diamond dust. It works the same way with knives. Knives are much harder to deal with as the curved blade means you have real good finger & eye control to touch your edge ... or you don't. That obviously led to people developing fixtures to control angles.

I tried fixture a bit, but quickly found it took me longer to sharpen a normal knife than by just using my old trained fingers.

My experience on standard chef knives has been when you get to your fine edge with fine abrasive all burrs I can feel are gone. I check sharpness and it is real good. Then I do the final stropping if I want a real polished final finish and the edge is a bit sharper yet.

The difference in my work is I have to work fairly fast yet get a terrific edge on for a paying customer on his Shun or Wustoff blades. I could never make a profit sharpening elaborate edge profiles on custom Japanese blades.

Still, I think my work is in some way related to the work described before me. Someone described using cardboard. Cardboard is effectively a "Variable" surface that conforms to the steel's microbevel, regardless of a hand held position that is not matching the microbevel. Now if you add 1-4 micron diamond dust to the cardboard, you will get a glass smooth polish on your edge.

Just my opinion of course and its not so coarse

 

[ian]

I read your question more like: how do I find the angle of my microbevel, where you give examples what happens when you do it wrong: to shallow angle = no improvement in cutting, too steep angle and you have a burr that you need to remove again.

Havent read too many replies that answer this, so I might be reading the original question wrong?



What you can try is make your own 'angle guide' tool. I like to use a plastic straw for this. You need those small (about 3mm diameter) cocktail straws
- Decide the angle you are giving the knive (normal or micro bevel, it doesnt matter in this example)
- Hold the knife steady when you found it
- Bring the straw towards the back of the knive, holding the straw vertically (so the 'round sucking hole' of the straw is flat on your stone)
- Somewhere the knife hits the straw. Put your index fingers nail exactly on the spot where the knives back and the straw touch eachother. Hold your nail steady and then bend/bow the straw around this spot on your nail, so that you make a kink/line/bend (?) in the straw.
Thats your angle guide for this knive.

Its important you use a plastic straw for this. Once you bend the straw, there will be a line visable and feelable forever. So everytime you just want to touch up your microbevel at the same angle as the last time, take the straw.
ofcourse you need to decide a place on your knife aswell, for example 'at the end of the first kanji', due to the knives height.

Hard to explain in words. If interessted, I can do a quick photo.

It takes a little time to get used to this. You have to remember the feeling about how the knives back should hit your nail etc. But after a few times, this cheap trick works surprisingly well!

The hardest part is to obtain plastic straws. Holland forbids (the whole world?) to sell these since last july and now there are all paper. There are still places that sell them.

I just bought 4000 straws, cut them in 3 pieces. So I can do 12000 knives this way. Im setteled for live, and the live after that.

If you want to have an angle guide for a microbevel, it might be easier to just cut a wedge out of some wood or something. Or if you're going to spend money on 4000 straws, you could just order a premade wedge or set of wedges. Then if you typically use 25 degree microbevels on your knives, you don't need a separate straw for every possible knife height.

Burning question: how do you organize your angle-guide straws?

Edit: Or maybe I'm missing your point. Do you keep the straw contacting the knife as you sharpen, so that it brushes the stone as you go, at least when you're sharpening the relevant part of the blade? If so, isn't it kind of a pain to keep it secure and vertical while you're sharpening?

 

[Kawa]

If want to have an angle guide for a microbevel, it might be easier to just cut a wedge out of some wood or something. Or if you're going to spend money on 4000 straws, you could just order a premade wedge or set of wedges. Then if you typically use 25 degree microbevels on your knives, you don't need a separate straw for every possible knife height.

Burning question: how do you organize your angle-guide straws?

Edit: Or maybe I'm missing your point. Do you keep the straw contacting the knife as you sharpen, so that it brushes the stone as you go, at least when you're sharpening the relevant part of the blade? If so, isn't it kind of a pain to keep it secure and vertical while you're sharpening?

I only use them to start. For me a real angle guide feels like cheating. I want to get good at freehand sharpening. This is some kind of in-between solution for me.
It was born out of frustration. I understand the sharpie trick, but I never think it can work like the way people advise: there is a contradiction in my opinion.

So you color your edge. This is needed because appearently you cant find the edge with your own senses. No problem. But then you start sharpening. You have to check once in a while (every few strokes?) if you really hit the edge (remove the sharpie at the right spot). Even if you hit the edge, you have removed the knife from the stone, to put it back after checking. So how do you know you put it back at the same angle as before? You cant tell with muscle memory, otherwise you wouldnt need sharpie to start with, right?
Anyway, there were too many times I was absolutely sure I was at the right angle, only to check and conclude I was completely wrong

So every time I switch side of the knife, I start with the straw. Edge away from me, the index finger is on the bend-line (how do you call this?) of the straw, edge towards me, the thumb is. It also comes in handy when you deburr with edge leading heel-to-tip motion and when you strop and there is even less feedback for a beginner.
Yes, I am a slow sharpener because of this, but it works.

Sharpening is my hobby, so it doesnt have to be practical of fast for me. I cook food, only to use my knives so I can sharpen them again




So, the knives I sharpen on a regular base (my own, good friends and family) I keep those straws. For knives I dont think I will sharpen anytime soon again, I throw them away when I'm done.

4000 straws is like 20 euros, 3000 straws is like 17 euros, 2000 straws was like 13 euros. The sending costs were the most.


When I buy premade wedges, I do adjust the knives angle to the edge that fits best, right?
Now I just find the angle the knive comes with, and I 'record' that angle with a straw. For me that sounds a little bit more logical. I start sharpening and raise the angle. When I reach the right angle, I hold the knive steady, take the straw with the other hand and make a mark where my nail hits the back of the knife. Then I bend the straw and Im done.


How do I organize them? Like an autist

 

[ian]

I only use them to start. For me a real angle guide feels like cheating. I want to get good at freehand sharpening. This is some kind of in-between solution for me.
It was born out of frustration. I understand the sharpie trick, but I never think it can work like the way people advise: there is a contradiction in my opinion.

So you color your edge. This is needed because appearently you cant find the edge with your own senses. No problem. But then you start sharpening. You have to check once in a while (every few strokes?) if you really hit the edge (remove the sharpie at the right spot). Even if you hit the edge, you have removed the knife from the stone, to put it back after checking. So how do you know you put it back at the same angle as before? You cant tell with muscle memory, otherwise you wouldnt need sharpie to start with, right?
Anyway, there were too many times I was absolutely sure I was at the right angle, only to check and conclude I was completely wrong

So every time I switch side of the knife, I start with the straw. Edge away from me, the index finger is on the bend-line (how do you call this?) of the straw, edge towards me, the thumb is. It also comes in handy when you deburr with edge leading heel-to-tip motion and when you strop and there is even less feedback for a beginner.
Yes, I am a slow sharpener because of this, but it works.

Sharpening is my hobby, so it doesnt have to be practical of fast for me. I cook food, only to use my knives so I can sharpen them again




So, the knives I sharpen on a regular base (my own, good friends and family) I keep those straws. For knives I dont think I will sharpen anytime soon again, I throw them away when I'm done.

4000 straws is like 20 euros, 3000 straws is like 17 euros, 2000 straws was like 13 euros. The sending costs were the most.


When I buy premade wedges, I do adjust the knives angle to the edge that fits best, right?
Now I just find the angle the knive comes with, and I 'record' that angle with a straw. For me that sounds a little bit more logical. I start sharpening and raise the angle. When I reach the right angle, I hold the knive steady, take the straw with the other hand and make a mark where my nail hits the back of the knife. Then I bend the straw and Im done.


How do I organize them? Like an autist

View attachment 160188

Yea, I don’t find Sharpies very useful for sharpening, except in very particular circumstances, but they’re useful when you’re starting out. With a bevel, though, if it’s big enough that you could conceivably use a sharpie test on it, it’s probably big enough that you can feel it a bit while sharpening, and try to ride along it. The sharpie can help you develop that feel, I suppose.

I’d also say that there’s nothing magical about the out of the box bevel angle. With fancy J knives, it’s often completely an afterthought.

You do you! I like your straw box.

 

[Benuser]

I dont really understand the distinction you are making between touching-up (easy and fast) and a micro-bevel?? If touching up on the Belgian Blue is working for you.... it sounds like you are doing the right things??





Exactly!!!

If you used 12 degrees per side last week... and 14 degrees this week... it doesn't really matter. You have to remove little material. Just dont change the angle by 10 degrees!






That is a desperate resort!! 45 degrees inclusive (both sides) is a really heavy duty cutting edge. It wont feel that sharp. 45 degrees per side is unimaginable. That knife will not cut well.

You can use very high angles to debur. Use a high grit stone and do only one or two very light passes. Not only does this debur the edge, it makes sure you have properly hit the apex. This truly is a micro-bevel. But if the bevel before it (secondary bevel) is called a micro-bevel... than perhaps this bevel should be called a nano-bevel

The single-sided microbevel I'm speaking about is from the deburring on the finest stone at 45°. The primary bevels are around 10° per side. Which gives an inclusive angle only slightly higher than the one I would apply with this kind of soft carbon without said microbevel, but with a far thinner geometry. By the way, you seem to be using primary and secondary different than usual on this forum.

 

[Luftmensch]

By the way, you seem to be using primary and secondary different than usual on this forum.

Maybe!

As I understand it, there are two camps...each using the opposite definition of primary and secondary!! That's why I included the diagram. My definitions might be unfamiliar... but they should be consistent with the included diagrams. That said... I do tend to get confused

 

[ian]

Primary and secondary are dumb words and should be eliminated from the discussion in favor of “edge bevel” and “relief bevel”, or maybe “thinning bevel” instead of relief bevel. Maybe there’s better terminology.

In my field there are very important objects called “Kleinian groups of the first (or second) kind” and I can never remember which is which. Terrible terminology.

 

[Luftmensch]

In my field there are very important objects called “Kleinian groups of the first (or second) kind” and I can never remember which is which. Terrible terminology.

Man I hate those... They never let me into the VIO sections at clubs. I am always wearing the wrong shoes... or maybe I just give off the wrong hyperbolic space vibe . Looking over those velvety ropes into the VIO section... it just looks so glamorous and cool... you know? All those geodesics having a unit ball with their conformal maps

 

[stringer]

The microbevel for me on a gyuto is quite a bit more substantial than a couple swipes on each side with a fine stone. I'm probably far more aggressive in board contact, but a few swipes on each side isn't durable enough for me. I do a "full progression" for my microbevel. Although that's usually only two stones. Usually a medium grit natural and a medium-fine natural (my favorite is washita to aizu). I apply it to both sides. Probably 45-60 degrees inclusive. It's definitely visible. And this is also what I "touch up" in the field. It can be touched up many many times in my experience before needing thinned. Even with a stout microbevel I usually end up needing to thin because I've chipped the knife and need to make repairs long before I've made the micro bevel wide enough to begin impacting performance.

 

[Benuser]

It clarifies a lot. So we use the word microbevel for very different things. Thanks, @stringer

 

[HumbleHomeCook]

The microbevel for me on a gyuto is quite a bit more substantial than a couple swipes on each side with a fine stone. I'm probably far more aggressive in board contact, but a few swipes on each side isn't durable enough for me. I do a "full progression" for my microbevel. Although that's usually only two stones. Usually a medium grit natural and a medium-fine natural (my favorite is washita to aizu). I apply it to both sides. Probably 45-60 degrees inclusive. It's definitely visible. And this is also what I "touch up" in the field. It can be touched up many many times in my experience before needing thinned. Even with a stout microbevel I usually end up needing to thin because I've chipped the knife and need to make repairs long before I've made the micro bevel wide enough to begin impacting performance.

View attachment 160923

It's a little hard for me to tell, but it looks like you almost have that zero ground and then what you're calling the micro-bevel. If so, that to me would just be the edge bevel. Very small, but the edge bevel all the same.

If there is an actual edge bevel that I'm not seeing then what I believe is being presented as your micro-bevel would to me be a tertiary bevel.

In either case, like @Benuser, that wouldn't be what I envision when talking about micro-bevels. Another good reason to make sure we're all on the same page when these topics come up.

 

[Benuser]

Well, I now understand why I had a problem in maintaining my microbevel — one or two strokes on the finest stone — while others did not experience the same. @stringer 's microbevel is very close in size to my primary bevel, and indeed, maintaining that one is quite simple.