Microbevel and stropping

[nortagem]

Hi all,
I have a Suisin HC Gyuto (HK steel, 58HRC). I sharpen it on #1000, #2000 and #6000 stones. Then use a Bark River balsa strop with a #12000 compound.
The process gets the edge razor sharp. However, it doesn't last long at all. Even for a home cook such as myself, after 2-3 meals prep I have to re-strop it.
It's been suggested I try a microbevel, and so I did, and didn't use the strop at all (wasn't sure at what angle to do it).
The edge is not really quite as sharp, but has a nice bite to it and is still cuts very well.
Question is - My knife has a relatively soft steel, and will need re-sharpening/stropping on a regular basis.
So... how exactly do you strop a knife with a microbevel? Wouldn't stropping it at the regular angle destroy the microbevel?
Or are you supposed to strop it at the higher angle now?

Thanks.

 

[psfred]

A smooth knife steel is your friend with a "soft" knife, as the edge is failing from bending, not wearing off or breaking. A few slight passes every time you use the knife will keep it razor sharp for a much longer time.

Stropping is the wrong approach, I think, for soft knives, as you are abrading the edge when it really only needs to be "stood back up" with a steel.

Another reason I prefer harder knives, although that steel does a great job with Chicago Cutlery knives I have not yet replaced in my collection.

Peter

 

[Matus]

Try the micro bevel as Jon suggest - large angle on one side only - on the right side if you are right handed and vice versa. Something like 40 deg on one side and the other about the same as your sharpening angle. Jon speaks about it in one of his videos on youtube ([video=youtube;GB3jkRi1dKs]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GB3jkRi1dKs&list=PLEBF55079F53216AB[/video]). I guess that stopping with some coarser compound could work (you need to respect the microbevel angles), but I did not try that yet.

Otherwise I agree with peter. Softer knives work well with sharpening steel. If you sharpen them on the stones, than do not bother going beyond 2000 - 4000 grit.

Now whether your Suisin HC falls in the category 'soft steel' is something I do not know. 58 HRC would be on the softer side for Japanese knives, but harder than most 'western' knives. Hopefully someone with more experience with the knife in question will chime in.

 

[nortagem]

Surprised you guys are recommending a steel. I've only used it on my German knife (56HRC).
But, either way - the question is about the angle - once you've raised the sharpening angle on the right side to about 40 degrees, wouldn't stropping/steeling it on the regular angle ruin the microbevel?

 

[psfred]

Stropping removes metal, so yes, unless you strop at the same angle as the microbevel you will start removing it.

Get a 20x magnifier and take a look at your blade after sharpening, after use, after stropping, and after steeling. You should be able to see what's going one. If the edge is folding over, you have some choices: Sharpen at a steeper angle to make the edge stronger (15 rather than 12, 20 rather than 15 degrees), strop at your microbevel angle on the correct side, or use a steel, whichever works better.

58 is indeed harder than 56, but typical German steel is often listed as 56-58, so you may be in the same boat, so to speak. You may also need to increase the sharpening angle if the edge if folding over easily, this is a common even in "soft" stainless or carbon steel at 54-56 RC.

This is all why I have come to prefer harder thinner knives -- the edge lasts longer, steeling isn't necessary, and the edge won't go away with board contact.

There is a reason professional meat cutters using carbon knives carry a steel and use it all the time -- it keeps their knives sharp enough to do their job!

Peter

 

[Matus]

There is a reason professional meat cutters using carbon knives carry a steel and use it all the time -- it keeps their knives sharp enough to do their job!
Peter

Indeed - the butcher where we buy meat has sever of those (stainless) knives with yellow plastic handles (large scimitars, boning knives, etc.). He always has a sharpening steel (long and very wide and flat, not a round rod actually ) and I have seen him to use it (just a few strokes at a time) and when I see him cutting meat it is very obvious that his knives are VERY sharp. I would not question his approach - and certainly not when here wielding that 330 scimitar

 

[Benuser]

I wouldn't use a steel. It makes no sense to restore an edge that has failed with its debris. Fatigued steel has to got abraded. A few edge trailing strokes on a 2-3k stone is all you need.
A one-sided microbevel can be useful if you make it on a 2k or so. I do the same with soft carbons.

 

[Benuser]

After that strop on the microbevel. You may maintain it like that for quite a time. Avoid to round between bevel and microbevel, you want the microbevel to be and remain clearly cut.

 

[Matus]

You may maintain it like that for quite a time. Avoid to round between bevel and microbevel, you want the microbevel to be and remain clearly cut.

That is a very good point.

 

[Dardeau]

I'm of the thought that there are two kinds of knife users, the stroppers and the microbevelers.

The stroppers generally are looking for the sharpest and most refined thing they can find, while the microbevelers are looking for something that will be stable over long periods of time.

I can't really imagine stropping a microbevel, other than lightly on the stone you put it on with to make sure it's nice and clean. It wouldn't make any sense to do it with leather and compound. For touch ups just hit the microbevel on the stone and it comes right back.

 

[Kippington]

A lot of good points here. Keep in mind that an abrasive compound on a strop that has a bit of give will add a slight microbevel to the angle you strop at.

It's also worth noting that polished and refined edges, while fun to work with, tend to get dull faster in comparison a coarser finish. The theory goes something along the lines of: due to micro-serrations, a smooth cutting edge has less surface area then a coarse one of equal length. More surface area = more usable edge = longer lasting edge.

Have you considered experimenting with skipping some of your grits up the progression to keep some of the micro-serrations? For example, finishing on your strop directly after using your 2000 grit stone.

 

[nortagem]

A lot of good points here. Keep in mind that an abrasive compound on a strop that has a bit of give will add a slight microbevel to the angle you strop at.

It's also worth noting that polished and refined edges, while fun to work with, tend to get dull faster in comparison a coarser finish. The theory goes something along the lines of: due to micro-serrations, a smooth cutting edge has less surface area then a coarse one of equal length. More surface area = more usable edge = longer lasting edge.

Have you considered experimenting with skipping some of your grits up the progression to keep some of the micro-serrations? For example, finishing on your strop directly after using your 2000 grit stone.

Interesting. I've never considered that. Always progressed with the grit without "skipping" a step.
I must say I see lots of interesting points here - from simply stropping as usual, but with the microbevel high angle, to re-doing the microbevel on the stone without stropping, to your suggestion of skipping the fine grit stone.
Think I'm going to have fun trying them all out!

 

[JDA_NC]

I'm of the thought that there are two kinds of knife users, the stroppers and the microbevelers.

The stroppers generally are looking for the sharpest and most refined thing they can find, while the microbevelers are looking for something that will be stable over long periods of time.

I can't really imagine stropping a microbevel, other than lightly on the stone you put it on with to make sure it's nice and clean. It wouldn't make any sense to do it with leather and compound. For touch ups just hit the microbevel on the stone and it comes right back.

A lot of good points here. Keep in mind that an abrasive compound on a strop that has a bit of give will add a slight microbevel to the angle you strop at.

It's also worth noting that polished and refined edges, while fun to work with, tend to get dull faster in comparison a coarser finish. The theory goes something along the lines of: due to micro-serrations, a smooth cutting edge has less surface area then a coarse one of equal length. More surface area = more usable edge = longer lasting edge.

Have you considered experimenting with skipping some of your grits up the progression to keep some of the micro-serrations? For example, finishing on your strop directly after using your 2000 grit stone.

My best results with edge retention have been using an aggressive 1k stone and then stropping on hard felt. I'll microbevel on both the stone and the felt, but I will also strop at the regular sharpening angle too - if that makes any sense. I feel like it helps especially with burr removal and it ends up giving me crisp, long lasting edges. With PM steel or more wear resistant carbon (like 52100) I can easily go a week without having to hit a stone again. Just a quick touch up on the strop before work. I usually will go microbevel - 2 or 3 passes on the opposite side, and then a 3-2-1-1-1 stropping progression at my normal sharpening angle.

 

[rick alen]

I'm of the thought that there are two kinds of knife users, the stroppers and the microbevelers.

I can't really imagine stropping a microbevel, other than lightly on the stone you put it on with to make sure it's nice and clean. It wouldn't make any sense to do it with leather and compound. For touch ups just hit the microbevel on the stone and it comes right back.

I strop the microbevel on with a stone, but I suppose it can also be done with a loaded strop.

I go for a 2-sided microbevel, just easier for me to duplicate.

I too have gone to stropping for touch ups rather than any kind of steel. I like a very refined edge and used to use the rounded edge of a translucent Arkansas as a sort of ultra-fine ceramic steel. But the effort to splash some water on a stone and do a few stropping strokes is not that much more trouble and the Ark sees less use these days.

You could try using a polished steel for your razor edge, or one of those fancy borocilicate jobs if you can find one. But after a few steelings it's time for stropping on stone or loaded strop.



Rick

Rick