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Mizuno with or without shinogi?

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Barmoley

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Had both Mizuno honyaki and Miz KS, both excellent, but different. Say no to fake shinogi, ofcourse I didn't try one, but still no to fakes. If I was forced to choose Miz KS would probably be the one. B1 on it is excellent and it food release is very good even though it is a relatively thin knife. How they did it I am not sure. Miz honyaki is great too, but being twice the price makes it not as good.
 

Chuckles

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I think I am the previous owner of panda’s miz ks and also Ian’s. It is pretty well spelled out in the previous quote from Koki but I will add that the difference is aesthetic. Having owned two of the non shinogi and one with shinogi any variation in grind is within the tolerances of any handmade product. I would guess they have a pile of ground knives and then polish half to have the faux shinogi.

The grind and heat treat are great. Don’t listen to Panda too much on the profile. It is very good. Panda is just really f’n picky on profile. I have his old Mario honyaki and that profile is perfect. He has been spoiled rotten. ;)
 

TSF415

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Also just used my MizKs today for the first time. Got it a few days after ordering for JCK. The thing is bada$$. Banged it around on the board for a good 2hrs and its definitely a workhorse for me. I will need to spend a little time rounding the spine and maybe? the handle.
 

ian

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Badass is the right word. Might be the knife I sold that I miss the most, even though I’m gravitating toward shorter knives now. I bet the new owner is chuckling at my expense.
 

ian

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I think I am the previous owner of panda’s miz ks and also Ian’s. It is pretty well spelled out in the previous quote from Koki but I will add that the difference is aesthetic. Having owned two of the non shinogi and one with shinogi any variation in grind is within the tolerances of any handmade product. I would guess they have a pile of ground knives and then polish half to have the faux shinogi.

The grind and heat treat are great. Don’t listen to Panda too much on the profile. It is very good. Panda is just really f’n picky on profile. I have his old Mario honyaki and that profile is perfect. He has been spoiled rotten. ;)
Maybe it’s worth saying that the shinogi one you had didn’t have exactly stock geometry. I think I took 4-5 g off when I thinned it. Not a ton, but not nothing, I suppose. It was definitely fatter behind the edge OOTB, enough that it bothered me. Probably it’s still all within the tolerances of a handmade knife though, as you say.
 

Chuckles

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The grind characteristics were still immediately recognizable. The convexity in Mizunos is a little lower toward the edge than in many blades but it is very well done.
 
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Southpaw

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I love my Miz, I went no Shinogi when I custom ordered mine mainly cuz Koki said the convex grind happens more on the non shinogi. I think they have two different people grinding them, one who does the shinogi grind and one who does the non shinogi grind.

You’re right about the spine, it’s the one thing I don’t get. How can u put all that time crafting such a precise knife and leave the spine like it’s a $100 starter knife. Also I have an ebony handle with two white spacers and it’s super bulky. I should’ve gotten a ho wood and replaced it with a Hitohira or a konosuke handle.

I like my Blue 1 250mm DX so much I’m in the process of getting the KS honyaki. I might get a Blue 2 240 honyaki sometime down the line, or one of those suminigashis Koki posts too just cuz I’m so impressed with their work.
 

Carl Kotte

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In light of one particular comment above it might be worth rejoining in the fake shinogi song! ... While ’fake’ obviously has a bad ring to it, don’t let that fool you. You could call it ’luxury’ shinogi and it sounds better. But no matter what you call it, it’s the same thing: and it’s KICK-AZZ
 

Fellax

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I have the 240 ao hagane dx with shinogi, i did't like the finish so i've polished the whole knife with sandpaper.
The shinoghi was only aesthetic.
The knife is very right biased, so you have concave blade on the right and a straight bevel on the left.
Consider also that the iron cladding is very reactive and the patina tend to be brownish.
But overall a great cutter and keeps the edge forever.
 

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Nemo

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Umm... pardon my ignorance, but what's a fake shinogi...?
My take on this is that a "real" shinogi is a distinct angle between the balde road (kireha) and the flat (hira) when viewed in cross-section. You can feel the line as a distinct (somewhat "sharp") angle between the kireha and hira.

A "fake" shinogi is where the angle between hira and kireha is rounded, so there is not a distinct angle. However, the kireha is still distinct from the hira (it is still a wide-bevel) and the finish on the kireha (whether it be a sandblasted factory finish or the finish left by your thinning progression) will highlight this distinction.

A real shinogi presents a shoulder to tall food which can increase wedging. No such issue with a fake shinogi.

Some people also talk about "fake wide bevels". I don't really know what this means. Perhaps where a knife is given a finish to make it look like a wide bevel, but this does not correspond to the actual grind?
 

labor of love

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The old JNS kaeru originally had a “fake”shinogi, my first Miz KS had basically the same thing. Not sure if they’re all like that.
 

cotedupy

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My take on this is that a "real" shinogi is a distinct angle between the balde road (kireha) and the flat (hira) when viewed in cross-section. You can feel the line as a distinct (somewhat "sharp") angle between the kireha and hira.

A "fake" shinogi is where the angle between hira and kireha is rounded, so there is not a distinct angle. However, the kireha is still distinct from the hira (it is still a wide-bevel) and the finish on the kireha (whether it be a sandblasted factory finish or the finish left by your thinning progression) will highlight this distinction.

A real shinogi presents a shoulder to tall food which can increase wedging. No such issue with a fake shinogi.

Some people also talk about "fake wide bevels". I don't really know what this means. Perhaps where a knife is given a finish to make it look like a wide bevel, but this does not correspond to the actual grind?
Ah, I see. I have a knife with that kind of sandblasted finish, I'm not a massive fan but it doesn't particularly bother me.

And also a variation on the theme - an old yanagiba that I've tried to do some restoring of this week where the shinogi line had been kind of rounded out over time, tho I'm getting the definition back slowly.
 

panda

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Okay, so most are recommending to go without a shinogi. Going to wait for panda, see what he is suggesting. Really curious about this knife! By the way, got a mail newsletter from JCK today where he states that the Mizuno suji is JCKs ‘most popular’ (bestselling?) knife?! Did not expect that.
I have yet to try a knife with a shinogi that I actually liked..
 

panda

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I love my Miz, I went no Shinogi when I custom ordered mine mainly cuz Koki said the convex grind happens more on the non shinogi. I think they have two different people grinding them, one who does the shinogi grind and one who does the non shinogi grind.

You’re right about the spine, it’s the one thing I don’t get. How can u put all that time crafting such a precise knife and leave the spine like it’s a $100 starter knife. Also I have an ebony handle with two white spacers and it’s super bulky. I should’ve gotten a ho wood and replaced it with a Hitohira or a konosuke handle.

I like my Blue 1 250mm DX so much I’m in the process of getting the KS honyaki. I might get a Blue 2 240 honyaki sometime down the line, or one of those suminigashis Koki posts too just cuz I’m so impressed with their work.
I wonder how much regular b1 dx differs from the ks.
 

TSF415

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I wonder how much regular b1 dx differs from the ks.
There currently isn't a blue1 without Shinogi other than the ks. There is the blue 2 series without Shinogi. The picture above with Shinogi looks pretty damn good and with not much of a Shinogi.
 

QCDawg

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I have yet to try a knife with a shinogi that I actually liked..
Agreed. Hinoura, nope. Heiji gyuto and nakiri..nosir. I do have a Heiji 210 suji that like.. but I don’t use it for prep. I tolerate a Munetoshi 240.. kinda as a “rough use” knife.
 

panda

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Agreed. Hinoura, nope. Heiji gyuto and nakiri..nosir. I do have a Heiji 210 suji that like.. but I don’t use it for prep. I tolerate a Munetoshi 240.. kinda as a “rough use” knife.
mune cuts great brand new with its concave wide bevel, but becomes a nuisance after a few sharpenings

hate how hinoura cuts, same with heiji. but steel is so good on a heiji its worth to keeping as a project and regrind it
 
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