Moritaka - how long?

Discussion in 'The Kitchen Knife' started by Dave Martell, May 27, 2011.

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  1. Aug 18, 2013 #391

    bkdc

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    Any knife that's ground on a wheel rather than a flat sharpening stone has potential overgrinds. That is practically every Japanese knife. It's easy to see when you're thinning the knife on a whetstone. The most overground knife I ever owned was a Yoshikane hammer-patterened SKD gyuto. It was bad enough that I thought it should never have been sold. And it's only ever an issue if the overgrind is severe where the plane of the grind approaches the center midline of the blade.. Both my Carter HG gyutos have subtle overgrinds. No big deal when it's very stuble. The overgrind on that nakiri photo is just so severe, you wonder whether the sharpener was drunk. I've owned quite a few Moritakas over the years (SIX in all) and none of them were overground. However, they were all damascus customs, and likely they were ground with more care by an expert and not some novice.
     
  2. Aug 18, 2013 #392

    alex9635

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    Moritaka knives are the type of knives that sharped by blade path. As the blade sharpening the blade path will become more flat. And initial flatness does not matter. Some overgrind means that you have to remove less metal. There are no problems.
     
  3. Aug 18, 2013 #393

    alex9635

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    Subject lasts three years and there is only one poor quality photo. Maybe it's time to stop dishonoring of good knives.
     
  4. Aug 18, 2013 #394
    Sorry to have to inform you that you are wrong. At some point, the overgrind will result in a "hole" in the edge, as has been noted many times. The only "cure" is to sharpen past the overgrind. It takes a lot of time and effort and you lose a lot of steel.

    Rick
     
  5. Aug 18, 2013 #395

    berko

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    The problem does exist. Post 93# describes it best imo.
     
  6. Aug 18, 2013 #396

    alex9635

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    It's impossible to make a such hole on the grinding stone.
     
  7. Aug 18, 2013 #397

    Timthebeaver

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    Double you tea eff.
     
  8. Aug 18, 2013 #398

    tripleq

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    LOL!!!!
     
  9. Aug 18, 2013 #399

    jaybett

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    If is possible to over grind an area of a knife, then it's possible to over grind the edge, which would be a problem.

    All knife makers can have issues, not just Moritaka. The only way I know how to lessen the chance of getting a knife without an issue, is to pick up a high end or custom knife. Even then their still might be problems.

    The question is does Moritaka have a bigger issue then other makers? A number of well known and respected forum members have reported over grind issues. So the evidence shows there is a problem.

    To make matters worse, the price point of Moritaka makes them attractive to new users of Japanese knives. To compound the issue the vendor in the U.S. along with those in his camp deny there are any problems.

    Jay
     
  10. Aug 18, 2013 #400

    JBroida

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    overgrind issues.jpg
    here's an drawing of one i had in for sharpening recently.... the outline is not to scale, but it shows the problems. This one was particularly bad. The red circles were overgrinds, but the ones with the blue and green arrows actually caused problems. It could have been fixed by removing a lot of metal, but then it would have been a different knife.

    View attachment 18075
     
  11. Aug 18, 2013 #401

    JBroida

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    also i feel like i should say that the above example just happened to be a moritaka, but i've seen this kind of problem on other handmade knives (heck, i've even seen it on shuns before). Some brands/lines have more of these occurrences than others. As you can see in the lower part of the above image, the overgrinds pass the center of the blade, and in the above case, there was some overlap of how far they went (even though they were in slightly different places). If the overgrinds dont pass the center line of the edge, holes in the edge will not develop, but rather, the bevel will just be uneven. Overgrinds have to be deep and placed just right to cause holes in the edge. These areas could be flattened out over time, but until your edge moves up high enough to pass the point where the overgrinds are deep enough to cause holes, there will be problems with the blade.
     
  12. Aug 18, 2013 #402

    Midsummer

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    I extracted this part of the quote because the over grinds I have seen have been in the cladding and not to the center of the core steel.

    Do uneven bevels cause problems (other than aesthetic )?
     
  13. Aug 18, 2013 #403

    chuck239

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    Guys,

    I have to agree with Alex. Holes like this in the blade face are not from forging or grinding. They are from shipping knives. The pressurized cabins of planes tend to leave large dents and divots in knives.... Obviously....

    -Chuck
     
  14. Aug 18, 2013 #404

    Twistington

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    Really?

     
  15. Aug 19, 2013 #405

    Dave Martell

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    Hey guys, if the Wall Street Journal states that Moritaka is one of the "Five Best Chef's Knives" then who are we to say that they have issues?
     
  16. Aug 19, 2013 #406

    JBroida

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    it depends, but usually its just an uneven looking bevel
     
  17. Aug 19, 2013 #407

    Dave Martell

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    It never occured to me before but maybe I'm using the wrong techniques and/or tools to sharpen Moritaka knives with?

    I see on their website that they recommend using the infamous Gizmo knife sharpening device.


    Hey, if this thing will help me to sharpen overground knives then I'm off to get one....

    precision sharpening device.jpg
     
  18. Aug 19, 2013 #408

    Dave Martell

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    You go ahead and buy their "good knives" and support them with your honor. The rest of us, who have experience with these "good knives", will stop "dishonoring of good knives" once they start making them "good".
     
  19. Aug 19, 2013 #409

    Twistington

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    Funny how a Moritaka would not be able to do what the cleaver in the picture is doing there... :D
     
  20. Aug 19, 2013 #410

    Dave Martell

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    The only thing that could be better about that picture is if that cleaver under the stool was a Moritaka...but then the stool would likely be leaning from the overgrind. :D
     
  21. Aug 19, 2013 #411

    maxim

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    Sorry to say to you but my moritaka with hole in the edge did not had that problem as described by Jon at all. It was a lot more serious. As always on my own knives i flatten the main bevel totally and everything was fine for a year.

    Then one day sharpened/thinned my knife wup and there was a dent/hole in the edge. :dontknow: Like a hard steel hagane only had a bend only. Very hard to describe as the dent was not only on one side but on both in the same place.
     
  22. Aug 19, 2013 #412

    Seb

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    Any idea why Moritaka Hamono have so far failed to heed all of these attempts at constructive feedback? Or is this kind of issue widespread with hand-made knives and are they just being picked on here when lots of other makers do it too?

    On a sidenote, I just grabbed my custom-order 260mm 'extra-thin' Blue#2 Moritaka gyuto and peered along its mirror-polished bevels and I can't see any 'irregularities' anywhere near the edge (but I see a lot of 'waviness' higher up the sides) - does this mean mine is ok, or am I just kidding myself? I have had this'n for a coupla years now and used it less than 10 times because I finally realised I don't need/like such a long knife - so I think I can fairly say that I don't really have any skin in this game, I don't really give a wank, to be honest! ;)
     
  23. Aug 19, 2013 #413

    JBroida

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    yeah, the problems arent always as i described... i was just giving an example of one i had seen recently. I see problems like yours too from time to time.

    @seb this happens from all hand made makers, but problems occur most frequently with a few makers... i know of 3-4 that i see on a regular basis with problems like this. I sometimes see moritakas with no problems at all (and to me, a knife with some high an low spots that dont cause problems is still ok). I also see a lot of shun knives with serious grind issues. I think the most important thing is being able to see and recognize problems (learning to do this takes time and practice), or buying from someone you trust. Anyways, the point is that its not just moritaka, but at the same time, its not necessarily unfair to say what has been said for the most part. In all honesty, however, i see just as many if not more problems with shun (7 out of 10 that i see have serious grind problems... none that cause holes in the edges, but serious enough where the bevel looks more than just messed up due to high and low spots... even new ones out of the box).
     
  24. Aug 19, 2013 #414

    maxim

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    I have seen some other knives with that issue. But not as many or as bad as Moritakas. waviness above is very common even Shigefusa KU knives have it so nothing to do with what been shown here.
    Many users will just ignore it or live with it (nothing wrong with that)
    It will just be a problem when you send knife like that To Dave, Jon or me :D Then we will call up and say hey we can not fix that !
    And thats why i think this thread exist
     
  25. Aug 19, 2013 #415

    pkjames

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    I really hate overgrind! it stops me from getting an even kasumi finish, and evening out the bevel takes FOREVER! But it does happen on almost all the grinding wheel finished knives, just how serious the problem is, having a overgrind all the way down to the bevel, IMO, is totally unacceptable.
     
  26. Aug 19, 2013 #416

    berko

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    One of my zakuris had an overgrind near the edge that actualy caused a hole. But it wasnt that big, so i simply sharpened it out. Took like 15 mins on a 1k Shapton pro.
     
  27. Aug 19, 2013 #417

    Dave Martell

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    Just to clarify....

    High and low spots are only a temporary inconvenience in appearance, the overgrind that is a problem is one that goes into the edge and grows (gets worse) over time as the knife is normally sharpened to the point where a hole is formned and can not be fixed without modifying the knife into something other than what is was meant to be.
     
  28. Aug 19, 2013 #418

    jaybett

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    An excellent summary of the problem.

    Jay
     
  29. Aug 20, 2013 #419

    SpikeC

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    I don't know why anyone bothers responding to trolls.
     
  30. Aug 20, 2013 #420
    It was a slow day.
     

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