Moritaka - how long?

Kitchen Knife Forums

Help Support Kitchen Knife Forums:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.
It doesn't matter what Ken or anyone else says to deflect attention away from the matter at hand because the matter at hand will remain as long as these knives are sold at this level of quality that we're seeing.

Fact - if the problems disappear from Moritaka knives then so will the talk too.
 
The appeal of Moritaka and Takeda was getting a great cutting knife, at a low price. The trade off was a rough fit and finish, and other defects. As prices have risen, it gets harder and harder to brush off, the roughness of the knives.

Part of the problem is the vendor is not setting reasonable expectations for these knives, especially the Moritakas. They are priced at a point that makes them attractive to new users. While these knives are better suited to experienced users, who can work around the issues.

Another part of the problem is Ken's excusing the roughness of these knives as a form of Wabi-Sabi. He has also suggested, in his posts, that people who have an issues with these knives are not precise sharpeners. Whatever that means.

I think I understand, Dave's unwillingness to sharpen an overground knife. If the problem appears while he is sharpening the knife, then he is on the hook to replace it.

How bad is it, if a knife has a hole in it? It isn't something I want to happen. If it does though, I don't see myself throwing the knife out. Unless it happens on a slicer, it seems like it would be a minor annoyance.

Jay
 
How bad is it, if a knife has a hole in it? It isn't something I want to happen. If it does though, I don't see myself throwing the knife out. Unless it happens on a slicer, it seems like it would be a minor annoyance.



Hi Jay, I'll take a stab and answer this from my perspective, from what I've seen anyway. remember though, I'm only commenting on what I've actually worked on (sharpened), most I rejected without ever sharpening (I obviously do that so that I won't get burnt again) but most (not all though) of those are simply indicating the potential for a problem during sharpening although many are clearly problematic.

So what happens is that the bevels are ground down too close (and too heavily) towards the edge - this is the overgrind. The hole on the edge can come from Moritaka OTB (like we saw on the nakiri above) or it can be brought on by sharpening up into the blade height (as is natural to do as we sharpen). The hidden overgrind is the tricky situation because it often doesn't show but very little at first, then a little more, then more, and then wham the edge disaapears in this section and this happens (as we sharpen) because there is simply no steel left up above the cutting edge - Moritaka removes too much here and as we all know you can remove more steel but you can't put any back on. The end result shows itself in the food prep, the food will be cleanly cut in some sections and not in others (this is the accordion effect) because some sections (the holes) don't make contact with the cutting board.

The fix for this condition is only afforded at the factory level at the time of production. The maker needs to re-think the way that they approach the cutting edge with the hammer but more so with the grinding wheel. I say the grinding wheel is what's causing the most damage because Moritakas aren't very thin knives above the ground in bevels indicating that they are left thick from the forging stage and then have the bevels ground on thin after the fact. It's my opinion that the person doing the heavy wheel grinding is the cause of these holes being created.
 
So Dave I'm guessing then that they have a little production line type thing going on then so it might be that one of the Moritaka's does the forging and shaping ?? ( sorry I know very little about the manufacturing sequence) and then the grinding/sharpening is possibly left to an apprentice/semi skilled (or not) worker? As I've said before the supreme Damascus gyuto I have is well made and the finish/grind is to my eyes fine (I've had a square/straight edge all over it lol). Could it be that these more expensive knives are made to a bit higher spec and/or ground/sharpened accordingly. Unless you've seen lots of faults in this line too?

I must admit even after these posts and the obvious problems I'm still attracted to Moritaka knives, I've looked at the other similar knives and will purchase a takeda. Tanaka's aren't always that easy to come by (kurouchi) and it seems can have problems and I've looked at the Zakuri stocked by JKI but to be honest don't find Octagonal handles at all comfortable (the Rosewood D shaped handles on the Moritaka's I have fit perfectly and are another reason for buying), and tbh I really don't like the huge Zakuri logo etched into the knives blades it totally spoils the appearance for me (I know a bit shallow lol).
 
I hear what you are saying. That's why I'd like to research enough to buy a Honda Civic and drive it for 5 years rather then 2. I wouldn't purchase a knife that will develop a hole in the edge any more then I'd Purchase a Toyota with faulty parts.

I drive a miracle blade that I snapped in half when it didn't stay sharp forever.


The pricing on many Moritakas is right there, just above Tojiro DPs, the last I looked. For the fun of exploring this option, if you could get a knife that was in this price range an it gave you great performance for two years of abuse/service, and then crapped out (the hole came through), would you still buy the knife? Arguably, that's a better "bang for the buck" than many knives we buy that end up getting broken/stolen/pushed into a drawer, isn't it?
I think with this way of thinking, it's safe to call a Moritaka a Hyundai Accent. They look pretty good, are affordable, but we realize it's just going to hold us over until we can get the BMW. However, in the meantime, it's actually a pretty solid little performer with a low initial investment.
If you are curious, I think I drive a Masamoto KS with an ebony handle and dark, two tone buffalo ferrule.
 
So Dave I'm guessing then that they have a little production line type thing going on then so it might be that one of the Moritaka's does the forging and shaping ?? ( sorry I know very little about the manufacturing sequence) and then the grinding/sharpening is possibly left to an apprentice/semi skilled (or not) worker? As I've said before the supreme Damascus gyuto I have is well made and the finish/grind is to my eyes fine (I've had a square/straight edge all over it lol). Could it be that these more expensive knives are made to a bit higher spec and/or ground/sharpened accordingly. Unless you've seen lots of faults in this line too?


I can't recall a single overgrind in the supreme damascus series. The only problem I had with this line was that one time when I was thinning the blade and the 1/2" tall core popped out of the cladding. I think this series has shown itself to be ground a whole lot better than their standard line is (whatever that's called).



I must admit even after these posts and the obvious problems I'm still attracted to Moritaka knives, I've looked at the other similar knives and will purchase a takeda. Tanaka's aren't always that easy to come by (kurouchi) and it seems can have problems and I've looked at the Zakuri stocked by JKI but to be honest don't find Octagonal handles at all comfortable (the Rosewood D shaped handles on the Moritaka's I have fit perfectly and are another reason for buying), and tbh I really don't like the huge Zakuri logo etched into the knives blades it totally spoils the appearance for me (I know a bit shallow lol).

I personally have sharpened (many) hundreds of Takedas over the years and I love these knives. They're super thin, easy & fun to sharpen, and attractive to my eyes. The only flaws that can be noted from Takedas are that they're often flexible (as in can be bent and stay bent) and the gyutos often have either too flat a belly or too curved a belly. The price point is higher than Moritaka but they're such better knives that they deserve the higher price.

I don't know much about the Zakuri kurouchi knives but if Jon (JKI) carries them I'd have confidence in them.
 
zakuri, like all hand forged knives, will have high and low spots. There's a difference between a high and/or low spot and a hole (read- a really really deep low spot)
 
I'm very new to this but do love the more rustic looking knives, I'm seriously contemplating the Zakuri knives Jon but (and this is very superficial I know) don't much care for the Zakuri logo/name stamped/etched onto the blades - its not exactly discreet other than that they look like a nice alternative. Although as I said the Moritaka supreme damascus knives "seem" to be much better finished. Thanks Dave for the informative answer!
 
Zakuri is often noted as being thick. Is this accurate? Is it thinner behind the edge? Do they accept custom orders for thinner blades?

Seems these could fill a void....
 
i can start a thread on Zakuri in my forum if you would like, but i didnt really want to cloud up this thread. my main point was hand made stuff is handmade... there will be variances in the grind, high spots, and low spots... but at some point, its just an error. There's a difference between wabi-sabi and messed up.
 
Here ya go....
RIMG0498.jpg
RIMG0497.jpg
Some nasty surprises turned up while thinning.
A giant divot adjacent to what looks like some heavy handed forging.
Ain't no one can defend this kind of workmanship.
 
That sucks, no doubt.

Can a straightedge be used perpendicular to the edge to see some of these defects prior to sharpening/thinning or does any curve in the blade prevent it? Would this be something that the forger would know was going on or could it be caught at whatever QC level there is/isn't?

If the average Joe Schmo didn't ever thin the knife would it ever be noticeable?

Just curious........
 
Guys:

I've been thinking a lot about this from a material standpoint, not that I'm a metallurgist or even a science guy. But, does any of this also have to do with the inconsistent density of the steel in the knife? I would imagine that the more you hammer a steel, the thinner it gets, but also, does the steel get more dense?

I know that overgrinds are hard to detect from personal experience. But, the reason why I'm bringing this up is because if we have, what are essentially, dents in the blade from hammering, are some of these dents/ovegrinds also happening because the steel isn't dense and when you sharpen, it's pulling more steel off than it should? The thing that has surprised me most is that people have been finding this divots when they start sharpening, not initially when they purchase them. And that huge divot from thinning should have been apparent at least somewhat when sharpening, which is when I've noticed overgrinds on my knives.

To me, it would seem that something as large as the overgrind/divot/whatever you want to call it above would have been slightly apparent upon inspection. But if it wasn't, is there something else going on here as well - that certain parts of these knives haven't been hammered or forged well at all, and the steel is weak at certain spots? Because, DAMN, that divot in the second picture is ridiculous.

If what I'm saying is idiotic, please simply :nutskick:.
 
Thanks.

So really the only two thing that can alter the steel structure is the heat treatment?
 
Thanks.

So really the only two thing that can alter the steel structure is the heat treatment?
I will let to others, more competent, to answer this very general question if you don't mind! All I can say is that for centuries people have believed hammering could create a denser (?) structure and that since at the least the twenties it's obvious nothing happens at that level at all.
 
At Least there are a couple sharpenings left in that knife. Once you hit the hole, see about converting it into a suji, assuming it is a gyuto.
 
At Least there are a couple sharpenings left in that knife. Once you hit the hole, see about converting it into a suji, assuming it is a gyuto.

x2. if it's a Suji, maybe convert it to a cheese wire.
 
Hahaha. Now that's thinking outside the box!
 
Guys:

I've been thinking a lot about this from a material standpoint, not that I'm a metallurgist or even a science guy. But, does any of this also have to do with the inconsistent density of the steel in the knife? I would imagine that the more you hammer a steel, the thinner it gets, but also, does the steel get more dense?

I know that overgrinds are hard to detect from personal experience. But, the reason why I'm bringing this up is because if we have, what are essentially, dents in the blade from hammering, are some of these dents/ovegrinds also happening because the steel isn't dense and when you sharpen, it's pulling more steel off than it should? The thing that has surprised me most is that people have been finding this divots when they start sharpening, not initially when they purchase them. And that huge divot from thinning should have been apparent at least somewhat when sharpening, which is when I've noticed overgrinds on my knives.

To me, it would seem that something as large as the overgrind/divot/whatever you want to call it above would have been slightly apparent upon inspection. But if it wasn't, is there something else going on here as well - that certain parts of these knives haven't been hammered or forged well at all, and the steel is weak at certain spots? Because, DAMN, that divot in the second picture is ridiculous.

If what I'm saying is idiotic, please simply :nutskick:.


It's certainly possible to have hard and soft spots from the heat treatment.
It's possible to overheat the steel so much as to lose carbon in a certain area of the blade, especially when working with something this thin.
Grain growth from improper heat cycles could also lead to issues.

but the physical impact of a hammer has nothing to do with it.


a "properly" heat treated blade should have NO soft spots or abnormally hard spots in or near the edge.
 
Back
Top