inferno
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And info on the new pros?? do these crack too? i have a feeling when naniwa released the almost identical pro versions they made them so they wouldn't crack. Thats at least what i would have done.
Naniwa Chosera 3000 cracking?
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The Naniwa Pros are thinner and unmounted, can dry more evenly and so they do.
me too. 3k namiwa pn: P3000-001K826 used over a year. fantastic stone
Grunt173
Senior Member
What do we mean by new Naniwa Pro ? Did they do something different to them since I bought mine a year ago? I have a 400,800 and 3000 that all have those spider web cracks.All used as spray and go and laid on their sides in a rack to dry. I'm here to tell ya,they crack.
kwk1
Well-Known Member
I'm guessing Chosera mounted on a base are the old ones and non-mounted with a plastic case to use as a base are the new ones.
Grunt173
Senior Member
I have the non mounted ones.I keep reading that the new ones do not crack and since I have the unmounted Naniwa Pros that are cracked,I just wanted to throw that out there in case some believe what they read.
Keith Sinclair
Senior Member
Bought a couple 10,000 grits a used Chosera that had a chip on it got it cheap. While I had it developed spiderweb cracks eventually over the entire surface. Didn't effect the sharpening though. Other was the Naniwa Super If you want a high polish was good for that. I sold both of these stones because liked the Kitayama for my single bevels & at the time preferred stones on wooden bases. Both 10,000 had no base.
Still have a Chosera 400 one of the better coarse stones I have used. Very dish resistant for such a coarse stone.
These days use gesshin soakers. Like that you can get xtra large in the 400 & IK suits my needs perfectly. Like my old big Kings. I have numerous medium stones, the King Hyper is a good one.
Still have a Chosera 400 one of the better coarse stones I have used. Very dish resistant for such a coarse stone.
These days use gesshin soakers. Like that you can get xtra large in the 400 & IK suits my needs perfectly. Like my old big Kings. I have numerous medium stones, the King Hyper is a good one.
kwk1
Well-Known Member
I'm sure I read too that the new ones without base crack.
If they didn't, I would have got them instead of the Chosera with base.
I figured if either are susceptible to cracking, I might as well get the ones with bases and cleaning stones.
Grunt173
Senior Member
I like the Chosera stones for their feel and effectiveness so when a deal came along for a Choe with bases in the 400,800 and 3000,I purchased them so they are still unused and in their original boxes and never taken out of the boxes actually.They are out of harms way on my top shelf.They are there to MAYBE be used at a later date or sold,one or the other.
kwk1
Well-Known Member
So you have a cracked set of Pros, and a new set of Choseras. Been so many posts here, are your Pros cracked but still usable? I specifically got the choseras from reports that they have good feedback. I was almost set on Shapton Glass then I heard they have poor feedback. Being new to sharpening I didn't think the SG would have been the best choice for me. If mine fair well I'll pick up a 400 later on as well.
Grunt173
Senior Member
Oh yes,even though my 400,800 and 3k choes have spider webbing cracks,they in no way affect the feel or sharpening.You can't even feel them.I just know they are there throughout the stone as they appear when you wet the stone.
kwk1
Well-Known Member
Perfect!
MashMaster
Member
Anybody heard about a Zwilling Kramer Glass Stones cracking. I am thinking they might be a good option, although the recipe his according to some slightly different 5K better harder more abrasive less polishing, 3K softer not as good. I wonder if you adhered a series of professional stones to glass plates if that would help. Strength so less flex both in pressure on the holder but also expansion and contraction when wet / dry cycle.
They do exhibit some edge cracking or spider webbing, just not as obvious as Chosera. Makes no difference while using, can't feel a thing with razors.
MashMaster
Member
Magnesium oxychloride (MOC) stones, it is not the fact they are water soluble, although I had read that a number of places. It is the hydration of free MgO causes an increase in its volume, thereby leading to the generation of cracks
Some reading for those who care, anybody that has more than high school chemistry will get more out of it than me.
https://www.jocpr.com/articles/the-application-review-of-magnesium-oxychloride-cement.pdf
Using the Egyptian magnesite for preparation of some types of grinding stones
A nice review of https://pubs.acs.org/doi/pdf/10.1021/acs.chemrev.5b00463
Checkout section 5.2 Chlorocarbonate: Relation to Strength and Durability
Do if you have low humidity and use the stones dry they should never crack, back in the real world this splash and go should be called a mist and go and like your powder should be kept dry.
knivesandtools have the most pragmatic advice. ...
For that reason we strongly advise against exposing magnesium bound sharpening stones to (a lot of) water. If you do decide to sharpen using water it is important to properly let the stone dry after use. First you need to rinse off the remaining slurry. Please note: rinse it off with a little bit of water, do not submerge the stone. Afterwards dry the stone with a microfiber cloth. This material is great because it easily absorbs water.
slowly let it dry
Now it is key to let the sharpening stone dry gradually. In this case there is no sense in rushing things. Put the stone on its side to make sure any remaining water can drip off. Make sure the stone won’t dry in the sun or on the heater. After all, the heat of the sun or heater will cause the surface to dry faster than the core of the stone. The tension that is created could cause small cracks in the sharpening layer. We call these cracks hairline cracks. You can reduce the chance of these cracks by wrapping the stone in the microfiber cloth you also used to dry off the stone. As a result the surface and the rest of the stone dry at approximately the same speed.
Is it a bad thing if you do happen do come across hairline cracks? No, it isn’t. A smooth sharpening stone will, of course, look better and water could seep in the cracks which means that it could take a little longer for the stone to dry. But considering the fact that you already need to be patient when it comes to drying the stone, this shouldn’t be an issue. The hairline cracks will – as mentioned before – not affect the sharpening results, which is also something Naniwa confirmed. However, if these cracks do affect your sharpening process you could, of course, always appeal to the guarantee Naniwa hands out with their stones.
I felt cracks not spider cracking and only with edge leading strokes.
Some reading for those who care, anybody that has more than high school chemistry will get more out of it than me.
https://www.jocpr.com/articles/the-application-review-of-magnesium-oxychloride-cement.pdf
Using the Egyptian magnesite for preparation of some types of grinding stones
A nice review of https://pubs.acs.org/doi/pdf/10.1021/acs.chemrev.5b00463
Checkout section 5.2 Chlorocarbonate: Relation to Strength and Durability
Do if you have low humidity and use the stones dry they should never crack, back in the real world this splash and go should be called a mist and go and like your powder should be kept dry.
knivesandtools have the most pragmatic advice. ...
For that reason we strongly advise against exposing magnesium bound sharpening stones to (a lot of) water. If you do decide to sharpen using water it is important to properly let the stone dry after use. First you need to rinse off the remaining slurry. Please note: rinse it off with a little bit of water, do not submerge the stone. Afterwards dry the stone with a microfiber cloth. This material is great because it easily absorbs water.
slowly let it dry
Now it is key to let the sharpening stone dry gradually. In this case there is no sense in rushing things. Put the stone on its side to make sure any remaining water can drip off. Make sure the stone won’t dry in the sun or on the heater. After all, the heat of the sun or heater will cause the surface to dry faster than the core of the stone. The tension that is created could cause small cracks in the sharpening layer. We call these cracks hairline cracks. You can reduce the chance of these cracks by wrapping the stone in the microfiber cloth you also used to dry off the stone. As a result the surface and the rest of the stone dry at approximately the same speed.
Is it a bad thing if you do happen do come across hairline cracks? No, it isn’t. A smooth sharpening stone will, of course, look better and water could seep in the cracks which means that it could take a little longer for the stone to dry. But considering the fact that you already need to be patient when it comes to drying the stone, this shouldn’t be an issue. The hairline cracks will – as mentioned before – not affect the sharpening results, which is also something Naniwa confirmed. However, if these cracks do affect your sharpening process you could, of course, always appeal to the guarantee Naniwa hands out with their stones.
I felt cracks not spider cracking and only with edge leading strokes.
I went through 3 3000 grit base mounted Chosera's before I gave up on them and went with SG, the first cracked in half and the other two just spider cracked, I did not keep them long enough to break. I've had my 800 for a few years now with no problems but I really miss that 3000 it's a great stone, I've been thinking of trying another one.
MashMaster
Member
How do you find the SG stones. I have never used them. I know different grits some will be better than others. Just general feedback
inferno
( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°) <*))))><
i have the 800 and 2k NP. the 2k has no cracks but the 800 is starting to show a few. the stone has never been soaked, only used as a splash and go.
if the kramers are similar to these then they will also crack sooner or later. its just how these types of stones work.
stones that dont crack easily. shapton pro and glass. besters/imanishis dont seem to crack easily either.
ceraxes/traditionals dont crack afaik. but these are of course soakers.
of all the stones i've tried i like the the shaptons the best. they are the most all round, splash and go, slow wear. it just works. and they are relatively inexpensive too. my favorites are the 220 pro/glass, 500 double thick glass, 1k pro, 2k pro, 2k glass, 3k glass, 4k glass, 6k gray glass, 8k pro, 12k pro. have not tried the 10k glass but i guess its good too.
if the kramers are similar to these then they will also crack sooner or later. its just how these types of stones work.
stones that dont crack easily. shapton pro and glass. besters/imanishis dont seem to crack easily either.
ceraxes/traditionals dont crack afaik. but these are of course soakers.
of all the stones i've tried i like the the shaptons the best. they are the most all round, splash and go, slow wear. it just works. and they are relatively inexpensive too. my favorites are the 220 pro/glass, 500 double thick glass, 1k pro, 2k pro, 2k glass, 3k glass, 4k glass, 6k gray glass, 8k pro, 12k pro. have not tried the 10k glass but i guess its good too.
I like them allot but they have a different feel to them, they are fast but they don’t last as long as the Choseras. The Choseras I have tried (800, 3000) feel very smooth to me and have great feedback but I really don't have anything other than the SG to compare them to.
VICTOR J CREAZZI
Senior Member
My 3k Chosera is riddled with white lines where the cracks used to be. The previous cracks seemed to fill in with dissolved binder and the cracks healed them selves. I was hoping that my 5k Chosera would do the same thing, but it wasn't changing. I started using my well water which is saturated with soluble minerals on my 5k to see if that would fill in the cracks. It's a slow enough process that it's hard to tell whether it's working, but it seems to be.
I have zero cracking on my 1k Chosera and 600 Pro.
I have zero cracking on my 1k Chosera and 600 Pro.
dafox
Senior Member
Still a mystery to me why some have problems with this and others dont. I have Choseras 400, 800, and 3000 base mounted, use them a fair bit, I even use the 3000 under other thinner stones and have never had any problems. Hmmm...
VICTOR J CREAZZI
Senior Member
Well, my 3k arrived used with cracks and healed itself. My 600 and 1k never had problems.
So you're going to have to buy a 5k 'For science' as we live in the same climate.
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Not sure whether one misses so much when skipping the 5k. I've found the Chosera soft, and lacking in tactile response. Had to guess whether a burr was gone. Very different in that regard than the other ones.
If you aren't afraid of a spider web, better consider the Naniwa Junpaku 8k 'snow-white'. Lot of feedback, offering a remarkable refined kind of bite. I use it with carbons after the NP3k. No real need, just fun. And for maintenance.
If you aren't afraid of a spider web, better consider the Naniwa Junpaku 8k 'snow-white'. Lot of feedback, offering a remarkable refined kind of bite. I use it with carbons after the NP3k. No real need, just fun. And for maintenance.
I used to soak NP400 about 5 minutes before using it, every time after couple initial tests. Always abundantly rinsed or briefly soaked NP800 before using it. NP3K rinsed enough. Always rinsed them clean after use, too, or briefly soaked again. Used hot water more than once in doing so. Always proceeded with a 10 minutes soak first time use OOTB. You could catch me flattening any of them immersed in water completely. Sharpen with them laying on a wet cloth. NP800 has been with me for close to a year now, and used more than any other stone.
One thing is that they are always uniformly exposed to water when I use them. Another thing is that they are never in a place that doesn't get at least basic air circulation. These stones still feel cooler than they should after 12-24 hours of drying open air depending on how fine they are and relative climate. You can feel it. I wouldn't put any of them to be dry within 48 hours after use, wouldn't be surprised to learn it's even longer, wouldn't change a thing to my system would I learn they all get fully dry within 24 no matter the climate.
They are dense stones, but not almost water repellent like Shapton Pro. They take some of any amount of water in, and don't readily let it out. Makes them tremendously nice feeling S&Gs. Might make them very vulnerable to enclosed spaces, unthorough cleaning (some layer of mud still clinging on the sides or worse surface will prevent normal drying to some extent I guess) and more arid climates possibly. Avoiding any longer soak than 5 minutes in normal use is probably warranted with magnesia bound stones like these - but I would be inclined to say, water in copious amounts or relatively short lived submersion is not a problem of itself. Believing they are dry because they look or even feel so I would say is much more dangerous. My experience being far from an arid climate, in this case I would be very very tempted to have them dry within a damp cloth.
I'm not all convinced by the advice I often read of using minimal water, only on the sharpening surface side if possible. Rather, I would always have them have water uniformly from all sides. Even where the center will take longer to dry, having the outer layer damp all around will help with regularizing the relative humidity all through the stone as it dries from outside to inside, a bit like wrapping in a damp cloth in arid climates...
One thing is that they are always uniformly exposed to water when I use them. Another thing is that they are never in a place that doesn't get at least basic air circulation. These stones still feel cooler than they should after 12-24 hours of drying open air depending on how fine they are and relative climate. You can feel it. I wouldn't put any of them to be dry within 48 hours after use, wouldn't be surprised to learn it's even longer, wouldn't change a thing to my system would I learn they all get fully dry within 24 no matter the climate.
They are dense stones, but not almost water repellent like Shapton Pro. They take some of any amount of water in, and don't readily let it out. Makes them tremendously nice feeling S&Gs. Might make them very vulnerable to enclosed spaces, unthorough cleaning (some layer of mud still clinging on the sides or worse surface will prevent normal drying to some extent I guess) and more arid climates possibly. Avoiding any longer soak than 5 minutes in normal use is probably warranted with magnesia bound stones like these - but I would be inclined to say, water in copious amounts or relatively short lived submersion is not a problem of itself. Believing they are dry because they look or even feel so I would say is much more dangerous. My experience being far from an arid climate, in this case I would be very very tempted to have them dry within a damp cloth.
I'm not all convinced by the advice I often read of using minimal water, only on the sharpening surface side if possible. Rather, I would always have them have water uniformly from all sides. Even where the center will take longer to dry, having the outer layer damp all around will help with regularizing the relative humidity all through the stone as it dries from outside to inside, a bit like wrapping in a damp cloth in arid climates...
Kawa
Senior Member
Have a chosera 600 and professional 400. So not the higher gritt, which seem to crack more often.
I've been using both stones for over 3 years now, they have both seen about 100 knives so far.
I soak them both for about 10 minutes, completely under water. Sometimes I even forget about them and the soaking might be closer to 30 minutes.
Which means they saw about 100 times soaking/drying cycles.
Neither one of them has cracked so far, not even hairline cracks. Rational enough to admit this might be pure luck.
What I do however, is dry them very carefully.
I have a huge history in the bowlingsport and I've learned (the hard way) that hard, purous materials never like tension differences in a short timespan (meaning, hot to cold of visa versa in a short time). I've also learned you need to dry those things slowly and evenly.
I dry my stones by putting them diagonally against the wall, in about 45 degrees angle. Therefor I have the least amount of contact with stuff, so air can reach the biggest surface.
More importanly, I turn my stones very often. When I put a wet stone against the wall, you can see that in 5 minutes the water has gone to the lowest point, meaning the concact point at the table (not the wall), and the bottomside of the stone is wet while the topside already starts to dry. So I turn my stone that way, that the wettest point becomes the highest point (contact with the wall).
My theorie is the remaining water can flow through the stone this way more evenly, instead of having a low point where all the water assembles/ runs towards.
Think about it, no matter how you put your stone (on the side or flat), if you dont turn your stone you will always have that lowest point which has the most water for the longest time.
I keep flipping them for quite some time, first time after 5 minutes, then after 10, then after 20 etc. Untill they are dry.
If it doesnt help, it doesnt harm you either i guess.
I've been using both stones for over 3 years now, they have both seen about 100 knives so far.
I soak them both for about 10 minutes, completely under water. Sometimes I even forget about them and the soaking might be closer to 30 minutes.
Which means they saw about 100 times soaking/drying cycles.
Neither one of them has cracked so far, not even hairline cracks. Rational enough to admit this might be pure luck.
What I do however, is dry them very carefully.
I have a huge history in the bowlingsport and I've learned (the hard way) that hard, purous materials never like tension differences in a short timespan (meaning, hot to cold of visa versa in a short time). I've also learned you need to dry those things slowly and evenly.
I dry my stones by putting them diagonally against the wall, in about 45 degrees angle. Therefor I have the least amount of contact with stuff, so air can reach the biggest surface.
More importanly, I turn my stones very often. When I put a wet stone against the wall, you can see that in 5 minutes the water has gone to the lowest point, meaning the concact point at the table (not the wall), and the bottomside of the stone is wet while the topside already starts to dry. So I turn my stone that way, that the wettest point becomes the highest point (contact with the wall).
My theorie is the remaining water can flow through the stone this way more evenly, instead of having a low point where all the water assembles/ runs towards.
Think about it, no matter how you put your stone (on the side or flat), if you dont turn your stone you will always have that lowest point which has the most water for the longest time.
I keep flipping them for quite some time, first time after 5 minutes, then after 10, then after 20 etc. Untill they are dry.
If it doesnt help, it doesnt harm you either i guess.
