Miyamoto Musashi
Well-Known Member
This might be a silly question, but has anyone ever found any utilities that naturals can offer on monosteel knives? (outside of edge sharpening) I’m asking purely out of curiosity.
Thanks!
Thanks!
Naturals on monosteel
- Thread starter Miyamoto Musashi
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If the blade has banding naturals could help bringing it out?
Naturals like Arks are good splash & go’s, dry quickly, and basically do not dish. For these reasons they are good travel stones. I have seen it reported that edges finished on natural stones last longer than edges finished on synthetic stones. I cannot verify if that is true or not.
Se1ryu
Senior Member
Forgive me for my bad drawing. As you can see the left side is synthetic stone and right side is natural stone. On synthetic stones the grain will be consistent and even which will produce an edge that are even and consistent like in the bottom of the picture.
on the natural stone you will find grain that small and large or compact into two and that create an edge like in the bottom of the picture on the right side.
So when you using natural stone some part of the blade edge will get dull but you still have some tooth on the edge to cut thru food. You don't lose the toothynes on your knife edge when sharpen a knife with natural stone because of the different grain size contains in natural stone.
But keep in mind that not all natural stone are the same, even if mined in same place or from the same maker, they will give you a different results. It's a bit difficult to get the right one and we need to try every stone which is not cheap. So I stick with synthetic stones for now. I will definitely try some good natural stone from KKF members soon. It's good for Polishing my single bevel
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By 'outside of edge sharpening' do you mean polishing...?
The answer is yes; a lot of the Japanese natural stones we use are really originally for polishing katana and the like, and the construction is often monosteel. As people have said above - they'd be used for highlighting hamon or details and layers in the steel.
If you mean thinning behind the edge then the answer is: no, probably not. Coarse grit natural stones are not really worth bothering with imo. Washitas and Turkish can do it to some extent though.
Not to be a smart ass but
many Japanese swords are not made of monosteel. The magic is inside the blade.Attachments
Not to be a smart ass but
Haha... I know! Perhaps I should have said 'sometimes', rather than 'often'.
Miyamoto Musashi
Well-Known Member
Thank you very much! Yes I’ve heard before that sharpening on natural stones can elongate the life of an edge but seeing it drawn out like that made me understand why.Forgive me for my bad drawing. As you can see the left side is synthetic stone and right side is natural stone. On synthetic stones the grain will be consistent and even which will produce an edge that are even and consistent like in the bottom of the picture.
on the natural stone you will find grain that small and large or compact into two and that create an edge like in the bottom of the picture on the right side.
So when you using natural stone some part of the blade edge will get dull but you still have some tooth on the edge to cut thru food. You don't lose the toothynes on your knife edge when sharpen a knife with natural stone because of the different grain size contains in natural stone.
But keep in mind that not all natural stone are the same, even if mined in same place or from the same maker, they will give you a different results. It's a bit difficult to get the right one and we need to try every stone which is not cheap. So I stick with synthetic stones for now. I will definitely try some good natural stone from KKF members soon. It's good for Polishing my single bevel
I might add that fully polishing a monosteel knife, honyaki especially, is a high level task with bench stones.
I’d say to all but the most experienced user, bench stones are almost useless alone in achieving a clean polish over the entire blade.
But bevel polishing? Oh yes. Jnats are very useful. As well as some other incredible homegrown/found natural stones sourced by forum members.
I’d say to all but the most experienced user, bench stones are almost useless alone in achieving a clean polish over the entire blade.
But bevel polishing? Oh yes. Jnats are very useful. As well as some other incredible homegrown/found natural stones sourced by forum members.
M1k3
Senior Member
One thing I don't understand about the picture of naturals, how to keep the "teeth" in the valleys of the grit?Forgive me for my bad drawing. As you can see the left side is synthetic stone and right side is natural stone. On synthetic stones the grain will be consistent and even which will produce an edge that are even and consistent like in the bottom of the picture.
on the natural stone you will find grain that small and large or compact into two and that create an edge like in the bottom of the picture on the right side.
So when you using natural stone some part of the blade edge will get dull but you still have some tooth on the edge to cut thru food. You don't lose the toothynes on your knife edge when sharpen a knife with natural stone because of the different grain size contains in natural stone.
But keep in mind that not all natural stone are the same, even if mined in same place or from the same maker, they will give you a different results. It's a bit difficult to get the right one and we need to try every stone which is not cheap. So I stick with synthetic stones for now. I will definitely try some good natural stone from KKF members soon. It's good for Polishing my single bevel
Se1ryu
Senior Member
someone taught me about Japanese natural stones and how hard it is to find a great stone because natural stone won't have the same quality or the same grain even mined in the same area or came from the same maker. from that day I just chose synthetic stones because I use it for commercial use. now I'm trying some natural stone from Indonesia, and looking forward to try Belgian blue stone and soem JNATs.
Maybe @cotedupy can answer this questions about natural stones better than I do since he has plenty of them
Haha... perhaps you put too much faith in me! Especially as I'm not 100% certain I understand Mike's q., but here are some thoughts anyway. As ever - these are just my impressions about stuff, and they're certainly not gospel...
Particle size or variation in a natural stone seems to have relatively little impact on how the resulting edge will be. Factors such as amount of abrasive, the shape of it, and hardness (friability), play a much larger role, and in special instances - porosity of the stone or type of abrasive. If you put all of these factors together I think you can probably make a bit of a generalisation and say:
The level of teeth on an edge broadly correlates with how fast a stone is. If a stone is relatively fast for its 'grit' level you will likely get an edge that is more aggressive, if it's relatively slow then your edge will be more refined.
Obviously there are exceptions, but in general natural stones, particularly jnats, are quite slow, so aren't going to give you a huge amount of toothy character in comparison to synths. But the biggest factors that affect this are not necessarily grain size or distribution. It's because natural stones are almost always silica based, which is considerably softer than AlOx or SiC used in synths, and so rounds out more quickly. They're also usually less friable which means less new abrasive is exposed. And also the very large majority of natural whetstones are the result of lithification, which compresses the abrasive within them. I wrote a slightly rambling post about this kind of thing recently:
https://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/...sions-do-they-really-matter.59743/post-915262
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As I say - I'm not certain I understood the original q. correctly, but perhaps those thoughts above might be interesting.
TLDR: Unless a natural stone is particularly soft, then variations in grit size or distribution aren't going to matter a massive amount. Hardness is a more important influence in their effect.
M1k3
Senior Member
How do you prevent the peaks of the blades edge from colliding with the peaks of the sharpening surface? Just thinking there'll be some kind of equilibrium between the 2 surfaces rubbing against each other?
Or maybe I'm thinking about it all wrong?
I’m thinking the topography changes with each stroke (???). There’s no way you can ensure steel peaks fit into the stone valleys and the other way around too. Not on that kind of scale.How do you prevent the peaks of the blades edge from colliding with the peaks of the sharpening surface? Just thinking there'll be some kind of equilibrium between the 2 surfaces rubbing against each other?
Or maybe I'm thinking about it all wrong?
The model makes sense if we’re restricting the result to one stroke, but if we actually sharpen, that end result changes every time there’s abrasion. The peaks will be more varied than on synthetics, but can’t actually be controlled/manipulated to achieve a desired tooth pattern. My guess is this is where that equilibrium sits.
This is my interpretation of said model, and it’s sort of a reach - take with plenty of salt.
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If I was being very facetious I would say - you don't. Because that's how things get sharp.
More seriously though... I think perhaps the drawings, though correct in one way, are perhaps a slightly confusing way to think about what's going on. If anything, on a very small scale, the surface of a synthetic stone is going to look more jagged than a natural one. Because it has more abrasive in it, and it's sharper.
What @Pie said is perhaps a better way to think about it I think. The reason a natural stone might leave a more polished / less toothy edge than a comparable level synth isn't because of a variation in grit size. It's because the grit itself isn't as abrasive. So when you reach your 'equilibrium' the synthetic stone has done more cutting and abrading in comparison to the natural, leaving deeper, more aggressive scratches and a toothier edge.
This is why I said above that I think: The level of teeth on an edge broadly correlates with how fast a stone is.
Natural stones can leave very toothy edges, but they have to be quick stones - Washitas, Turkish, Cotis &c. A coticule for instance will finish a knife finer than a sandstone. But the coarse sandstone is quite slow in comparison to synths, whereas the coticule is fast. Meaning the sandstone leaves a coarser but relatively polished (or burnished) edge, whereas the coti leaves a finer yet grippier one. Which is why low grit natural stones are generally pretty rubbish.
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I'm still not sure I'm exactly answering your question M (?). And obviously - it's just my impressions of things. They may be wrong, and there will be other valid ways to picture or think about what's happening. You've been sharpening stuff longer than me anyway!
p.s. - I enjoyed your youtube video. Searingly insightful political commentary from your man!
