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Need a good 3000 / 4000 grit stone for erasing 1000 naniwa pro or 2000 bester scratches on wide bevel

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JDC

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Really !
A little off topic but I doubt that a 2.45 micron synth stone could give best mirroring result on core than a 0.49 micron one.
Very surprised by this but very interested because I was planning to buy a 30,000 thinking it could be the ultimate synth for mirroring core steel.
Yeah, I wasn't convinced to buy it until consulted with several kind gentlemen.
In my previous post, the shapton HC 6k was used to initiate the mirror, and Okudo suita was to convert tiny scratches to JNat pattern, so you see no visible scratches (but do have a polished frosted JNat finish at one specific light angle).

My 30000 was from the shapton seven series, 0.44 micron. It gives a total mirror, but the problem is, at the same specific light angle, you'll see crazy scratches (like ~ 1000 grit). That's totally unacceptable. I did much trial and error, and convinced that the scratches are from the 0.44. Glad I didn't waste too much money...

HC 6k still has some scratches, but no where as bad as the 0.44, easily erasable by the suita.

Not sure if the full sized 30000 glass stone performs the same though.
 

kayman67

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Really !
A little off topic but I doubt that a 2.45 micron synth stone could give best mirroring result on core than a 0.49 micron one.
Very surprised by this but very interested because I was planning to buy a 30,000 thinking it could be the ultimate synth for mirroring core steel.
After something like Naniwa Super Stone 10000 or Sigma 13000, you gain more with a polishing compound and cloth, if you need more.
 

kayman67

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Yeah, I wasn't convinced to buy it until consulted with several kind gentlemen.
In my previous post, the shapton HC 6k was used to initiate the mirror, and Okudo suita was to convert tiny scratches to JNat pattern, so you see no visible scratches (but do have a polished frosted JNat finish at one specific light angle).

My 30000 was from the shapton seven series, 0.44 micron. It gives a total mirror, but the problem is, at the same specific light angle, you'll see crazy scratches (like ~ 1000 grit). That's totally unacceptable. I did much trial and error, and convinced that the scratches are from the 0.44. Glad I didn't waste too much money...

HC 6k still has some scratches, but no where as bad as the 0.44, easily erasable by the suita.

Not sure if the full sized 30000 glass stone performs the same though.
It does. But the Pro 30k is better in this regard. Also much more expensive.

If you guys pursue a full synthetic mirror edge, the best possible polish would be with a Suehiro progression, but the stones are very expensive. I think all of them are about 750$(?).
 

JDC

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Glad to know :) Yeah Pro 30k is much more expensive, unless you find a reasonable dealer, it can be close to what glass 30k costs.

I don't need to go any further from my current mirror, but, listen to @kayman67 is a wise choice if you go that route.
 

thebradleycrew

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@milangravier - have you tried naturals in that 3/4k range to remove the 2k scratches? I suspect you could find a good, large stone to accomplish that if you so desired.
 

Knife2meatu

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In this progression Naniwa 220 (thinning), Sigma S2 1000 and 3000 I got no scratches whatsoever, but a very homogeneous matte haze finish. Do you soak, add enough water and use slurry?
10 minute soak, used with slurry and extra water. I'm not seeing what you're seeing, I may have to mess around with it more, later. I'm not interested in doing any proper, prolonged soaking with this stone at the moment, however, so that might influence my results.
 

Alder26

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Thanks for all those info.
It's looking like Sigma 3000 could be a good stone in my case. I will test Rika 5000. JNS 6000 is good stone but it doesn't erase bester 2000 scratches (they might be bigger scratches than the name tell) quickly enough for me.
I would suggest the rika 5k. It dishes faster than the chosera 3k, but it doesn't have the sticky gummy feeling that the cholera can have. Have you considered an Aizu or Aoto? I tend to find that after a 2k an Aizu is the fastest way to set up a good Kasumi
 

Alder26

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Arashiyama 6k is very fast and pleasant to work with aswell if it’s permanently soaked. Definitely capable of removing 2k scratches pretty fast
 

kayman67

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I reinforce the opinion that after a certain grit ( around 8-12k, sometimes could even be lower) , if there are no deep scratches to buff out, a polishing compound and some elbow grease is best choice. And way less frustrating.
10 minute soak, used with slurry and extra water. I'm not seeing what you're seeing, I may have to mess around with it more, later. I'm not interested in doing any proper, prolonged soaking with this stone at the moment, however, so that might influence my results.
I keep them in water as long as I work. With 1000 this makes a huge difference. At least 30 minutes are needed for it to perform best. But 3000 and 10000 also perform much better.
I imagine other things matter to some extent. I have this tendency to adapt more to what stones can do than the other way around, I guess.
 

kayman67

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Also, maybe worth mentioning, my stones are quite old. If any kind of changes were made, might influence the outcome. And sometimes manufacturers do change things without notice.
 

milangravier

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@milangravier - have you tried naturals in that 3/4k range to remove the 2k scratches? I suspect you could find a good, large stone to accomplish that if you so desired.
Hi,
I tried Natsuya and Aizu, they are great stones but I would prefer erasing the 1000/2000 grit scratches before use them because in my experience they are a bit slower (also a bit thinner to me than the grit we attach to them) than synthetic and can miss some scratches that will come to my eyes with finer natural stones.
I am gonna try a Kaisei soon (that is 1000 grit natural stone) and it may solve the thing quite elegantly but I am also looking for a good solution in the set up Naniwa pro 400/Shapton glass 500 --> Naniwa pro 1000/Bester 2000 ---> 3000/4000 grit ----> Natsuya ----> Finer natural stones.
 

milangravier

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Hi,
I tried Natsuya and Aizu, they are great stones but I would prefer erasing the 1000/2000 grit scratches before use them because in my experience they are a bit slower (also a bit thinner to me than the grit we attach to them) than synthetic and can miss some scratches that will come to my eyes with finer natural stones.
I am gonna try a Kaisei soon (that is 1000 grit natural stone) and it may solve the thing quite elegantly but I am also looking for a good solution in the set up Naniwa pro 400/Shapton glass 500 --> Naniwa pro 1000/Bester 2000 ---> 3000/4000 grit ----> Natsuya ----> Finer natural stones.
Also just try 2 Aoto and was not convinced with them.
I am still able to work with what I got but I am looking for some improvments in the erasing 1000 grit part of my progression
 

spaceconvoy

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My aoto has too wide a grit range to be useful this way, maybe yours is similar. It's great for edges, but will leave some deeper scratches than my GS500.
 

Matus

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Friend of mine uses Sigma 6000 and gets a very even finish. Unless I am mistaken he uses it directly after 1k Sigma (or 1k Shapton Pro). But he is also very skilled ...
 

Up_dog128

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I'm a bit surprised that the bester 4k isn't fast enough for you; I can usually remove 2k scratches with that stone in 60-90 seconds. I feel like the bester is faster than my SG 4k (hr) in this regard, but maybe I need to go play around with it to confirm this.
If you decide to go there naturals route, you might consider a white amakusa. They are quite cheap, and in my admittedly limited experience, the scratch pattern from this stone is finer than my aizu or aoto
 

milangravier

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I'm a bit surprised that the bester 4k isn't fast enough for you; I can usually remove 2k scratches with that stone in 60-90 seconds. I feel like the bester is faster than my SG 4k (hr) in this regard, but maybe I need to go play around with it to confirm this.
If you decide to go there naturals route, you might consider a white amakusa. They are quite cheap, and in my admittedly limited experience, the scratch pattern from this stone is finer than my aizu or aoto
There gonna be tests to confirm all my feelings, because sometimes you think something don't work but it's just very different. I need this week to take some time and do a 2000 bester vs all my 3000/4000 grit. I will update the post if I find any stone that's working particulary great. I am gonna try to find some time today
 

JDC

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There gonna be tests to confirm all my feelings, because sometimes you think something don't work but it's just very different. I need this week to take some time and do a 2000 bester vs all my 3000/4000 grit. I will update the post if I find any stone that's working particulary great. I am gonna try to find some time today
In the meantime, keep knives pouring please :p
 

zizirex

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There gonna be tests to confirm all my feelings, because sometimes you think something don't work but it's just very different. I need this week to take some time and do a 2000 bester vs all my 3000/4000 grit. I will update the post if I find any stone that's working particulary great. I am gonna try to find some time today
Have you checked Shapton Pro 2000? does it finish nicer than Bester 2k? Or have you played around with Nagura stone? sometimes some slurry could help polish the knife nicely.
 

milangravier

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Have you checked Shapton Pro 2000? does it finish nicer than Bester 2k? Or have you played around with Nagura stone? sometimes some slurry could help polish the knife nicely.
No, did not try it. I got only Shapton pro 5000 in that brand, nice stone but don't use it so much as I prefer going naturals earlier.

I just did the begginning of a test :
Test knife is 185mm petty, bevel is about 12/13mm wide. san mai Mild steel + C130 as usual.
Disclaimer : it's very difficult to get true and honest information during the test, the two sides of the blades are slightly differents and I am working ambidextrious so maybe left hand is not as strong as right hand.
The blade is grinded on my 36 grit whetsone wheel, then I go on 120 grit sand belt to get even & flat before goind to stones.

First fight : JNS 400 (right side) vs Naniwa Pro 400 (left side) : JNS wins, 11 minutes to erase 120 grit scratches and form the bevel right in thickness and geometry. Naniwa pro 400 for the same job took me 20 minutes.
This is going on contrary than my previous test ! I think right side had to be cleaner than left one before the stones. But my feelings tell me JNS wins anyway : harder stone so to me better feedback, very good abrasion (bevel get light kasumi (full of scratches of course)), not as much mud so I am not always cleaning it and it doesn't slowing me down. I had to flattend naniwa at mid period, I didn't with JNS. Naniwa feel more abrasive and soft, but JNS was working really fast and the figures can't be that wrong, it took me nearly two times less with JNS.

Second fight : Bester 2000 (right side) vs Naniwa pro 1000 (left side) : Bester wins with one minute less (9 minutes vs 10 minutes). To my feelings Naniwa was maybe a bit faster because there were more job to do on the left side. Naniwa is really far more softer than Bester which is hard stone. Scratches do look finer with Naniwa than the Bester ones. So they are almost equality but Naniwa is little bit faster and finer scratches vs Bester is doing clear kasumi (like it because you can see easier even on clad if you erase the previous scratches) and is harder (like it for the feedback and for keeping the stone flat on my bevel easily).

Third fight : Natsuya (right) vs Natsuya (left) : just to see if Natsuya can erase the 1000/2000 scratches and how much times it takes with Natsuya to erase Bester vs Naniwa scratches. Natsuya took me 15 minutes to erase all Naniwa 1000 scratches and get nice clean bevel. I try for about 11 minutes to erase Bester scratches with Natsuya and it was not working : I could erase most of it but there were 30% of scratches that were too deep to clean them with Natsuya. I think it could took me about.... 25 maybe 30 minutes if I wished to erase those deeper scratches. So clearly Naniwa 1000 makes shallower scratches than Bester 2000. Now, my final thought about this fight is that I wish my Natsuya could be slightly coarser so I can be really confident at erasing any 1000 scratches coming from Naniwa or Bester. In both case, to get the guaranty that all 1000 scratches (even Naniwa ones) are erased before going finer in grain, I think I would use a stone in between, fore Natsuya, just to be sure scratches are all erased and can be confident to go Natsuya and then whatever stone I want to use without discovering any 1000 grit scratches.

This afternoon (it is about 1:30PM in France) I will make the fight between the different stones I got to erase 1000 grit scratches. I will do the test with Bester scratches on the blade (because I prefer harder stones vs Naniwa 1000) and anyway if I can erase Bester 2000, it means I can erase Naniwa 1000.
Give you some news soon,
 

milangravier

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Hello again.
Ok here is the next step of my little stones test.
Each time before testing a stone, I grind the bevel with Bester 2000, then use the 3000/4000 grit stone that I want to test, then use Natsuya to confirm all scratches are erased and that the scratches from the stones tested are not too deep for Natsuya.
I have tested 5 stones : Cerax 3000, Bester 4000, JNS 3000, Rika 5000, Naniwa 3000.
Winners are Cerax 3000, Rika 5000 and Naniwa 3000. With those 3 stones I was able to erase easily Bester 2000 scratches within 5 minutes (Winner is even Rika 5000, only 2 minutes to erase Bester 2000!). Naniwa 3000 leaves the best clean finish, but I really don't like that I need to deal with it's stickyness and softness. Cerax 3000 is really fast but leaves the worst finish, like very bright scratches in the middle of the dark clad. The feeling is not so nice because very quickly I can feel some particules that scratch the clad, can't really avoid that they appear. Rika 5000 was fastest and almost good finish, a bit like cerax 3000 with bright scratches but far less. That was the stone I prefer during the test. At the end, it took me about 3 minutes to clean those 3 stones with the Natsuya.
Loosers are Bester 4000 and JNS 3000 : after 5 minutes I could see I would never erase the bester 2000 scratches quickly, there is still a lot and they look too deep to be able to erase them with those stones. Bester 4000 give a nice finish, nice feeling, nearly mirror core, but not powerful enough in front bester 2000 scratches. JNS 3000 is not powerful enough too, finish is more finely scratched, satin, don't really like using the stone and the finish it gives. I did test both those stones with atoma 140 slurry but I did not get any enough power to do the job.

So I am gonna do 2 knives full polishing session with the set : JNS 400, Bester 2000, Rika 5000, Natsuya and Finishing natural stone. And will try to confirm this little test.

Thanks again to all the people for the help you gave me, hope this little test can give you back some info.
 

inferno

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I have done lots of polishing up to mirror polish.
from that hard 2k you have. i guess its the pink one? i have the pink bester 2k. you could try the naniwa pro 2k. it starts out as as a 2k, but very quickly it turns finer and finishes at about 3k.

other alternatives are the glass 3k and 4k. the 3k is a bit faster than the 4k. and the 4k is finer. after the 4k i usually go straight to the 8k shapton pro. its a very fast stone for its grit. then up to any of my 12k's.

you could also try using another 2k that creates shallower scratches. shapton pro/glass, naniwa pro, juuma (soaker, this one is very similar to the pink bester 2k), king hyper 2k (soaker).

another soaker that you might or might not like is the naniwa hibiki 3k. its hard and release no abrasive. similar to juumas and bester 2k.
 

milangravier

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That sounds like a fair test! Will you try shapton pro 5000 also?
I think I tested it before and it was not powerful enough (just too fine I would say) to erase bester 2000 scratches. Just to be cleat, Rika 5000 can do it but to me when I look at the finish the Rika leaves, it is not a 5000 grit, it is 3000 grit at best.
If I got some time I will do the test with shapton pro 5000 to be sure.
 

milangravier

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I have done lots of polishing up to mirror polish.
from that hard 2k you have. i guess its the pink one? i have the pink bester 2k. you could try the naniwa pro 2k. it starts out as as a 2k, but very quickly it turns finer and finishes at about 3k.

other alternatives are the glass 3k and 4k. the 3k is a bit faster than the 4k. and the 4k is finer. after the 4k i usually go straight to the 8k shapton pro. its a very fast stone for its grit. then up to any of my 12k's.

you could also try using another 2k that creates shallower scratches. shapton pro/glass, naniwa pro, juuma (soaker, this one is very similar to the pink bester 2k), king hyper 2k (soaker).

another soaker that you might or might not like is the naniwa hibiki 3k. its hard and release no abrasive. similar to juumas and bester 2k.
Hi! Thanks for this help.
Yes I got 2K light Pink Bester. It got some inconvenient but it is really fast and no dishing stone, just an abrasive tool. Do you advise to to Bester 2000 then Naniwa pro 2000 ?
I will try shapton glass in those range grit because a lot of advises are going this way.
Shapton pro 2000 is hard or soft ? Naniwa pro 2000 must be soft no ?(1000 and 3000 are), Juuma I never try (similar to Bester 2000 but finer scratches ?), I do have King hyper 2000, few month ago I did not like it because it was behaving like cerax 3000 : it is nice and smooth be then you get tiny particules that scratch the clad (the come whatever I do), and then you don't get a nice finish. Bue maybe, similar to cerax 3000, the finish is not that important as I will clean it with the next stone... In the 1000/2000 grit range I think it's good to get a clear light finish so you can see all the coarse work is erased.
 

inferno

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Hi! Thanks for this help.
Yes I got 2K light Pink Bester. It got some inconvenient but it is really fast and no dishing stone, just an abrasive tool. Do you advise to to Bester 2000 then Naniwa pro 2000 ?
I will try shapton glass in those range grit because a lot of advises are going this way.
Shapton pro 2000 is hard or soft ? Naniwa pro 2000 must be soft no ?(1000 and 3000 are), Juuma I never try (similar to Bester 2000 but finer scratches ?), I do have King hyper 2000, few month ago I did not like it because it was behaving like cerax 3000 : it is nice and smooth be then you get tiny particules that scratch the clad (the come whatever I do), and then you don't get a nice finish. Bue maybe, similar to cerax 3000, the finish is not that important as I will clean it with the next stone... In the 1000/2000 grit range I think it's good to get a clear light finish so you can see all the coarse work is erased.
the naniwa pro 2k would probably be good for that job. since it starts out coarse and then turn fine. you might not even need the bester then. the stone is hard but it feels soft. but it really isn't soft at all. the naniwa pro2k makes a very good kasumi without scratches. very good contrast. the 800 is also very good for this.

shapton pro (all of them) feel hard and are hard.

personally when i do a full progression i want to get done as quickly as possible so for me its usually something like this:
shapton pro 220
glass 500
naniwa pro 800 (for contrast) / shapton pro 1k (polished)
naniwa pro 2k (contrast) / shapton 2k pro (polished)
glass 4k
pro 8k
finisher 10-12k.

its also possible to jump from 1k to 3k glass then 6k glass then 12k.

i only need to spend a minute or so from 2k and up on each stone.

-------------------------------------------------------------------

i did a little test here. testing stone speed.
also a test of the juumas.

 

JDC

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Hi! Thanks for this help.
Yes I got 2K light Pink Bester. It got some inconvenient but it is really fast and no dishing stone, just an abrasive tool. Do you advise to to Bester 2000 then Naniwa pro 2000 ?
I will try shapton glass in those range grit because a lot of advises are going this way.
Shapton pro 2000 is hard or soft ? Naniwa pro 2000 must be soft no ?(1000 and 3000 are), Juuma I never try (similar to Bester 2000 but finer scratches ?), I do have King hyper 2000, few month ago I did not like it because it was behaving like cerax 3000 : it is nice and smooth be then you get tiny particules that scratch the clad (the come whatever I do), and then you don't get a nice finish. Bue maybe, similar to cerax 3000, the finish is not that important as I will clean it with the next stone... In the 1000/2000 grit range I think it's good to get a clear light finish so you can see all the coarse work is erased.
The shapton pro 2000 is not a soft stone to my judgement, however, it is a very creamy and smooth stone. It erases shapton pro 1000 (which is a coarser stone than your naniwa pro 1000) scratches easily. This stone is considered to be equivalent to the AI 2000 which Shinichi Watanabe uses in his progression.
 

milangravier

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Thanks for adding those advises. It looks like the Bester 2000 I like is good to eat metal but not that good in a progression because scratches can be deep. I may try shapton pro 2K or Naniwa pro 2K.

I have done two full progression with the set JNS 400 -> Bester 2000 -> Rika 5000 / Cerax 3000 -> Natsuya -> Finer stones since my test
JNS 400 is great stone, work similar to Shapton glass 500, tad coarser. Bester works great to erase the previous scratches, but maybe make deep scratches... Then I tried Rika and it was not that good... Too much scratches/grits appearing while polishing. I use mainly Cerax 3000 and it was ok but it's not really my style of stones.

I just received Gesshin 220 / 400 / 2000 / 4000 and I am doing some test with them. I mostly try 2000 and 4000. 2000 is similar to my bester but it feels finer. 4000 is same type, hard stone, very fast. I can fast enough erase 2K scratches, but main problem with those stones is that scratches can be deep (maybe because they are so abrasive), so I am not sure Natsuya can erase easily those 4K scratches from Gesshin. But it was very quick test, I need to work on it a bit more.
 

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I have gesshin 4000 which is my main edge stone. I tried it in my wide bevel progression, but probably won't do that again...
 

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yeah... its a bit too firm for my taste for that as well... but I've certainly done it a few times
 

spaceconvoy

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I like the Morihei 4000 on wide bevels, for a synthetic stone. Though if I was serious about wide bevel polishing I'd get deeper into natural
 
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