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Matthew Knox

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Joined
Jun 26, 2018
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Location
Boston
LOCATION

What country are you in?


USA



KNIFE TYPE

What type of knife are you interested in (e.g., chef’s knife, slicer, boning knife, utility knife, bread knife, paring knife, cleaver)?


Gyuto & Santoku/Nakiri



Are you right or left handed?


Right(spouse is lefty)


Are you interested in a Western handle (e.g., classic Wusthof handle) or Japanese handle?


Japanese


What length of knife (blade) are you interested in (in inches or millimeters)?


gyuto-210-240mm Santoku/Nakiri-165-185mm


Do you require a stainless knife? (Yes or no)


No


What is your absolute maximum budget for your knife?


Chef-$300 & Santoku/Nakiri-$300


Or $600 in total with both of them(but happy to spend less just don’t want to sacrifice quality or aesthetics)


KNIFE USE

Do you primarily intend to use this knife at home or a professional environment?


Home


What are the main tasks you primarily intend to use the knife for (e.g., slicing vegetables, chopping vegetables, mincing vegetables, slicing meats, cutting down poultry, breaking poultry bones, filleting fish, trimming meats, etc.)? (Please identify as many tasks as you would like.)


Prep work. Slicing & chopping vegetables and meat(nothing too solid like acorn squash or anything that has bones-I have a German beater knife for that grunt work)


What knife, if any, are you replacing?


Not replacing


Do you have a particular grip that you primarily use? (Please click on this LINK for the common types of grips.)


Pinch typically-but I’ve been working with sub par sharpness


What cutting motions do you primarily use? (Please click on this LINK for types of cutting motions and identify the two or three most common cutting motions, in order of most used to least used.)


Chop(I do love a good rocking chop), slicing(trying to do more slicing than chop going forward), pull/push


What improvements do you want from your current knife? If you are not replacing a knife, please identify as many characteristics identified below in parentheses that you would like this knife to have.)


•good edge retention

•minimal stickage

•not a “chippy” knife-I know it depends on my style/expertise of my cutting skills, but some knifes are prone/known for chipping(shun)

•double beveled preferred-spouse is a lefty


Better aesthetics (e.g., a certain type of finish; layered/Damascus or other pattern of steel; different handle color/pattern/shape/wood; better scratch resistance; better stain resistance)?


(•love darker blades/finishes...reactive carbon{blue super, Aogami, shirogami,etc}, hurouchi finish, nashiji finish, Damascus clad or tsuchime-or a combination or any other darker toned/finish knife that’s stainless, semi, or carbon-just not ceramic)

(•lighter blades with good balance)

(•wooden handles-preferably not 3 rivets)

(•possibly each knife having a different grind to tackle different different tasks)



Comfort (e.g., lighter/heavier knife; better handle material; better handle shape; rounded spine/choil of the knife; improved balance)?


Ease of Use (e.g., ability to use the knife right out of the box; smoother rock chopping, push cutting, or slicing motion; less wedging; better food release; less reactivity with food; easier to sharpen)?


•little to no wedging-gotta Wüsthof classic for that

•would love to have it at working level right out of the box but can do some work if need be

•great food release

•I’m going to have them professionally sharpened in the beginning(taking lessons now to make sure I don’t mess up my new Japanese knives)


Edge Retention (i.e., length of time you want the edge to last without sharpening)?


Good edge retention but am willing to do the upkeep if that means a better overall knife


KNIFE MAINTENANCE

Do you use a bamboo, wood, rubber, or synthetic cutting board? (Yes or no.)


Wood cutting board but will buy whatever I need to


Do you sharpen your own knives? (Yes or no.)


Am in the midst of being able to


If not, are you interested in learning how to sharpen your knives? (Yes or no.)


See above



Are you interested in purchasing sharpening products for your knives? (Yes or no.)




SPECIAL REQUESTS/COMMENTS

Just to help(maybe), I figured I’d list some of the knives I’ve kind of looked at...


•Wakui Guyuto white 2 stainless

•Tanaka blue 2 Damascus

•Shinko seilan ku aogami super

•Sukenari ginsanko

•Tanaka ginsan nashiji

•Tanaka blue 2 kurouchi

•Curosaki knives

•Syousin chiku KU

•Sentan kaigann blue 2

•Shinko kurokumo R2 Damascus

•Miyabi-Black & Birchwood lines

•Kikuichi-Warikomi&warikomi swedish(Tsushime)

•Mcusta Zanmai-33 layer Damascus, kuronami

•karaku Aogami

•shibata kotetsu sg2

•Takeda Aogami super

•Takeda Aogami stainless

•Sakai Takayuki doi blue steel homies

•tojiro hand-forged Aogami
 
I think you should start with one gyuto, find out what you like and don't like about it, then buy a second gyuto to compliment it.

Your priorities are a litte at odds and you will have to decide what's most important to you. In particular, you mentioned that you want a thin knife with nice balance but you also want great food release. Thinness and food release are a tradeoff. So do you want a thin knife with limited food release or a workhorse grind with good food release but may wedge (but probably not as much as your current knife) in hard foods? Or a middleweight which is something in between on both counts?

Also be aware that although gyutos are generally double bevelled, they are almost all ground assymetrically, favouring a right hander. In general, the thicker the knife, the more the grind will be right biased. You may be better off considering a specific leftie ground knife for your spouse, although a super thin knife (laser) may not have much assymetry in the grind.
 
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If you prioritise the kourouchi, rough look and food release in the 300$ range, they don't make em more badass than the Kochi at JKI. If that's too bad ass, take a look at the gengetsu. Would be a good middle ground within your budget.
 
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If you're going for two knives, don't buy a santoku. Its neither a chef's nor nakiri and doesn't do either job as well. Get a chef's AND a nakiri separately. And if you're buying a single knife, go for a chef's.
 
I think you should start with one gyuto, find out what you like and don't like about it, then buy a second gyuto to compliment it.

Your priorities are a litte at odds and you will have to decide what's most important to you. In particular, you mentioned that you want a thin knife with nice balance but you also want great food release. Thinness and food release are a tradeoff. So do you want a thin knife with limited food release or a workhorse grind with good food release but may wedge (but probably not as much as your current knife) in hard foods? Or a middleweight which is something in between on both counts?

Also be aware that although gyutos are generally double bevelled, they are almost all ground assymetrically, favouring a right hander. In general, the thicker the knife, the more the grind will be right biased. You may be better off considering a specific leftie ground knife for your spouse, although a super thin knife (laser) may not have much assymetry in the grind.

^^ These are very good points.
Yeah, you might consider a shorter laser gyuto, like a 180-210mm Takamura since it'll have much less asymmetry than a thicker knife. A stainless Ginga would be another option. A small laser will not check the food release box. You mentioned you didn't want a potentially chippy knife. Neither the Takamura nor the Ginga are chippy.
In addition, consider a 240mm workhorse, which will check the food release box. You'd be hard-pressed to find a better one than a Watanabe 240mm. Good flat spot and so will accomplish all the Nakiri tasks, with the benefit of having a point! Other good ones--and much cheaper, which would leave some $$ from your budget for a stone or two--are (in descending order of price) Hinoura or Tanaka, which are more towards plump mid-weight. Maybe look at a Shinko Seilan AS--I haven't tried one though and so can't comment. They look like a bargain though.
 
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good santokus are very rare, but with $300 you can get a KU shig,
or a KA blue-steel masamoto (also KU finish).

For the gyuto, a 240 is really a good investment.

plenty of budget to work with, but keep in mind
stones and learning to care for your knives
should almost predate buying them, if these
are you first "good ones".

[also keep in mind your OP was asking for some
contradictory things...listen to those guys upthread
about food release, etc]
 
good santokus are very rare, but with $300 you can get a KU shig,
or a KA blue-steel masamoto (also KU finish).

For the gyuto, a 240 is really a good investment.

plenty of budget to work with, but keep in mind
stones and learning to care for your knives
should almost predate buying them, if these
are you first "good ones".

[also keep in mind your OP was asking for some
contradictory things...listen to those guys upthread
about food release, etc]

Lol. That kurouchi shigefusa santoku is way too reactive for a beginner. It's the last knife a beginner needs.

Out of your options, i like the wakui, the tanaka ginsan, and stainless clad blue 2 nashiji. Those are all good options. The shiro kamo is Solid too. I feel very partial to the rest and wont recommend them.

Avoid takeda knives. Not Beginner friendly.
Kochi and gengetsu are also good options. If you are buying kochi Make sure you get stainless clad one. Iron clad is a pain for beginners to get the hang of the reactivity imo. Sukenari ginsan (standard) or ginsan Damascus (harder) is an ok choice as well.

The tanaka blue damascus and. Kurouchi are especially reactive. Get the stainless clad nashiji version.

You have listed many knives and have listed many characteristics for what you want. Try to narrow it down and read what the posters above said about some of your needs being contradictory. If you are unsure of what you want, get the options i recommend. They are quite safe.

If you want something thin, cuts through food like a "laser" , you can try takamura r2, or shibata kotetsu( this is very prone to chipping. Be careful)
ginga aebl for something thats stainless too. You can find these as ikkanshi tadatsuna, sakai yusuke and many other brand names. But they are all the same.

Imo, just get a 210/240 gyuto based on your board size/workspace,
Then if you want to have a smaller knife, get a bunka or santoku or nakiri. (a reminder that these are not the same).
For this i like masutani vg10. Solid knife for the money.

Alternatively a petty if you find yourself needing one. Choose a size based on your needs. Consider height if you need it.

Edit:
Ive looked through your post again, and i find the wakui stainless clad white 2 gyuto nods to many of your preferences but not all. A very all rounder kind of well balanced knife.
You can pair this with a kintaro ginsan /white steel bunka. Both are stainless clad and the ginsan is full stainless. The ht is pretty good and they are all rounders too. With wa handles. Also they fit your price point.
 
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If you're going for two knives, don't buy a santoku. Its neither a chef's nor nakiri and doesn't do either job as well. Get a chef's AND a nakiri separately. And if you're buying a single knife, go for a chef's.
I'd just like to say that a santoku and nakiri arent very far off from each other. They have very similar sizes. Just different profiles for different preferences. You might not necessarily need them.
I like santokus and bunkas. Useful fun knives when i want something smaller to do some fast work. And good ones are really Nice to use in a home environment.
 
Lol. That kurouchi shigefusa santoku is way too reactive for a beginner. It's the last knife a beginner needs.

I don't disagree with this ;)
but if you're not gonna get a "good" santoku, I would skip them...

Easier choice is 180 petty/suji/gyuto shape, typically in Inox/stainless
to use an everyday knife.

Also pairs well with 240 size main chef/gyuto.
 
Lol. That kurouchi shigefusa santoku is way too reactive for a beginner. It's the last knife a beginner needs.

Out of your options, i like the wakui, the tanaka ginsan, and stainless clad blue 2 nashiji. Those are all good options. The shiro kamo is Solid too. I feel very partial to the rest and wont recommend them.

Avoid takeda knives. Not Beginner friendly.
Kochi and gengetsu are also good options. If you are buying kochi Make sure you get stainless clad one. Iron clad is a pain for beginners to get the hang of the reactivity imo. Sukenari ginsan (standard) or ginsan Damascus (harder) is an ok choice as well.

The tanaka blue damascus and. Kurouchi are especially reactive. Get the stainless clad nashiji version.

You have listed many knives and have listed many characteristics for what you want. Try to narrow it down and read what the posters above said about some of your needs being contradictory. If you are unsure of what you want, get the options i recommend. They are quite safe.

If you want something thin, cuts through food like a "laser" , you can try takamura r2, or shibata kotetsu( this is very prone to chipping. Be careful)
ginga aebl for something thats stainless too. You can find these as ikkanshi tadatsuna, sakai yusuke and many other brand names. But they are all the same.

Imo, just get a 210/240 gyuto based on your board size/workspace,
Then if you want to have a smaller knife, get a bunka or santoku or nakiri. (a reminder that these are not the same).
For this i like masutani vg10. Solid knife for the money.

Alternatively a petty if you find yourself needing one. Choose a size based on your needs. Consider height if you need it.

Edit:
Ive looked through your post again, and i find the wakui stainless clad white 2 gyuto nods to many of your preferences but not all. A very all rounder kind of well balanced knife.
You can pair this with a kintaro ginsan /white steel bunka. Both are stainless clad and the ginsan is full stainless. The ht is pretty good and they are all rounders too. With wa handles. Also they fit your price point.


Tanaka blue 2 damascus is not particularly reactive...unless you happen to buy an old one (at least 4-5 years old)...they changed cladding and people need to recognize this when referencing this knife.
 
Avoid takeda knives. Not Beginner friendly.

I wouldn't rule out Takeda, although there have been complaints regarding thickness behind the edge and bad grinding in the past.

If you like tall gyutos, Takeda could offer some very good release and retention at your price level. The only recomendation is to acquire it from a reputable source and ask them for a very thin behind the edge Takeda. I've done that with Tosho Knife Arts and had great results (talk to Olivia and she'll set you up).

Another point is, since you are a home user, why do you need edge retention so much? You could get some very nice gyutos at your price point with less retention, but very easy to sharpen (such as Tesshu white steel gyutos).
 
The issue with edge retention here is good comment,
I think in part you need some edge retention if you plan on sending out the knife,
simply because I don't think its feasbile/realistic to be sending out
white 2 knives every time they need a touch up.

The counter-argument here is that white 2
is on the easier side for home cook to sharpen,
so you are avoiding a bunch of knifes that ultimately
may make (more) sense, depending on context.
 
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Yep, the requests are a bit conflicted - thin, but great balance and good food release. Fortunately there are some options that make some pretty darn good compromises.

If you'll bump up the budget a bit then the Gengetsu semi SS from JKI is in your grasp. It should fit here like head on a nail or a nail in the head ...or how was it? :D I haven't used one, but it's been talked to death here (and it for a very good reason) so there's really no mystery to it's greatness. Thin behind the edge so it has laser like cutting tendencies, but with some spine to help with food release. Profile is super versatile too. And the semi SS will have good edge retention and still be easy enough to get sharp. I would own one, but they're a pain to source to EU.

For a little less check out the Yoshikane SKD tsuchime from EE. Not as thin behind the edge, but still a great cutter, really good edge retention, lovely profile and exceptional distal taper. One of my personal favourites.

A great budget option is the Tanaka ginsan nashiji gyuto from K&S. Laser like cutter with some spine too and really good edge retention.

IMO a nakiri is a much more fun pairing with a gyuto then a santoku. And there's no reason to look any further then the Watanabe 180 KU pro nakiri. One of the forums all time favourites and for a really attractive price point. Though the original handle could be better.

We'd love to hear what you end up getting so do share when the time comes?
 
Calling the OP... are you still here?

A bit of feedback about what you want will help narrow things down before we give more extensive details about the differences between the knives which have suggested. There are many good options but without your feedback about what you want, we are just listing good knives (and you already had a reasonable list in your OP).
 
I wouldn't rule out Takeda, although there have been complaints regarding thickness behind the edge and bad grinding in the past.

If you like tall gyutos, Takeda could offer some very good release and retention at your price level. The only recomendation is to acquire it from a reputable source and ask them for a very thin behind the edge Takeda. I've done that with Tosho Knife Arts and had great results (talk to Olivia and she'll set you up).

Another point is, since you are a home user, why do you need edge retention so much? You could get some very nice gyutos at your price point with less retention, but very easy to sharpen (such as Tesshu white steel gyutos).

Im not asking to avoid takeda due to previous issues, but because of maintenance and sharpening. Its not a knife i would recommend beginners to sharpen unless they are exclusively having a professional do it. That grind isnt the most easy to maintain.
 
Tanaka blue 2 damascus is not particularly reactive...unless you happen to buy an old one (at least 4-5 years old)...they changed cladding and people need to recognize this when referencing this knife.

That's good, but can't beat the fuss free of stainless clad. Hahaha
I'd still go for stainless clad. Less to worry about.
 
Calling the OP... are you still here?

A bit of feedback about what you want will help narrow things down before we give more extensive details about the differences between the knives which have suggested. There are many good options but without your feedback about what you want, we are just listing good knives (and you already had a reasonable list in your OP).

I apologize for not responding earlier. I am in a very acellerated doctoral program and early Wed morning my kitchen ceiling fell through and flooded my whole apartment from the apartment above ours being renovated by an unlicensed contractor. I will respond later this evening. I haven’t even had a chance to look up everyone’s options they have given.

I truly appreciate everyone’s feedback. Quickly glancing through, I think I can say I’d be willing to compromise on being laser thin and on food release. I don’t mind lowering my standards on edge retention a bit either, since I am willing to put in the time to sharpen myself(I am very eager to start My lessons on sharpening in a couple weeks).

I really boiled it down to a gyuto(210 or longer) and bunka/nakiri(don’t think I’m seasoned enough for usuba or kiritsuke from everything I’ve read. I have taken professional courses on cutting techniques and cooked typically 5-6 a week, but I’m not doing any truly delicate or intricate knife work). I’d prefer kurouchi/koishi, nashiji-in combination with tsuchime(not just hammered, unless the steel is of a dark color) than just Damascus alone(Yu Kurosaki knives’ finishes are stunning). I don’t know why; I just really love the look of a darker blade or a rustic aethstetic. I want a lighter knife still. I’ve come to realize that is what I wanted moreso vs a laser. I want it to feel like an extension of my arm without the knife weighting me down(love the weight and feel of the NWD nickel warikomi damascus line from kikuichi). Would love a custom handle but I know my heads more than likely in the clouds on that one. Really don’t want a chippy or a knife with a reputation of being so. I’d love a knife that will last a long time-maybe have till I’m 90.I can reply a bit more later. If you have any more input from just this please let me know. I am trying to really take your knowledge and apply it in my finding the right pair of knives.
 
I apologize for not responding earlier. I am in a very acellerated doctoral program andearly Wed morning my kitchen ceiling fell through and flooded my whole apartment from the apartment above ours beingrenovated by an unlicensed contractor. I will respond later this evening. I haven’t evenhad a chance to look up everyone’s options they have given.

I truly appreciate everyone’s feedback. Quickly glancing through, I think I can say I’d be willing to compromise on being laser thin and on food release. I don’t mind lowering my standards on edge retention a bit either, since I am willing to put in the time to sharpen myself(I am very eager to start Mylessons on sharpening in a couple weeks).

I really boiled it down to a gyuto(210 or longer) and bunka/nakiri(don’t think I’mseasoned enough for usuba or kiritsuke from everything I’ve read. I have taken professional courses on cutting techniquesand cooked typically 5-6 a week, but I’m not doing any truly delicate or intricate knife work). I’d prefer kurouchi/koishi, nashiji-incombination with tsuchime(not just hammered, unless the steel is of a dark color) than just Damascus alone(YuKurosaki knives’ finishes are stunning). Idon’t know why; I just really love the look of a darker blade or a rustic aethstetic. I want alighter knife still. I’ve come to realize that iswhat I wanted moreso vs a laser. I want it to feel like an extension of my arm without the knife weighting me down(love the weightand feel of the NWD nickel warikomi damascus line from kikuichi). Would love a custom handle but I know my heads more than likely in the clouds on that one. Really don’t want a chippy or a knife with areputation of being so. I’d love a knife that will last a long time-maybe have till I’m 90.I can reply a bit more later. If you have any more input from just this please let me know. I am trying to really take your knowledge and apply it in my finding the right pair of knives.
 
Sorry, I’m new and still have to wait for a moderator to approve my posts
 
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First off, you cant have laser thin and food release at the same time. Thats two completely different things. Some lasers have a better convex where they can have good food release, but will never best a full convex or wide bevel, or heck, even a scandi grind.

Second, edge retention would be based on heat treat of the steel, and partly the steel type. Then it would be a question of the type of sharpening done. Most of the knives recommended have decent edge retention here. Even wakui white steel (which is what you probably should get) has good edge retention for home environnement.

Third. Koishi is a knife line, not the cosmetic hammer finish. Thats a tsuchime hammer pattern. Then I'd tell you that sure, although kurouchi finishes look good, most of them usually wear off after a while with use, washing, sharpening, and scratches. It won't look as good then. Unless its the harder kind. Like nashiji finish. Which wakui, kintaro, kochi, and tanaka have options for. And which are what I and some here have recommended.
Again, i wouldnt get so caught up with looks. After all im using the knife, not looking at it. Custom handles depending on material can set you back 100 usd or more. Id reconsider if i were you because for me, Custom handles are mostly (not always) for looks.

If your technique is poor with any knife with hard steel, there's no avoiding chipping. A laser only amplifies that effect.

Just get any of the knives that i and the other members here have recommended. Problem solved. The core will darken if its a carbon from patina if you like that. You can get reactive iron clad knives too, but again i dont recommend for beginners.
 
A lot of good advice - so I will keep it short. Get a mid-weight 240 gyuto (Kochi kurouchi would be a great choice). Use it for a while. A f you like it - bingo - if your preferences are different, sell it and get a different one. Once you have a gyuto you like, you will also have more experience and then go and start to look for a nakiru (or whatever knife you will be then interested in)
 
@Matthew Knox I'm sorry to hear about your ceiling and apartment. I hope you get it cleaned up ok.

All the knives suggested are good. Just pick one and try it out. You can always sell it later.

You have to start somewhere.

As to custom handles, you can add one at a later date. I wouldn't worry too much about that to start.
 
Im not asking to avoid takeda due to previous issues, but because of maintenance and sharpening. Its not a knife i would recommend beginners to sharpen unless they are exclusively having a professional do it. That grind isnt the most easy to maintain.

If not for previous issues (ie, thickness behind the edge, which would ask for thinning or grinding/HT issues, which are worse), i see no problem for a beginner to sharpen Takeda blades. I actually bought one when i was learning to sharpen and had no problems doing it. Easy to get a burr, easy to deburr. Have you had any problems with it?
 
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1FE3D096-D8F4-4C5F-8261-5EE69BD8B3A0.jpeg 6B243396-1694-43D2-AB5D-030BAF692DF9.jpeg 831D3570-78BB-4C23-A205-F635C3C9C04A.jpeg E7D716D8-01D0-4DAE-AB4B-C14CA302BF42.jpeg 398BD14B-69BC-4A7C-8267-F7500030D422.jpeg BF844271-E934-4DA5-AC90-1895ED66A063.jpeg 3BE2A11B-4A4D-4C5F-B77B-97BDABB40204.jpeg I don’t have much time to write. Apologies for all of the typos, I typically am writing and looking in between classes. I have read and really tried to listen and take your knowledgeable opinions to heart. It sounds ridiculous, but I’ve narrowed it down from my outrageous original number of gyutos to 30 and down to an even better 23 Nakiri/Bunka(I had a very long flight and plenty of time on my hands—and trust me 30 and 23 are REALLY narrowed down)Haha. If there is anyone on here that just has a ton of time on their hands or truly loves helping others. Could you help me narrow each category to 3-5, recommendations on maybe a stone or two, and which websites have good sales/discounts/etc.

Bear in mind, I know many will tell me I’m foolish or it’s my novice mind at work, but I LOVE a beautiful knife. I want it to be a great knife in function but stunning in design. That’s why there are custom handles in my potential selections and all the different finishes. But all of these are great in my eyes. I now just need to know; which knives will last to be an heirloom(I will be obnoxious with care to my knifes and you can give me any tips or tricks to doing so. I don’t mind putting in a lot of time and effort if it means keeping the knife in perfect condition), knives that have a great reputation or a growing one(for newer Bladesmiths{I.e. Yu Kurosaki}), not known for being overly chippy, if I were comparing to cars- I don’t necessarily have to have an Aston Martin(won’t turn one down either) but I do want a classic luxury like Mercedes or BMW rather than a Toyota Camry. Absolutely nothing wrong with a Camry, it performs the tasks just as a Mercedes would. However, on a personal note, style and beauty are important to me, being an avid art collector.

Again, thank you everyone for your time and consideration in my journey into the world of Japanese knives.
 
I would start with a 240 Gyuto over a 210. It is the most popular size for a reason.

♂️ Sorry! I forgot to mention I am choosing a 240mm in all of the gyutos. The picture is for reference to the brand/style/line/etc.
 
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