Great work! Keep at it!
Post your progress good or bad. All welcome!
Need pointers on getting from copy paper sharp to paper towel sharp
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Post your progress good or bad. All welcome!
Also - follow up question on how did you find the JKI 1K diamond? Your thoughts?
So I dusted off my old Shun vg10 and sharpened it up at 32 inclusive (pretty high but just b/c I think Shun recommends something like that). Reasonably paper towel sharp (doesn’t quite fall through effortlessly like some others are capable of) but no HHT; well I get some violining so maybe HHT1? I suspect my angle is too steep for HHT so if I get really bored one day maybe I’ll try again at a lower angle.
Not too much trouble with burrs but I’m not looking under a microscope or anything special. Basically SG500 raise burr, flip and repeat, flip and abrade, flip and abrade. Handful of strokes on SG4000 (not purposefully seeking a burr), flip and repeat, flip and repeat, flip and repeat, finish with a few light alternating edge leading at the same angle.
Anyway, this whole experience just reminded me of why I prefer my carbon core knives.
Not too much trouble with burrs but I’m not looking under a microscope or anything special. Basically SG500 raise burr, flip and repeat, flip and abrade, flip and abrade. Handful of strokes on SG4000 (not purposefully seeking a burr), flip and repeat, flip and repeat, flip and repeat, finish with a few light alternating edge leading at the same angle.
Anyway, this whole experience just reminded me of why I prefer my carbon core knives.
Nice work!
Yeah, I’m not loving deburring this VG10 petty. The CPM154 though was much easier, which was odd because I was expecting that to be more difficult given the higher V and W content in the alloy, clearly, I got that wrong….
Yet another really dumb question for anyone - how can heat treating affect burr removal?
The grit felt like about 3000. This was a fine rod that I flattened on an NL-8, so it’s not “factory spec” now. Apparently the only difference between fine and ultra fine is surface conditioning!?
https://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/threads/vg10-edge-question.31950/post-476479
Indeed the steel is very soft. I suspect some of the reason my BESS was so high was that the edge was deforming against the wire lol. The next time I use the knife against a ceramic plate I’ll post more photos so we can all see that bright line mushrooming on the edge.
I usually freehand to BESS ~80 on non-SS, but on this tiny blade I was wobbling too much. The guided system made sense for setting a microbevel, and the Sharpmaker’s edge-leading, no-swarf design doesn’t raise perceptible burr at low pressures.
Btw the kind of white line that I’m talking about is the one on the edge apex itself, basically a road on the ridgetop reflecting light, indicating a fat or otherwise imperfect apex. Example (I think this was a “before”):
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Ahh right. So a white line at 0 degrees looking down on top of the apex?
I’d never thought about a flat apex / micro bevel reflecting light edge on (mainly because I don’t have big kahunas to be able to get a good view of edge on with my manual focus microscope).
Not to be confused with the white line I was discussing was at 90 degrees perpendicular to the apex, which looks (with the benefit of hindsight and a lot of assistance from this thread) like a small burr.
I’d never thought about a flat apex / micro bevel reflecting light edge on (mainly because I don’t have big kahunas to be able to get a good view of edge on with my manual focus microscope).
Not to be confused with the white line I was discussing was at 90 degrees perpendicular to the apex, which looks (with the benefit of hindsight and a lot of assistance from this thread) like a small burr.
Lol no way, not for $50. That’s why sometimes there are awkward pauses in the video, I’m trying to get purchase on the focus barrel at the same time I grip the scope body and keep my fingers off the edge.
At the relevant object distance, the gizmo has two zoom levels at which focus is sharp.
Zoomed out:
Zoomed in, landscape:
Zoomed in, portrait:
These are mm lines off my callipers. It suggests that if we are interested in sub-micron apexes, we should seek to eliminate gleam off the edge. (For boffins: diffraction)
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For me, it's actually kind of easy. Look down at the apex with a light source above your head, no magnification needed. If you don't see any shiny reflection, you're good.
I’ll give that a shot.
You are one brave man!
It’s pretty great. It does glaze though, so I’ve been scrubbing it with the included nagura after each session like an OCD sufferer rubbing her hands raw. And that leads to worry about using up the stone. It’s only ~1mm after all. Curiously, even though I promised I would save it for the vanadium carbides, I have found myself reaching for it more frequently than my SG1k, probably because I am seduced by the (presumptive) cutting speed.
Yeah. I know exactly what you mean. I’ve got a JKI 300A which I’ve found not as fast cutting as I expected, compared to a SG220, on both VG10 and CPM154, but I agree I reach for my JKI 1K way more than my SG1K now, but yes, that may be all in my head.
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True. In cases I use a loupe it always confirms what my thumb tells me when comparing the feeling on both bevels, gliding from face over the edge. Another option is feeling the bevels with your nail along the edge.
I am still confused by the terminology in this thread. What exactly is meant by "thinning to x degrees" or "thinned at y dps? Is the whole blade being thinned, adjusting the edge bevel to a smaller angle, or something else?
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I guess here is meant setting a relief or secondary bevel.
Sharpening at any lower angle than the one used for the very edge is a form of thinning: you remove steel behind the edge without changing the edge itself. Remember the practice of setting a back- or relief bevel. Given an edge sharpened at 15° per side, you may increase performance by setting a bevel of 10° behind it. If the blade is thin, the relief bevel will be narrow. With a fat blade it will be quite large.
Yes, exactly. Today the Deejo went through some packing tape and a couple of prawn shells. The result:
Twenty strokes on the Sharpmaker later:
Yes, sorry for the lack of specificity. My thinning was all about making it really thin behind the edge.
I remember the dance of sharpening VG-10. It implied, for my satisfaction, a LOT of deburring. And I don't even think I'm so good, or at least not back when I had this steel/did those jobs, but no matter the level of skill reached VG-10 (especially cheap) does a good job of exposing any kind of sharpening "failure".
S. Tanaka does a very nice VG-10 though, comparatively. I've been impressed with that of Ryusen as well, but not as much experience with it - customer knife. But when it's nice like that, it's not a steel I disrespect at all. Does a very good job of holding a great working edge for a good while, and a bit more naturally straightforward sharpening them.
I've not read the full 10 pages to this thread, but here are a few things that MIGHT not have been mentionned/proposed yet overall. And I don't think it will help you specifically with VG-10, but you never know.
- Cutting printer paper: I only accept getting the paper through the blade. I've seen all kind of slices proposed, and of them going straight down is the best. But an even more testing method is to grab into the paper with the blade going straight down, then hold that move to rather pull the paper up and through the cutting edge. Of course, you can straight pull up the paper through the blade as well, but is more difficult to get done right with any big enough sheet or slice of it, since any too far off the fingers holding the paper point will fail (not your fault, but the sheet of paper might "twist-curve over" the entry point and won't be strong enough not to tear where your pulling it up clashes with the paper itself twisting sideways from the cut).
So the best method to me overall is: naturally slicing the paper first, motionning all along the edge. 1-2 should suffice to highlight a particularly bad failure. When that is achieved, I'll cut "straight down" with the aforementionned method of pulling the paper up once driving the blade straightdown has seemlessly began the cut. Needs to be tested at a few important points: very near the heel, a bit further, middle of flat spot, middle of the blade, then essentially dividing the forward to tip edge in as much other segments. Then I take the slips of paper produced and straight pull them up through the blade - less hazardous and the paper won't twist-curve nearly as much in strips to a safer distance to the fingers holding it. I cut a few of them slips at as much segments of the edge as I feel like to be sure. I mean, if it's known carbon steel unit, and there were no other issues getting to this point, I just do 3-4 of them at the most important points. If it's unkwown SS and it's been reluctant all along, I might do 20-25 points. You eventually get good at it - it takes little time and you can basically skip-test and pull up through any sheet of paper without fear of pulling up the paper fingers through as well while still near enough them to cut through the straight hanging part... I can tell you, you're soon down to the basic thing that your very heels and very tips areas are not as good as the rest of the edges you get.
- Phantom burrs - while essentially most J-knives are impervious to it, any SS that's barely circling the 60RC mark AT BEST and very possibly going lower, especially since they're often grinded with a belt and perhaps the steel just behind the original apex has been deteriorated some, and depending on its composition, has a good chance of seeing a rather fine apex curl over itself overnight. It might cut through paper towels very well right after sharpening, then tomorrow behave rather ****** in an otherwise easy prep, confusing the audience...
Be patient if the steel has proven to be weak itself. Of course it helps having tried at least a dozen iterations of anything out there, but still beware especially of cheap circa-60RC or probably below SS ones, and of how much a careless belt grind can ruin them. Or of any SS customer knives, especially going down from cheap to hardware store prices.
- If you think it's deburred/without debris, dragging a paper towel or Kleenex down the primary tracing the edge might say otherwise. Especially when lightly damp - they'll stick better to anything and get weaker as well - so the tearing and where and how far up will be unmistakable against an otherwise clean swipe.
Useless really unless you're getting confused by a specific steel/blade properties, which I guess cheap VG-10 has a fair chance to do you. Behaved steels will respond very well - or not - simply with the printer paper tests to have you go to cutting stuff - and IF anything happens there, you'll learn from it well, either regarding a specific blade, or your methodology into any so far.
- Listen... of course, bad edges are FELT rather instantly. But good edges out of similar steels - just listen and learn to know you expect that much refinement in sound from a particular steel/category of steel at least from a lower grit stone. That goes for anything "paper". Hair tests, well yeah the sound of it (or just a ragged parch of skin burning/hair pulled raw after straight shaving) can get you past the most basic level, but the tests are what the tests are to them anywhere further.
- Don't get stuck with any artificial cutting test. Go onto those carrots, those peppers, those onions, those tomatoes. Make an ordinance of them any produces to how closely enough they can tell you anything you need to know of a really good edge. That's most useful than anything else once you get to the stage where you can consistently sharpen anything to utmost satisfying levels of cutting them stuff and holding them edges well.
Cut real stuff too and foremost! When failing it will STILL keep you more specifically informed than artificial tests.
S. Tanaka does a very nice VG-10 though, comparatively. I've been impressed with that of Ryusen as well, but not as much experience with it - customer knife. But when it's nice like that, it's not a steel I disrespect at all. Does a very good job of holding a great working edge for a good while, and a bit more naturally straightforward sharpening them.
I've not read the full 10 pages to this thread, but here are a few things that MIGHT not have been mentionned/proposed yet overall. And I don't think it will help you specifically with VG-10, but you never know.
- Cutting printer paper: I only accept getting the paper through the blade. I've seen all kind of slices proposed, and of them going straight down is the best. But an even more testing method is to grab into the paper with the blade going straight down, then hold that move to rather pull the paper up and through the cutting edge. Of course, you can straight pull up the paper through the blade as well, but is more difficult to get done right with any big enough sheet or slice of it, since any too far off the fingers holding the paper point will fail (not your fault, but the sheet of paper might "twist-curve over" the entry point and won't be strong enough not to tear where your pulling it up clashes with the paper itself twisting sideways from the cut).
So the best method to me overall is: naturally slicing the paper first, motionning all along the edge. 1-2 should suffice to highlight a particularly bad failure. When that is achieved, I'll cut "straight down" with the aforementionned method of pulling the paper up once driving the blade straightdown has seemlessly began the cut. Needs to be tested at a few important points: very near the heel, a bit further, middle of flat spot, middle of the blade, then essentially dividing the forward to tip edge in as much other segments. Then I take the slips of paper produced and straight pull them up through the blade - less hazardous and the paper won't twist-curve nearly as much in strips to a safer distance to the fingers holding it. I cut a few of them slips at as much segments of the edge as I feel like to be sure. I mean, if it's known carbon steel unit, and there were no other issues getting to this point, I just do 3-4 of them at the most important points. If it's unkwown SS and it's been reluctant all along, I might do 20-25 points. You eventually get good at it - it takes little time and you can basically skip-test and pull up through any sheet of paper without fear of pulling up the paper fingers through as well while still near enough them to cut through the straight hanging part... I can tell you, you're soon down to the basic thing that your very heels and very tips areas are not as good as the rest of the edges you get.
- Phantom burrs - while essentially most J-knives are impervious to it, any SS that's barely circling the 60RC mark AT BEST and very possibly going lower, especially since they're often grinded with a belt and perhaps the steel just behind the original apex has been deteriorated some, and depending on its composition, has a good chance of seeing a rather fine apex curl over itself overnight. It might cut through paper towels very well right after sharpening, then tomorrow behave rather ****** in an otherwise easy prep, confusing the audience...
Be patient if the steel has proven to be weak itself. Of course it helps having tried at least a dozen iterations of anything out there, but still beware especially of cheap circa-60RC or probably below SS ones, and of how much a careless belt grind can ruin them. Or of any SS customer knives, especially going down from cheap to hardware store prices.
- If you think it's deburred/without debris, dragging a paper towel or Kleenex down the primary tracing the edge might say otherwise. Especially when lightly damp - they'll stick better to anything and get weaker as well - so the tearing and where and how far up will be unmistakable against an otherwise clean swipe.
Useless really unless you're getting confused by a specific steel/blade properties, which I guess cheap VG-10 has a fair chance to do you. Behaved steels will respond very well - or not - simply with the printer paper tests to have you go to cutting stuff - and IF anything happens there, you'll learn from it well, either regarding a specific blade, or your methodology into any so far.
- Listen... of course, bad edges are FELT rather instantly. But good edges out of similar steels - just listen and learn to know you expect that much refinement in sound from a particular steel/category of steel at least from a lower grit stone. That goes for anything "paper". Hair tests, well yeah the sound of it (or just a ragged parch of skin burning/hair pulled raw after straight shaving) can get you past the most basic level, but the tests are what the tests are to them anywhere further.
- Don't get stuck with any artificial cutting test. Go onto those carrots, those peppers, those onions, those tomatoes. Make an ordinance of them any produces to how closely enough they can tell you anything you need to know of a really good edge. That's most useful than anything else once you get to the stage where you can consistently sharpen anything to utmost satisfying levels of cutting them stuff and holding them edges well.
Cut real stuff too and foremost! When failing it will STILL keep you more specifically informed than artificial tests.
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@ModRQC
Thank you for the term of Phantom burrs! Is it the phenomenon of burrs popping up at unexpected places and times? Too familiar with them when sharpening Globals. Not especially with VG-10, though. So far...
What is specific to VG-10 though is the tendency to form a wire edge. You may find in the archive pages and pages about avoiding, identifying and removing them. Once they occur I believe one better restarts the entire sharpening, from the coarsest stone on, and not running through the progression, but staying with coarser stones as long as it takes. Even if one succeeds in removing a wire edge, the remaining edge behind it is terribly damaged.
Thank you for the term of Phantom burrs! Is it the phenomenon of burrs popping up at unexpected places and times? Too familiar with them when sharpening Globals. Not especially with VG-10, though. So far...
What is specific to VG-10 though is the tendency to form a wire edge. You may find in the archive pages and pages about avoiding, identifying and removing them. Once they occur I believe one better restarts the entire sharpening, from the coarsest stone on, and not running through the progression, but staying with coarser stones as long as it takes. Even if one succeeds in removing a wire edge, the remaining edge behind it is terribly damaged.
If I am interpreting your reasoning correctly, the calculation results in an 11 degrees included angle.
I am new(-ish) to the concept of relief bevels. Not to sound selfish, but it would help my understanding if there were more information provided on the edge bevel and relief bevel angles. Angles intended, or implied** by measurements.
** implied .. due to deviations in measurement accuracy, bevels not perfectly straight, etc.
True. Is that what you/someone did? Can't be easy to hold a 5-6 degree bevel, or having it survive in the kitchen.I cannot fault your interpretation!
That being said, a 5.5° back bevel is the perfect base from which to set a 12° edge microbevel.
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Here’s a 5 degree relief or back bevel with an edge bevel of 10 degrees (on that side). But notably my “relief bevel” doesn’t go all the way to the edge, it’s just easing the transition from the edge bevel to the blade road. So it deviates from your implication above that relief bevels meet at the apex. The knife needed a bit of thinning but I didn’t want to mess with the damascus so I just took a bit off down low immediately BTE.
I may be off on terminology, but if someone did sharpen at 5dps all the way to the edge, then put a 10 dps edge on top of that, I’d refer to the 10 dps edge as a microbevel and I wouldn’t call the 5dps section a relief bevel (maybe just the edge bevel).
I didn't have VG-10 particularly in mind. As I said in the post, most of it might not help with VG-10 specifically. Just another pointer especially for "borderline" SS... if we're going to cut stuff that isn't food.
And indeed phantom burr in my mind is just about what you said.
