Need suggestions on a new setup

Discussion in 'Sharpening Station' started by 5370H55V, Mar 23, 2019.

Help Support Kitchen Knife Forums by donating:

  1. Mar 23, 2019 #1

    5370H55V

    5370H55V

    5370H55V

    Member

    Joined:
    Jun 8, 2015
    Messages:
    9
    Hey guys, finally decided to learn how to sharpen japanese knives by hand, so I'm looking for some input on building a new sharpening setup.

    I've got a budget of $150-200, and the pieces I think I need are (in order of priority):
    1) a med grit (1-1.5k) sharpening stone
    2) a high grit (3k-6k) finishing stone
    3) a flattening stone/diamond plate
    4) a low grit (<500) coarse stone
    5) a stone holder

    My current plan is to grab a well regarded combo stone (Ohishi 1k/6k) for $68, an Atoma 400 ($62) for both sharpening and flattening stones, and a cheap holder ($18) to fit all the needs. Would this be a good long term setup, or should I focus most of my budget into better (separate) stones to get started and use sandpaper+wet towels to achieve 3) and 5) and add those later? Any suggestions for stones that are more suitable for beginners?

    Also, I already have a norton 4k/8k combo stone (which I've read is approximately equal to shapton 2500/4500 grit) from sharpening straight razors before, but reviews for it here at KKF aren't exactly great. Should I keep it as my finishing stone and budget that money elsewhere, or is it bad enough that I'm better off with a different stone to learn on?

    Thank you in advance for your help.
     
  2. Mar 23, 2019 #2

    Migraine

    Migraine

    Migraine

    Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jun 24, 2018
    Messages:
    331
    What knives are you sharpening and how often do you need to sharpen them? You probably don't need a low grit stone to start out, and unless you are sharpening a lot I wouldn't rush to buy a flattening plate either. You're not going to dramatically dish your stone(s) sharpening a couple of knives for home use (if that is the situation you're in) for a good while. If you're a pro cutting 1000 carrots a day it's different. I honestly don't think just getting a very nice 1k grit stone and learning on it is a bad way to start out.

    I say this as someone who was in the same position as you not so long ago and looking back. I think slowly collecting nicer stuff is a better way to go than trying to get everything in budget at the start and having to compromise more. You'll get different (probably better) answers from the more experienced guys on here.
     
  3. Mar 23, 2019 #3

    lemeneid

    lemeneid

    lemeneid

    TFTFTFTFTF

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2018
    Messages:
    366
    You don’t need to buy too many things for now. Start with a good 1k stone, then see what you need from there. A good 1k sharpened knife will cut just about everything and with good bite. As many of us here have discussed, you don’t need super refined edges most of the time anyway.

    Work on your technique on your 1k stone first before getting other stones. If you can’t get good results on a 1k, there isn’t really much point shooting for other stones.
     
  4. Mar 23, 2019 #4

    kwk1

    kwk1

    kwk1

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2019
    Messages:
    48
    Location:
    MB, Canada
    Subbed, looking for direction on stones too. I read somewhere a person named Jason suggested a Shapton glass 500 and 2000 is all you need. Then, an Atoma 140 for flattening later. I was almost going to get these, then I heard they have minimal feedback for the user. I thought this would be bad for a beginners like us. I heard the Naniwa Pro stones had good feedback and was wondering if anyone could suggest a few of them to start. Thanks and hope I didn't mess up your post.
     
  5. Mar 23, 2019 #5

    Ivan Hersh

    Ivan Hersh

    Ivan Hersh

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2019
    Messages:
    147
    Location:
    USA
    Last edited: Mar 23, 2019
  6. Mar 23, 2019 #6

    Elliot

    Elliot

    Elliot

    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2019
    Messages:
    533
    Location:
    Washington
    Welcome to the dark arts.
    I, personally, wouldn't bother with anything sub 1k to start with. It's really not necessary until you get into polishing and thinning. When you do, SG500 is a great call.

    Priority should be your 1k -- she'll be doing the grunt work. I think JNS 1k is best in class, but you can't go wrong with Chosera, which may be easier to get depending on where you are. For something fine, I very much enjoy the Morihei 4k, which ain't tough to find. Chosera 3k is also strong.

    EDIT: Atoma 140 is king for flattening, but you can probably go cheaper.
     
  7. Mar 23, 2019 #7

    Migraine

    Migraine

    Migraine

    Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jun 24, 2018
    Messages:
    331
    I'd +1 the JNS 1000.
     
  8. Mar 23, 2019 #8

    kwk1

    kwk1

    kwk1

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2019
    Messages:
    48
    Location:
    MB, Canada
    Thanks.
    Was thinking Naniwa Pro 400, 800, then 2000 or 3000.
    If I went with the JNS 1000, what Naniwas would I add to it?
    The 400 and 2000 or 3000?
    The Nan Pro 800 or 1000 would cost me about $90ish CAD, the JNS 1000 would run $135 shipped.
     
  9. Mar 23, 2019 #9

    Elliot

    Elliot

    Elliot

    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2019
    Messages:
    533
    Location:
    Washington
    Yeah, so that's why I wasn't sure if JNS was your best option.
    I have the Chosera 400 -- good stone. Again, not sure you need something THAT course yet.

    BUT - I think you could go Chosera and be done. Lots of places still have them with the base if you want that -- including Amazon.

    So, VERY good, but budget: Chosera 800 and 3k (For the record, my first two stones, which I still use, were Chosera 800 and 3k)
    Ever so slightly better (again, just one dude's opinion): JNS 1k sub

    Since you're getting a 1k, I think 2k is unnecessary for now and I would make 3k or even 4k as your finer stone.

    If you're dead set on getting something coarser, both the Chosera 400 and SG 500 are great stones. Again, I wouldn't dip that deep for just edge work, but once you want to thin or polish, you'll need that and, at some point, even coarser. Also, stone flattening is an important thing in my opinion. MUCH more so when you get into those coarser stones.
     
  10. Mar 23, 2019 #10

    kwk1

    kwk1

    kwk1

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2019
    Messages:
    48
    Location:
    MB, Canada
    Yeah, I think the JNS I will skip, maybe if there was something else to add for free shipping but couldn't find anything.
    For the Chosera, 400 https://www.amazon.ca/gp/product/B001TPABDQ/ref=ox_sc_act_title_3?smid=A3F4J0W0AYMIJX&psc=1
    800 https://www.amazon.ca/gp/product/B001TPH9CM/ref=ox_sc_act_title_1?smid=A3F4J0W0AYMIJX&psc=1
    and 3000
    https://www.amazon.ca/gp/product/B000EBFWY4/ref=ox_sc_act_title_2?smid=A3F4J0W0AYMIJX&psc=1
    I could skip the 400 for now you say.
    I like that they are on a base so I would not have to get a stone holder.
    Now, are these splash and go like the newer Naniwa Pro stones?
    I don't know how long they will be available and would like to get a 400 eventually.
    I wonder if they sell these in Japan markets.
    Seems like they also come with a dressing ? stone too.
    Thanks for all you help, I think I will get the 800 and 3000 for now
    as long as the ones in the links are the correct ones. :)
     
  11. Mar 23, 2019 #11

    Elliot

    Elliot

    Elliot

    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2019
    Messages:
    533
    Location:
    Washington
    YUP, splash and go and about as easy to use as they come. The 3k is an especially smart buy, as, by many accounts it represents the finest 3k synthetic on the market. To this day, I have never bought another 3k. I don't use the nagura that it comes with, but not a bad addition, I suppose.

    The Chosera is sorta one of the granddaddy type stones. You will rarely find anyone who says something bad about them. You won't be disappointed.
    Should you have the funds and desire, I do know the 400 isn't always available, so would not be a mistake to grab.
     
  12. Mar 23, 2019 #12

    kwk1

    kwk1

    kwk1

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2019
    Messages:
    48
    Location:
    MB, Canada
    Thanks for you input, really appreciate it.
    I think they come from Japan through Amazon.
    Maybe the Chosera will always be available through Japan but I'm not sure.
    Anyway, I work 16 hours tonight and tomorrow so will decide on the 400
    then order them all tomorrow.
    I really want a Shibata Kotetsu gyuto as well. O-0
    Thanks again Elliot!
     
  13. Mar 23, 2019 #13

    Elliot

    Elliot

    Elliot

    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2019
    Messages:
    533
    Location:
    Washington
    Shibata makes very good knives. I am a bit of a knife nut (like all of us, I suppose) and happy to provide some advice here and there if it would be of use. Message anytime and good luck on your sharpening journey!
     
  14. Mar 23, 2019 #14

    Knife2meatu

    Knife2meatu

    Knife2meatu

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 28, 2018
    Messages:
    246
    Location:
    Montreal
    Are you aware of the issue of Naniwa Chosera being prone to cracking? Although the Pro stones were purportedly meant to resolve the problem by changing the binder, there are also accounts of the Pro stones having the problem. I mention this as a forewarning before recommending, should you take the risk of choosing these temperamental stones, that you consider ordering actual Naniwa Choseras from a Japanese vendor through Amazon.com instead of Naniwa Pros from a Canadian vendor. This way you can get the thicker 25mm stones, with bases and cleaning stones included, for nearly the same cost as bare 20mm Pro stones once you factor in shipping and tax. Assuming you're willing to accept the risk on the cracking front.

    If you search for Choseras on the American Amazon, and then avoid choosing an option sold directly by Amazon or Fulfilled by Amazon; but rather select one of the Japanese sellers offering free shipping from Japan but at a price competitive with those sold/fulfilled by Amazon (which charge you extra to ship from US to Canada), you can it free-shipped to Canada from Japan, but at the lower American price. I've personally used the seller A-StyleKK several times over that past couple of years, the most recent time being a few weeks ago. I've found that he ships using SAL and is reliable, even if he declined to provide me with the tracking # this latest time. Shipping took about 2 weeks.

    Finally, if you're looking to save an extra few bucks, I found that choosing to let my credit card handle the conversion fee to USD was roughly 1.5% cheaper than defaulting to letting Amazon take another slice off for that service. But your mileage may most certainly vary on this last point.

    Just my $0.02 CAD.
     
  15. Mar 23, 2019 #15

    Ivan Hersh

    Ivan Hersh

    Ivan Hersh

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2019
    Messages:
    147
    Location:
    USA
    The new Naniwa Super Ceramic Water Stone does not come attached to a holder and does not come with the dressing stone, I would advise getting the older Naniwa Chosera stone.

    Many sellers are posting they sell the new Naniwa Super Ceramic Water Stone stone but you receive the Naniwa Chosera stone.
    I feel the older Naniwa Chosera stone is really the better choice have no idea why these sellers are posting mis-leading information.
    P.S. They even put a stick on label on the box's saying it was a new Naniwa Super Ceramic Water Stone.
     
    Last edited: Mar 23, 2019
  16. Mar 24, 2019 #16

    KingShapton

    KingShapton

    KingShapton

    Active Member

    Joined:
    Feb 2, 2019
    Messages:
    39
    Location:
    Germany
    If you have not ordered yet, another option - slightly cheaper - would be Chosera 600 and Chosera 2000. The Chosera 600 is slightly slower than the Chosera 400 and slightly faster than the Chosera 800.

    Perfect with the Chosera 2000, this is cheaper than the Chosera 3000 and makes a very aggressive cutting edge with lots of bite.
     
  17. Mar 24, 2019 #17

    Ivan Hersh

    Ivan Hersh

    Ivan Hersh

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2019
    Messages:
    147
    Location:
    USA
    Great advice this is just the path i went, and you are correct they work just as you say.
    Had bought a King Ice Bear Gold 8000 and have found it really does a super job of finishing the blades edge, just passing the 3000 and going to the 8000 was i feel a good idea.
     
  18. Mar 24, 2019 #18

    kwk1

    kwk1

    kwk1

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2019
    Messages:
    48
    Location:
    MB, Canada
    Hi and thanks for the reply.
    The links I posted are from Amazon.ca.
    They are sold by ietomo Japan and fulfilled by Amazon.
    They ship free as I have prime.
    They also have a picture showing with a base and cleaning stone.
    Not sure but I think they are the real Chosera?
    Maybe they just show Chosera pic but ship the new Pro stones, I don't know.
    I see A-StyleKK on there too, thanks.
    They have the 2k stone which ietomo doesn't.
     
  19. Mar 24, 2019 #19

    kwk1

    kwk1

    kwk1

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2019
    Messages:
    48
    Location:
    MB, Canada
    Hi Ivan, the ones I linked are Chosera in the pic and the description.
    I did read about some cracking, just can't remember the possible causes.
     
    Last edited: Mar 24, 2019
  20. Mar 24, 2019 #20

    Ivan Hersh

    Ivan Hersh

    Ivan Hersh

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2019
    Messages:
    147
    Location:
    USA
    All three of the Chosera stones i bought from Amazon are Chosera stones with their carrier glued on and a dressing stone included.
    I do feel someone i find it hard to think it's Naniwa who put the bar code stickers on the Chosera box's calling them a Super Ceramic Water Stone but it is mis-leading to buyers.
    I am really happy with their performance of my Chosera stones and so far there has been no sign of any cracking.
     
  21. Mar 24, 2019 #21

    kwk1

    kwk1

    kwk1

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2019
    Messages:
    48
    Location:
    MB, Canada
    Hi and thanks for the suggestion King.
    A 600 and a 2000 would cost me about $220 CAD.
    An 800 and 3000 would cost me about $288 CAD.
    Not sure what to do.
    I heard the 3000 is a really nice stone.
    If I got a 600 and 2000, what could I get next?
    If I got the 800 and 3000, I would get the 4oo next.
    An Atoma 140 would be on the list as well to flatten.
    Thanks!
    Anyone else have a suggestion or agree to one of these?
     
  22. Mar 24, 2019 #22

    Ivan Hersh

    Ivan Hersh

    Ivan Hersh

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2019
    Messages:
    147
    Location:
    USA
    Unless you are going to sharpen maybe 100 knives everyday, you don't need to buy the Atoma 140 flattening item.
    and unless you have a badly damaged blade you can skip the 400 i like having it but i could have just went with the 800.
    Now i already had the King 8000 and it has worked very well, if i had not already bought the King i would have went with the 3000.
     
  23. Mar 24, 2019 #23

    Michi

    Michi

    Michi

    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Jan 13, 2019
    Messages:
    1,109
    Location:
    Brisbane, Australia
    Probably nothing. If you have knives that aren't seriously blunt, you won't need a coarser stone. If you have German soft steel knives, you won't need a finer stone.

    If you have Japanese knives, the most sensible thing to add would be a 5000 or 6000 stone.

    A flattening plate is nice. But, really, all you need is a bit of smooth and flat concrete, or a ceramic paving stone or similar, and there is your flattening plate. Or find a piece of plate glass, acrylic, or aluminium and stick a piece of 120 grit sandpaper onto it with a bit of water. There is your flattening plate for probably less than $5.

    Michi.
     
  24. Mar 24, 2019 #24

    kwk1

    kwk1

    kwk1

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2019
    Messages:
    48
    Location:
    MB, Canada
    Hi Ivan, I won't get the Atoma till I might need it.
    I don't have too many knives to sharpen so the stones will probably be good for a while.
    I was really set on the 800 and the 3000 so that's what I will order.
    If I feel the need to get a 400, can always get one later.
    Thanks again for your input!

    Hi Michi, thanks for your reply.
    I've decided to go with the 800 and 3000 for now.
    The steels I have are:
    S30V
    S35VN
    M390
    ZDP-189
    Zwilling steel 57 hardness
    will get a gyuto with R2

    Yes, none of my blades are hacked or in horrible condition so no need for a 400 stone now.
    The Atoma same thing, no need for it at the moment.
    Thank you again and everyone else for all the suggestions.
    Ordering the stones now.
     
  25. Mar 24, 2019 #25

    5370H55V

    5370H55V

    5370H55V

    Member

    Joined:
    Jun 8, 2015
    Messages:
    9
    Thanks for asking all the right questions for me kwk. After reading the responses since yesterday I decided to go with chosera given how highly rated they are and their splash and go nature. I was considering the shapton pro and suehiro cerax as well, but both require soaking.

    I'll probably go with the 800 and 3000 setup for now since they work out to be around $160 USD (or $220 cad) off amazon. I might grab a diamond plate later as I do have pocket knives with super steels like zdp189, hap40, m390, etc with thick grinds which I would like to thin down. For sharpening/flattening double duty what's better, atoma 140 or dmt extra coarse?
     
  26. Mar 24, 2019 #26

    KingShapton

    KingShapton

    KingShapton

    Active Member

    Joined:
    Feb 2, 2019
    Messages:
    39
    Location:
    Germany
    For the first time i would stay with the 2000. First you have to learn to master your first 2 stones, learn how to hold an angle, build muscle-memory and get your knifes really Sharp. And belive me, with the 2000 you can get your knifes ****ing sharp!

    Later it depends on your knifes, for stainless i would stop at 2000, for Carbon or HSS you can go higher, 4000 - 6000, maybe 8000.

    And the "cracking-problem" is simple, don't soak a splash and go stone and take care that the Stones can dry normaly.
     
  27. Mar 24, 2019 #27

    kwk1

    kwk1

    kwk1

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2019
    Messages:
    48
    Location:
    MB, Canada
    Hi 5370H55V, sorry I took over your thread, I was looking for the same advice and hate making duplicate threads.
    Yeah, I just ordered the 800 and 3000 off Amazon.ca and it came to $255.00 so less than I thought because they didn't charge any taxes which happens sometimes.
    I kind of wanted the 3000 then I will never need anything finer.
    If I find the 800 cutting too slow, which I doubt, then I could get the 400.
    I have no experience with flattening stones.
    What I have read if the Atoma 140 is mentioned often, I'm sure a dmt would also work, I am just not sure which one. I'm glad you were able to make a decision on the stones and have fun with them, I can't wait to get them!
     
  28. Mar 24, 2019 #28

    Knife2meatu

    Knife2meatu

    Knife2meatu

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 28, 2018
    Messages:
    246
    Location:
    Montreal
    Those are the same Choseras, yes. My point was that going through amazon.Com instead of .Ca is cheaper -- for instance the 400 works out to be about $10 cheaper right now, albeit at the expense of shipping speed. Although I don't know if canadian prime membership gets you free shipping from the US amazon...

    Mind you, I'm not sure I'd bother for $10, especially if I was in a hurry to get sharpening; but when I bought a new 400 a few weeks ago that difference was a little more than $15, because of different exchange rates then; and I was in no hurry to get my new 400 stone because it was just a preemptive replacement for my current one. And if I'd been buying 2 or 3 stones at that same time, the difference in price between going through Amazon.ca and Amazon.com as I've described would've amounted to $50 or $60, so...

    Like I said, just my $0.02 CAD.
     
  29. Mar 24, 2019 #29

    kwk1

    kwk1

    kwk1

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2019
    Messages:
    48
    Location:
    MB, Canada
    Hey King, myself I took a knife sharpening course so I have an idea of how to do it.
    Certainly will be fun learning though with my own stones.
     
  30. Mar 24, 2019 #30

    kwk1

    kwk1

    kwk1

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2019
    Messages:
    48
    Location:
    MB, Canada
    Hey Knife2meatu, your input is very much appreciated. :)
    My order for some reason like it's happened in the past, they didn't charge tax so it came to $255.oo.
    As for Prime, the Canadian one won't work for the U.S. site but when I did order something from them before, I signed up for a free Prime trial so that order did ship for free.
    You just have to remember to cancel or uncheck auto-renew.
     

Share This Page