That's a fair point. Then it would be the best to find out which one lost less after the second deal.
New 240 Gyuto: Wat, Yoshikane or TF
- Thread starter Hoppy
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DitmasPork
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Respectfully, if you’d read my previous posts, I stated that comments were my opinion.
Don’t get me wrong, I love Mazs, have three of them—but if my apartment were on fire, and needed to rescue either my Maz, ShiHan, Y Tanaka or denka, I’d certainly grab the denka. For me, denka has all I need/want in an all a round gyuto.
Regarding denka’s cost and ‘laws of diminishing returns’—I think I’d ignore that concept about a decade ago. My interests and collection of J-knives doesn’t use ‘good value,’ or ‘bang-for-buck’ as parameters. Anyone sniffing around a denka knows this. True, Togashi is cheaper, well regarded—but it ain’t a denka. Sure, buying a denka put a dentin my wallet—but knives aren’t an egalitarian entitlement. Sadly, some cooks priced out of buying denkas—for them there’re lots of other knives.
TF denka, best of the three choices by a long shot—just my opinion. It’s a knife I’ve responded to exceptionally well.
210 Denka might be okay. It is a bit pricey. But if it always comes with high quality grinding (better quality control), I will take it as fair price.
240 is too much. It is definately overpriced. But if someone like denka very much, he will go for it anyway. But I do not think it is a good idea to recommend it to anyone who has not try denka before.
270 is not that expensive compared to 240. lol...
I can only say, Teruyasu Fujiwara has a very nice business mode.
Oh, and I own a TF Mab (Sugi) and a Wat and numerous others. I’ve used a very well cared for Denka, and personally Idt TF is all that. For the price, I’d go for a Wat. Personally. All that said, don’t sleep on the shiro kamo from KnS house brand. $250, nice height and profile, SG2. I’ve been very, VERY happy with that purchase
user 16756
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here's the thing.
I am actually reading what you're writing. and whether you mean to or not, you continue to position this as if TF knives are better and by characterizing over and over again how all these other knives that are less expensive are "bang for buck" you try to change the argument away from something that is just factually true: most of the competitors to TF are IMMENSELY better knives objectively. whether this makes them better knives overall as a subjective experience for the end user isnt the point, you're giving advice to someone else who wants to spend their money a disservice.
also, if you dont mind me asking and since you already take a lot of pictures, would you mind showing us the current state of the blade roads of your current TF user?
DitmasPork
Senior Member
Of the three choices, the TF denka is a better knife—simply because it’s the knife I enjoy using the most, for me a better cutter and better steel—others may come to different conclusion, which is fine. ‘Better,’ ‘best’ is purely subjective, based on my tastes. My preference leans denka.
For me to say TF denka is the best of the bunch is not saying Wat and Yoshi aren’t good. We all have our faves. More objectively/subjectively—Wat is too heavy; Yoshi too light, profile too flat for me.
I think whatever the OP ends up buying from the shortlist is a solid choice. I make no judgements on whether someone spends $200 or 1k on a gyuto—I treat everyone as if they are knowledgeable and know what they’re getting into, don’t even question what they should spend unless they state price points. The higher price of TF denka does offer more bling value—in addition to it being a wonderful knife.
Ultimately, they’re just knives, just tools. Gotta jump in somewhere—shallow or deep end.
@Hoppy as you can tell the knives you narrowed down to are very different and ideally you should try all of them at some point to pick what works for you. If you plan on doing that then just start somewhere no amount of reading will tell you which knife works best for you. If you just want to buy one out of the ones you mentioned and go on with your life then Watanabe/Toyama is probably the best since it is a very good, middle of the road knife. The current stainless clad ones lost something to me and I prefer older, heavier iron clad ones, but stainless cladding is more practical and the knife is less polarizing now that it is positioned smack in the middle of the knife range.
Which knife to buy Questioner exists for a reason, without knowing your experience, budget, etc it is very difficult to recommend anything. People are just recommending what they like, but even that is not constant as preferences change over time and with experience with more knives.
Which knife to buy Questioner exists for a reason, without knowing your experience, budget, etc it is very difficult to recommend anything. People are just recommending what they like, but even that is not constant as preferences change over time and with experience with more knives.
DitmasPork
Senior Member
Sensible advice! BTW, what do the newer 240 Wats weigh? My iron clad 240 that I bought direct, in 2014 weighs 276g.
To the point of your first sentence. Trying/buying/using different makers definitely helps in defining knife tastes, preferences. TBH, it took me about 8 years—and many knives—to find my grove, and articulate what I want in J-knives.
214-230g in my experience, most seem to be in 220s. The first 210 iron clad Toyama I bought around 2015 was around 230g, that knife impressed me so much that for a while I thought nothing except a 240 mm of the same could be better.
Took me a very long time to figure out what I like too and as soon as I did it seemed to change. To me it is a moving target. I have some knives that I figured were perfect for me that I haven't used for a while due to not having any impulse control and buying more knives and when I go back to some of them they are not perfect for me anymore. Also knives that I disliked in the past now seem to fit me well and so it goes.
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DitmasPork
Senior Member
Moving target is too right!
If I were to generalize my gyuto comfort zone, it would be: Sanjo or French; rustic; one maker workshop; kurouchi; 225mm blade length x 52mm; carbon core, iron clad; midweight.
But life would be boring without variety.
However, now I'm digging stainless, recently got my first 240 ginsan! It's a Sakai, slick and shiny.
OOTB Wat/Toyama is by far the best of the lot. If a knife is never truly yours without some work however, TF fills the spot brightly.
To me, although Yoshi are such wonderful cutters, they're still my least favorite option in your choice.
And BTW S. Tanaka 240mm Blue is probably the strongest bang for bucks contender.
To me, although Yoshi are such wonderful cutters, they're still my least favorite option in your choice.
And BTW S. Tanaka 240mm Blue is probably the strongest bang for bucks contender.
Carl Kotte
Senior Member
Buy a denka!
Jason183
Senior Member
If I’m you, just buy all three of them since you’ve already narrowed it down to 3 choices.
Everyone have different cutting techniques and depends on what you cut every day.
So Just try them yourself and keep the ones that suits you the most, sell the other two in B/S/T.
Everyone have different cutting techniques and depends on what you cut every day.
So Just try them yourself and keep the ones that suits you the most, sell the other two in B/S/T.
It's all true only after quite some work on stones to make it thin BTE in the first place, so I'm a bit hesitant to recommend TF to inexperienced sharpener. I do love the TF AS steel though.
user 16756
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precisely this. and even then, it's not exactly an easy knife to thin given they often dont come that great. compared to some other knives which are a bit thick ootb to my taste, e.g. Hinoura, I think the latter is WAY easier to get where you want it.
this is why I suggested, if one really wants a TF, save the money you'd spend getting Aogami Super which to me personally is a sidegrade at best and get one of the shirogami 1 knives that Forty has sorted out for Sugi. then you get the ultra high hardness steel but none of the problems, and it will be way easier to maintain over time.
Im going to be 100% honest; if someone shows me their user TF and it still has the stock finish Id be kind of suspicious about their take on the knife. Ive now worked on more than one and it's a hard knife to get into shape. the 210 mab I linked earlier was a complete mess and the only knife Ive ever gotten that was in worse shape ootb was a Murata funayuki which cost me less than 100 dollars. sure it's good now but it's not even the same knife as the one I bought anymore.
compared to a Toyama that's almost certainly good to go day 1, it's not even a contest for me. now if you want to pay up for a TF that's already fixed then Im not gonna say that's not a good knife but it's definitely not the same knife you get if you just stroll on down to EE and click add to cart.
Corradobrit1
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Not all TF blades have chonky grinds. If they are thicker behind the edge ask TF to thin the blade.
I disagree...AS is not a 'side grade' at all. I have TF W#1 and AS and the steels are very different.
user 16756
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I mean I really dont mean to imply AS isnt great stuff. But White 1 is really incredible stuff in general IMO, and if I could get any knife in any steel, Id choose White 1 pretty much every time.
such that I dont think AS is better. different, sure, better? not IMO and IME anyway.
I have or had multiples of 3 choices and I'd recommend Yoshi SKD plus Wat/Toyama Stainless clad blue 2. Yes buy them both since you have the budget for a 240 denka, and sell the one you don't like.
Yoshi is a lighter mid-weight and cuts like a laser. It's more laserish than most typical lasers (Sakai monosteel ones I mean) and it cuts better than most knives out there OOTB regardless of the price range. The Epic Edge Yoshi black dammy SLD is a tiny bit taller and beefier which is my current keeper. The only thing I don't like about Yoshi is the super flat profile, which is less a problem on Hasegawa soft rubber board IME as the surface texture and softness is forgiving.
Wat/Toyama is a heavier mid-weight or workhorse which also cuts everything very very well OOTB. Less laserish than Yoshi but still better than most. I like Kato grind better (for tip area and machi) in this category but Wat is very close. Wat/Toyama blue 2 steel is one of my favorites. The edge could be keen, toothy and stable, and the retention is also good. IME better retention than Y. Tanaka blue 1/2 steels. IME better stability than Kato WH (both new and old stocks). IME better keenness and retention than Kaeru honyaki blue steel. The only other carbon steel matches the experience is TF AS which is actually a little more stable IME. A Watoyama with a wider tang and machi plus a thinner tip will be a perfect knife IMO.
Yoshi is a lighter mid-weight and cuts like a laser. It's more laserish than most typical lasers (Sakai monosteel ones I mean) and it cuts better than most knives out there OOTB regardless of the price range. The Epic Edge Yoshi black dammy SLD is a tiny bit taller and beefier which is my current keeper. The only thing I don't like about Yoshi is the super flat profile, which is less a problem on Hasegawa soft rubber board IME as the surface texture and softness is forgiving.
Wat/Toyama is a heavier mid-weight or workhorse which also cuts everything very very well OOTB. Less laserish than Yoshi but still better than most. I like Kato grind better (for tip area and machi) in this category but Wat is very close. Wat/Toyama blue 2 steel is one of my favorites. The edge could be keen, toothy and stable, and the retention is also good. IME better retention than Y. Tanaka blue 1/2 steels. IME better stability than Kato WH (both new and old stocks). IME better keenness and retention than Kaeru honyaki blue steel. The only other carbon steel matches the experience is TF AS which is actually a little more stable IME. A Watoyama with a wider tang and machi plus a thinner tip will be a perfect knife IMO.
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Not a single TF blade OOTB I've handled or seen online has zero edge. And the thickness right above the edge could be anywhere between 0.1 mm to 0.4 mm.
TBH I like the TF AS steel better than the White 1. After thinning them to zero edge, TF white 1 starts to be really chippy. I had to thicken it to 0.1mm thickness to stabilize it. The AS on the contrary, could take the thinnest grind and edge without chipping. The edge retention was good on both although the AS was truly remarkable.
user 16756
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if one likes the profile and height of a Toyama, but wishes for a thinner BTE experience, there's always Masahi.
I got one of his knives in stainless clad Blue #1 secondhand off the BST that's from Yoshiro Cutlery. It's a very similar pattern but considerably thinner than my stainless clad Toyoma. good f&f and grind too. I tend to prefer some chonk myself but it's worth a look for someone into that sort of thing.
and I will once again shill for a stainless clad Togashi. Hitohira is pumping them out ATM and you have your choice of sharpeners and subsequently grinds; wide bevels, full convexes, etc.
Actually they've been OOS for a bit online.
tostadas
Hobbyist / Craftsman
If you get a TF, make it a western handle one! It has really nice forward balance compared to most western handled knives
I also recommend the Denka, because it is the thinnest behind the edge after you make it the thinnest behind the edge.
Anyway, not much to add at this point. Think the OP has all the relevant info.
DitmasPork
Senior Member
Yeah, the finger notch works better, makes more design sense with the western handle. I’m a wa guy, but western all the way with denka for me.
Is zero edge a requirement for the knife to be good? TF AS is better in my experience and my use than TF white 1. Stays sharper longer and is more stable. I don't look for zero edge though as I haven't found a truly stable zero edge yet on any knife in any steel. Some are more stable than others, but for my use none last long enough for me to want zero edge. Interestingly enough a few stainless clad Wats I've seen in the last 2 or so years were too thin and chippy out of the box and even though they cut great needed to be re-sharpened to a bit thicker edge to be stable. Very good knives nonetheless.
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It really depends on what you cut and what you cut them on. When I use my TBS end grain maple board and cherry board, every knife chips when I ground them to zero edge. However, after I switched to Hasegawa soft rubber, many of them can stay stable with zero edge (in my definition ~0.05 mm thinness above the edge or maybe slightly thinner, not really 0.01 thin). Watoyama blue 2 and TF AS as 2 good examples.
Good to know, I haven't tried since switching from end grain maple to hinoki and brown hasegawa. I am sure I would have a better experience on these softer boards, I just don't want to be that careful with my knives. It is enough that I am already very careful with them by using appropriate boards, washing right away, using good stones and cutting appropriate stuff in appropriate ways. I don't need to be even more careful for dubious cutting improvement
At some point these tools become unusable to me if babying them interferes with my use. No zero edges for me, no need the knives cut great in my use without
