Lol. This is exactly one thing I’m worried about. Our daughters are 9 and love a healthy mess. Letters, glue, homework, books, etc. we brought this up to cabinet makers but they still haven’t responded. Waiting to see what they suggest next week.
New Kitchen - Cooktops From 2 different brands?
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Lol. This is exactly one thing I’m worried about. Our daughters are 9 and love a healthy mess. Letters, glue, homework, books, etc. we brought this up to cabinet makers but they still haven’t responded. Waiting to see what they suggest next week.
I still wash dishes by hand. It’s embarrassing but it is what it is. Think it’s remnant from working as dishwasher at Woolworth in the 80s.
Solid advice - thx for this. Wanted u shape but this house couldn’t accommodate. Also, wife and I made a list of most popular dishes and needed materials. Eg, Italian meal needs w pots/pans, x ingredients from frig and cupboards, y heating and ventilation and z plates upon which to serve. We cataloged our meals over past 3 weeks or so then wrote down our habits. Needless to say, very interesting findings like we don’t use as much garlic as we thought and we waste lots of canned goods. It was pain in the ass, but this gave us data points from which to build the use case and needed storage. And you’re right - deep drawers and corner storage is key - we got “magic corner” tools to help us. Quite frankly, we still haven’t looked at clean up yet. Hoping to analyze this next week. I’m getting old and back starts hurting when carrying cleaned plates to storage area.
Thank you and sound perspective for sure.
dishwashers are awesome. i got a commercial miele that has all sub-30minute cycle programs.
another fun idea for you. it would be trivial to add a gas stubout to a cabinet, perhaps a lower one adjacent to your hestan range and rage hood. the placement inside the cabinet depends on how you intend to use the cabinet, but obviously position it so that it interferes as little as possible with the cabinet's main function. close to an edge or corner (but with enough clearance to actually work!), or perhaps even positioned horizontally coming out of the back wall instead of from below.
to this stubout you can put a valve and then a quick connect. the valve is redundant because the quick connect doesn't flow gas with nothing inserted, but still nice to have.
then you can hook a hose to the quick connect and plug the other end into a wok or portable pizza oven (gas ooni?). you can set this appliance on top of your range and turn on the blower to capture combustion products and excess heat. this opens up the door for fun but rarely-used gas appliances that can be stashed away when not in use.
https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B01CLJFSIG
you can use something like that. i use the same thing for my outdoor grill because propane tanks are stupid and annoying.
if you have a gas grill, you can do the same thing. and use the same quick connect as you used indoors so you can simply plug and play. unplug the grill and use your pizza oven or wok ourdoors when it's nice out.
another fun idea for you. it would be trivial to add a gas stubout to a cabinet, perhaps a lower one adjacent to your hestan range and rage hood. the placement inside the cabinet depends on how you intend to use the cabinet, but obviously position it so that it interferes as little as possible with the cabinet's main function. close to an edge or corner (but with enough clearance to actually work!), or perhaps even positioned horizontally coming out of the back wall instead of from below.
to this stubout you can put a valve and then a quick connect. the valve is redundant because the quick connect doesn't flow gas with nothing inserted, but still nice to have.
then you can hook a hose to the quick connect and plug the other end into a wok or portable pizza oven (gas ooni?). you can set this appliance on top of your range and turn on the blower to capture combustion products and excess heat. this opens up the door for fun but rarely-used gas appliances that can be stashed away when not in use.
https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B01CLJFSIG
you can use something like that. i use the same thing for my outdoor grill because propane tanks are stupid and annoying.
if you have a gas grill, you can do the same thing. and use the same quick connect as you used indoors so you can simply plug and play. unplug the grill and use your pizza oven or wok ourdoors when it's nice out.
Damn - that’s cool and hardcore stuff - awesome. Never thought about this. Would love a high power wok burner. Folks in neighborhood doing a “wet” kitchen where in the backyard, they put an industrial grade wok burner and deep fry whole fish or wok cook stuff that stinks (in a good way). Wifey and I love Thai and Vietnamese food but man, using fish sauce with high heat is tough - so we thought about wet kitchen in the back, but just haven’t done anything. YET.
also, don’t have a decent grill, just a 15 year old Weber which is still in storage until house built. Thx for this idea, never thought of it!!!!
pic of outdoor setup at summer home
Spectacular. Just jaw dropping!!!!
check out my weber in the pic above. that thing's like older than i am. that's one of their first ever gas grills.
For sure that’s legit. Love Weber and always wanted to buy a new grill. Have looked at grills but again, never pulled the trigger.
Nice setup - opened my eyes up to something new.
The old Caddy and the gas hook-up are both killer 
If you are planning a new kitchen why not plan for a dishwasher? They are cheap compared to other appliances.I still wash dishes by hand. It’s embarrassing but it is what it is. Think it’s remnant from working as dishwasher at Woolworth in the 80s.
I don't think anyone commented much on the fan/vent, so I wanted to give my opinion. I had a downdraft vent/fan behind my Dacor range and it absolutely made for terrible ventilation, exhaust work, and even impacted heating efficiency. It was so bad that grease would travel into strange places around the living/dining room in our open floorplan. I'd highly recommend you avoid them for serious cooking, particularly if you are going to be searing, frying, etc. They just don't work well. And importantly, in my experience, they pull the flame back, towards the fan, instead of vertically, so I found when comparing that water boiling was delayed by as much as 50% depending on which burner I used (front/back/sides). I probably wouldn't get a range (or especially a fryer) without an overhead vent hood of some type if at all avoidable on your end, which sounds like it is. Just something to think about!
swarfrat
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Sorry, but the steamer really strikes me as being like one of the many "additional" knives that are included in a big set, something they throw in to make you feel better about getting more stuff.
Is the reason you're getting such a deal on because nobody wants them and they can't move them any other way? Is it even a current product? I didn't see it on Gaggenau's website. (Maybe it's hiding, their site is a pain to navigate.)
I would really think through the whole process of living with it day-to-day. How much cleaning/descaling/maintenance is needed? How often? How long does it take? Is it really less time/energy/work to use it verses a pot and basket?
If it's installed and you find you aren't crazy about it you can't remove it and have that missing countertop granite (marble, quartz, Corian, whatever...) magically reappear.
Is the reason you're getting such a deal on because nobody wants them and they can't move them any other way? Is it even a current product? I didn't see it on Gaggenau's website. (Maybe it's hiding, their site is a pain to navigate.)
I would really think through the whole process of living with it day-to-day. How much cleaning/descaling/maintenance is needed? How often? How long does it take? Is it really less time/energy/work to use it verses a pot and basket?
If it's installed and you find you aren't crazy about it you can't remove it and have that missing countertop granite (marble, quartz, Corian, whatever...) magically reappear.
Jovidah
I'll make you a sponsor offer you can't refuse...
This is probably gonna be painstakingly long but I saw a lot of good and interesting points I wanted to add a few cents to (or simply agree with in more words).
Personally I hate 180 degree turns though at least for cutting / prepping. Hence why I really prefer a generous amount of cutting / prep space next to the stove. It's far easier to transfer stuff just a meter to the left without dropping anything than to do that during a 180 turn. Your mileage may vary if you're less clumsy but it's worthy of consideration.
I agree that I'd probably move the stove a bit to the left. The small part to the right of it right now looks a bit... like a dark forgotten corner that's too small to be useful, doesn't get good lightning, and its a bit... iduno.. weird. Like a 1 meter gap without a cupboard. I think it would look better if you at least filled up that gap with open-shelving, and-or just moved the stove a meter or so to the left, and then that whole space to the right of the stove becomes far more useful.
Also, lightning. Could be because of the rendering but that really looks like a 'dark' corner. My major complaint in my own kitchen is that in some places the lightnign isn't that good, or for example I try to rely on ceiling light but in some positions my own body ends up blocking it. Lightning can really make or break a kitchen, both aesthethically and functionally.
When it comes to that large open wall I can see both sides of it. Filling it all up with cupboards adds functionality but will make the whole place feel more cramped. A compromise solution is to add at least some open shelving for stuff that doesn't look like crap. Plates, glasses, pans, whatever. Open shelving adds storage without making the room feel smaller.
Unless your ventilation is really superduper awesome though it's preferable if anything on open shelving is stuff you use at least on a regular basis. Personally I really like having all my pans on open shelving because it's really convenient when cooking, but others may consider this a complete nightmare because it looks more cluttered.
As a compromise to a compromise you could also do it on part of the wall, like the part to the right of the stove.
McMan also makes another very good point about this: only having low-height storage means you're constantly bending over all the time. As a tall person I can sympathise with this; all my most regularly used items are all stored above the waist level. Anything below waist height is - to me - subpar unergonomical storage.
-Figure out a solution for any appliances you have. Consider making dedicated 'appliance garage' cupboards that you can close off with a door or something.
-As mentioned by others such photos are often made in kitchens that see little actual usage, and / or after someone cleaned up all the clutter for an hour.
-A lot of this is about discipline to actually put everything away in cupboards all the time so it's not cluttering up the islands / counters. A large factor in this is to make sure you have enough storage space and it's convenient enough that you'll actually bother to put things away.
I agree that 'workflow' should be the starting point of a design setup. Its often forgotten or neglected in design. And also too often 'cookie-cutter' standard recommendations like 'kitchen triangle' are followed, that aren't necessarily applicable to how everyone cooks. Personally for example I tend to do very little cooking in water, so I frankly don't care much how accessible my sink is in relation to my stove... I don't even care much about the fridge to be honest, since I tend to grab everything at once before cooking. I care far more about where I have my prime prep-space and cutting space compared to the stove. But ask 10 different people waht they use the most in a kitchen and you'll get 10 different answers... whats most important is that the setup conforms to how you cook to make that the most efficient as possible - with the least unnecessary movement.I agree--a bar sink on the island and a work sink on the same wall as the stove. Plus, with that layout it'd be easy to plumb a wall faucet behind the stove if you wanted one.
I might suggest rethinking the entire layout though... My read of these plans is a layout that lacks flow and work paths with an island placement that's a barrier not a benefit.
The way it is now, with the sink on the island only, will have you doing a lot of 180-turns to go from stove to sink. The fridge is in a location where it is only convenient to the island, so you'll find yourself using that corner of the island as either a landing strip or a prep counter, which potentially makes the fridge-to-counter-to-stove path also depend on 180-turns. This could be avoided if there was counter space to the right of the stove, but there's little real estate there. And the flow to get from the fridge to the counter to the left of the stove is a weird S-path to avoid the island. Plus, the fridge-to-sink path is an S-path too.
Also, there are no upper cabinets on the stove wall, so that's all space that trades function for aesthetics. I can see why they might not be wanted--it'd clutter a clear wall--but perhaps the workaround is to put a bank of lowers, middle, uppers all the way to the left in the corner and sacrifice a bit of counter space there for the sake of storage? I don't know how long you plan to stay in the house, but bending over for everything stops getting fun at a certain point
I hope I don't sound like a kitchen grump... I know kitchens are very personal. For me, I'd be bumping into things, spinning like a top, and grumpy to be constantly bending over.
Personally I hate 180 degree turns though at least for cutting / prepping. Hence why I really prefer a generous amount of cutting / prep space next to the stove. It's far easier to transfer stuff just a meter to the left without dropping anything than to do that during a 180 turn. Your mileage may vary if you're less clumsy but it's worthy of consideration.
I agree that I'd probably move the stove a bit to the left. The small part to the right of it right now looks a bit... like a dark forgotten corner that's too small to be useful, doesn't get good lightning, and its a bit... iduno.. weird. Like a 1 meter gap without a cupboard. I think it would look better if you at least filled up that gap with open-shelving, and-or just moved the stove a meter or so to the left, and then that whole space to the right of the stove becomes far more useful.
Also, lightning. Could be because of the rendering but that really looks like a 'dark' corner. My major complaint in my own kitchen is that in some places the lightnign isn't that good, or for example I try to rely on ceiling light but in some positions my own body ends up blocking it. Lightning can really make or break a kitchen, both aesthethically and functionally.
When it comes to that large open wall I can see both sides of it. Filling it all up with cupboards adds functionality but will make the whole place feel more cramped. A compromise solution is to add at least some open shelving for stuff that doesn't look like crap. Plates, glasses, pans, whatever. Open shelving adds storage without making the room feel smaller.
Unless your ventilation is really superduper awesome though it's preferable if anything on open shelving is stuff you use at least on a regular basis. Personally I really like having all my pans on open shelving because it's really convenient when cooking, but others may consider this a complete nightmare because it looks more cluttered.
As a compromise to a compromise you could also do it on part of the wall, like the part to the right of the stove.
McMan also makes another very good point about this: only having low-height storage means you're constantly bending over all the time. As a tall person I can sympathise with this; all my most regularly used items are all stored above the waist level. Anything below waist height is - to me - subpar unergonomical storage.
Yeah trash is important to consider. Unless you're someone who's a big fan of using garbage bowls while prepping, I think it's as important as anything else in the 'kitchen triangle'. When I'm prepping I go to my garbage more than to my sink. Since I'm poor and live in a rental kitchen for me the easiest solution is to just have a standalone trash can that I can move around, so I literlaly just slide it over next to my prep spot, but there's a million other ways to go about this (and most are far more elegant and prettier than mine). Bottom line is just to keep it in mind when planning. It bothers the hell out of me whenever I'm at my parents place that they don't have this set up efficiently.
Those kitchen all tend to share a similar '0 clutter' aesthethic. If that's what you want some things to consider:Great point and didn’t think of that when looking at those kitchens. But your logic makes sense - those kitchens are more for show. We’re die hard cooks and I’m in early 50s and wife is mid 40s. We’ve been married for almost 20 years and love to cook - hence, love of knives, duck press and all things food related. That said, it’s hard not to go crazy here in vegas after living in San Jose area for a long time. Love the thoughtfulness of the responses and your point of compromise is so true. Gonna see how much a second sink will cost but that’s game changing advice and wife also loves the idea. We go back and forth but we’re thinking to keep this house long term here in vegas. If we sold our houses back near San Jose area, we could afford more here in vegas but we figured that it’s best to keep those places….at least for now. Both wifey and I spend vast majority of time in kitchen so we wanted “perfection” to some degree….but then I remember that perfection is something to be pursued but never attained
-Figure out a solution for any appliances you have. Consider making dedicated 'appliance garage' cupboards that you can close off with a door or something.
-As mentioned by others such photos are often made in kitchens that see little actual usage, and / or after someone cleaned up all the clutter for an hour.
-A lot of this is about discipline to actually put everything away in cupboards all the time so it's not cluttering up the islands / counters. A large factor in this is to make sure you have enough storage space and it's convenient enough that you'll actually bother to put things away.
Jovidah
I'll make you a sponsor offer you can't refuse...
I second the '1 foot overhang makes a good enough overhang to work as a good bar with a stool'. Mine is about that and works well. One thing to keep in mind is that any overhang makes any cupboards below it less accessible. Personally I only have overhang on 1 end of the island, where there's no doors. You could have it on both ends, or turn things around a bit depending on where you want your cupboards and where you want your bar/overhang, but ideally they aren't in the same place or you'll hate your life anytime you try to get anything out of your cupboard.
With that in mind I'm a fan of bar / overhang, not just for 'parties' but I notice my gf also uses it a lot because for whatever reason she often likes to prep while sitting down, which isn't convenient at a normal kitchen counter with cabinets below it.
I'd also lean to dishwashing / dirty sink being on the left end of that long counter; nice way to split it all up and have a dirty corner there seperate from all the prep stuff.
Some sort of storage close to the stove is certainly something to keep in mind, because otherwise you're just going to end up with all your most used stuff like salt, pepper, oil, etc sitting right on the counter next to it.
Yeah looks like at the start I mentioned what you already did; doing a study in your own movements and maximizing efficiency there is of big benefit in the long run.
I don't entirely agree with the objections on islands. It's true that you always have an easier and more difficult 'side' to the island, but that's just something you keep in mind when deciding what items to put where. And as an advantage islands don't have any of this dead corner space.
Depending on how the rest of your space is being able to walk around it can be really convenient and it simply looks more 'open' and spaceous. In my own room I really like it being an island, because it avoids me having to walk around the bloody thing all the time since I can go past it on both sides.
I second the idea to think 'beyond' the kitchen triangle. Unless all you're doing is boiling eggs, then I guess it might make sense.
Drawers are IMO king and if you can swing it essentially everything should be in a drawer. It really improves your quality of life in a kitchen a lot.
Good suggestion to also 'plan' efficient routing for cleanup, often all the efficiency maximization goes to prep and what comes after is forgotten. One thing that bothers me in my current setup is that I added my dishwasher recently, but it's essentially in the corner that used to be my 'clean' side of the sink, where I also have my water cooker and tea stuff. It's suboptimal to say the least.
If you want to look into the rotating corner cupbaord things they're usually referred to as 'lazy suzans'.
Agreed, putting dishwasher and sink far apart from eachother is no bueno, you just end up walking all over the place. Hence why I'm a fan of having a 'dirty' corner with sink + dishwasher all in 1 seperate place.
Please, do yourself a favor, and enter the 21st century. It's probably even better for the environment too at this point, and most of all, simply leaves you more time to enjoy life. If you like a clean aesthethic it really cuts down on the clutter too.I still wash dishes by hand. It’s embarrassing but it is what it is. Think it’s remnant from working as dishwasher at Woolworth in the 80s.
I would put 'having any dishwasher at all' far higher on my personal kitchen-priority list than things like '2nd sink' or 'built-in steamer / fryer'.
I second the '1 foot overhang makes a good enough overhang to work as a good bar with a stool'. Mine is about that and works well. One thing to keep in mind is that any overhang makes any cupboards below it less accessible. Personally I only have overhang on 1 end of the island, where there's no doors. You could have it on both ends, or turn things around a bit depending on where you want your cupboards and where you want your bar/overhang, but ideally they aren't in the same place or you'll hate your life anytime you try to get anything out of your cupboard.
With that in mind I'm a fan of bar / overhang, not just for 'parties' but I notice my gf also uses it a lot because for whatever reason she often likes to prep while sitting down, which isn't convenient at a normal kitchen counter with cabinets below it.
I'd also lean to dishwashing / dirty sink being on the left end of that long counter; nice way to split it all up and have a dirty corner there seperate from all the prep stuff.
Some sort of storage close to the stove is certainly something to keep in mind, because otherwise you're just going to end up with all your most used stuff like salt, pepper, oil, etc sitting right on the counter next to it.
Yeah looks like at the start I mentioned what you already did; doing a study in your own movements and maximizing efficiency there is of big benefit in the long run.
I don't entirely agree with the objections on islands. It's true that you always have an easier and more difficult 'side' to the island, but that's just something you keep in mind when deciding what items to put where. And as an advantage islands don't have any of this dead corner space.
Depending on how the rest of your space is being able to walk around it can be really convenient and it simply looks more 'open' and spaceous. In my own room I really like it being an island, because it avoids me having to walk around the bloody thing all the time since I can go past it on both sides.
I second the idea to think 'beyond' the kitchen triangle. Unless all you're doing is boiling eggs, then I guess it might make sense.
Drawers are IMO king and if you can swing it essentially everything should be in a drawer. It really improves your quality of life in a kitchen a lot.
Good suggestion to also 'plan' efficient routing for cleanup, often all the efficiency maximization goes to prep and what comes after is forgotten. One thing that bothers me in my current setup is that I added my dishwasher recently, but it's essentially in the corner that used to be my 'clean' side of the sink, where I also have my water cooker and tea stuff. It's suboptimal to say the least.
If you want to look into the rotating corner cupbaord things they're usually referred to as 'lazy suzans'.
Agreed, putting dishwasher and sink far apart from eachother is no bueno, you just end up walking all over the place. Hence why I'm a fan of having a 'dirty' corner with sink + dishwasher all in 1 seperate place.
Please, do yourself a favor, and enter the 21st century. It's probably even better for the environment too at this point, and most of all, simply leaves you more time to enjoy life. If you like a clean aesthethic it really cuts down on the clutter too.
I would put 'having any dishwasher at all' far higher on my personal kitchen-priority list than things like '2nd sink' or 'built-in steamer / fryer'.
yep. Looking at kitchen aid or even Hestan. Unsure at this point for dishwasher though
Good point and you’re right. It’s discontinued and that’s why they are throwing it in if I buy the downdraft.
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Feed the steamer oven with distilled or reverse osmosis water and you never have to descale. Just do NOT feed it tap water.
Gaggenau does not likely make any of their stuff, they are Bosch-Siemens as well as Neff ...add a software option and a different decal and a new brand is born.
Like buying a merc and thinking they all come from Stuttgart.
Don't get hung up on brand names, do research and choose what you want...a steamer is a great plus in a kitchen IME.
Gaggenau does not likely make any of their stuff, they are Bosch-Siemens as well as Neff ...add a software option and a different decal and a new brand is born.
Like buying a merc and thinking they all come from Stuttgart.
Don't get hung up on brand names, do research and choose what you want...a steamer is a great plus in a kitchen IME.
that’s it. Not gonna bother with the Gaggenau downdraft with all of your guys experience with them. It just looks cool and love the idea of a downdraft. Buying Hestan 48”vent which is made by vent a hood. The range is 36” and I love having the extra space. Cfm and capture are top for this vent. And it moves are up and outside the house altogether
Sure you’re right. But always loved the idea of Molteni, Rorgue and Gaggenau. Can’t afford the first two so the gagg seemed within reach. That said, it’s useless if I don’t use. But it does look killer nice
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they all cook with water...the difference between a Kees van der Westen espresso machine and a Cafelat Robot is nowhere near what you'd expect from a price tag difference of about 16K ;-)
Aesthetically it’s off what your kitchen inspiration photos portend but it does align with your past experience, but if you’re a big entertainer and want to get wild, you could put in a commercial high temp under counter and wash sink over by the far end of your kitchen that you’re worried may be a dead zone. You’d want a rack for dish racks in addition to the spray table and machine so it’d take 6’ or so, but you’d have a dedicated dirty area. One may argue it’s overkill for day to day but then you could put a home use machine over by your island sink and therefore have some increased flexibility/decreased distance day to day. 1 minute wash cycles and fully dry from high temp is pretty great when cleaning for large groups and for things like pots and pans that usually are hand wash or take up half the machine. I like Hobart machines in the past but I own a Moyer diesel yet to be installed.
Yes and agreed. Problem is that I like the kitchens in the pics but realizing it’s just not practical. Don’t want to do “minimal viable product” but this does look nice. Already looking at panel ready dish washer.
Also, May not do second sink since it will cost 4-6k contractor said.
Appreciate you weighing in
Geeze, get a new Contractor. That is nuts! Is the floor a concrete slab? Is that the cost-driver?
Exactly. Concrete slab and they would have to jackhammer.
It all comes down to the contractor/ subs. When our addition was nearly complete we found that the existing foundation drain line got screwed up right during the construction, and the drain in the basement stairwell could no longer drain. The concrete sub came out and demo's the stair landing, saw cut a trench across one room and into the room with the sump pump, then backfilled with gravel and poured/ finished the concrete after the plumber installed the drain line and set a new drain body. The whole thing was done in 2 days and cost less $1.5k (this was about 10 years ago). Even if that translates to $2.5k today and you have to add in the plumbing supply lines that sound very steep unless the sink and faucet are >$1.5k.
Of course LV union labor could be a factor...
Of course LV union labor could be a factor...
Unless you really want a cappuccino
Either Miele or Bosch for the DW; I just got a bosch a couple months ago and love it.
Be aware of huge backorders for appliances. My local appliance store had a 6 month backlog for Bosch. I ended up grabbing the last one (in their higher end line) from Home Depot in a 50 mile radius.
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Unless you really want a cappuccino
let me be more specific for Lars, the difference between a Kees van der Westen and a Cafelat Robot plus Bellman steamer is nowhere near what you expect from a price tag difference of 15.9K.
Holy smoke , taking a diamond blade to a concrete slab should not be THAT expensive, unless your kitchen is located in a former nuclear shelter or similar ;-)
Jovidah
I'll make you a sponsor offer you can't refuse...
I think they're prone to the same general chip shortage that's plagueing many markets... should - hopefully - start resolving itself towards the end of the year as more fab capacity comes online.
Saw a similar kind of pattern here with appliances but it's not going to last forever.
Saw a similar kind of pattern here with appliances but it's not going to last forever.
