New Kramer Auction

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In a prestige market like this, measuring value through equivalencies or performance metrics misses the economic proposition entirely. It's all about being the first to be recognized. There are many cubist painters; there's only one Picasso. There are more than a handful of people who make damascus knives; there's only one who cornered the prestige market by appearing in all of the places that those with six, seven, and eight digit incomes go to hear about what they "should" have.

Put more simply, though I suspect his heart may lay elsewhere, Bob's core market is not people who know knives; it's people who have more income than they have consumables to spend it on, and for whom having the "it" item at any price matters, because exclusivity and perceived connoisseurship carry more value than actual money.

Well said.
 
I feel this is different than art. Albeit this is only my opinion, but I feel alot of people around here who have multiple gyutos are looking for something that really suits their style and work that they have to do. Bob isn't selling art, he is selling work tools that have elevated to the level of 'art', they still have to work, and I feel if you bought it, and don't enjoy using it for work, then you can sell it and replace it all you want.

I personally would never buy a Bob Kramer, I enjoy the knives I happen to be using, but if I was on the search for a good gyuto for me and plopped down my 30k, because I can see some chef's who are really dedicated, spending that kind of money on a knife, I mean a chef will spend 30k on a car that might last 10-15 years, why can't they spend 30k on a knife that will last their work life. I feel if you are enjoying your shig, your dt or your masamoto more than your Bob, but only after you tried the Bob, what's the issue selling it? I'm sure he is totally crying everytime somebody sells a knife and drives his market price up.

I relate it to cooking for the construction workers who do work on the restaurant, they are easy to please, eat their food, don't complain and they are my kind of people, but who do I actually cook for? People I wouldn't talk to or associate with, they are the super rich, and couldn't care less about the work/care that's involved, some do, most don't. So, I feel for Bob in the fact that I would like to cook for people who can't afford the great stuff like myself, but guess what, I don't because nobody can make a living like that.

I heard somewhere Bob used to be a cook, so he is probably slightly miffed that cooks like he used to be can't even afford the tools he made for guys like him, but only for the super rich who will never even use it, damn success is complicated sometimes. That's my rant for the night, don't mean to offend anyone, just trying to relate and see both sides, but at the same time if I dropped that 30k and didn't like it, it would be gone for 35k in a heartbeat if I could make it happen.
 
I got the impression the knives that go for auction arent the same as his usual custom Damascus knives, they seem to have one off mosaic damascus patterns. Whereas the customs aren't as blingy. In Salty's case I don't even think he was able to choose the Damascus pattern for his first knife? The last Kramer I saw on ebay was an 8inch Meiji with flip flop ladder damascus, and it took a couple of auctions before it sold. And went for somewhere around 6-7k alot of coin, but not in the same ballpark as 30k.
 
In a prestige market like this, measuring value through equivalencies or performance metrics misses the economic proposition entirely. It's all about being the first to be recognized. There are many cubist painters; there's only one Picasso. There are more than a handful of people who make damascus knives; there's only one who cornered the prestige market by appearing in all of the places that those with six, seven, and eight digit incomes go to hear about what they "should" have.

Put more simply, though I suspect his heart may lay elsewhere, Bob's core market is not people who know knives; it's people who have more income than they have consumables to spend it on, and for whom having the "it" item at any price matters, because exclusivity and perceived connoisseurship carry more value than actual money.

ETA: I may have read it wrong, I think we are in agreement in your second paragraph. I'll leave my reply there is case i'm wrong.

I suspect you are wrong in your assumptions. While the core market are those that are rich and are not as knowledgeable as many here about knives, that does not mean that Bob doesn't care about the product he puts out and is not knowledgeable about what a chef desires, and especially is not passionate about his work. Let's not forget, he is a Mastersmith and there aren't a whole lot of them.

It's a shame the cynicism that is being shown here, and the human psych tendency to put another man down for his successes. I'll never reach the level of success in anything I do, that he's done, but it doesn't mean I'll deride him for his success. Finally, the most amusing part of all this commentary is the lack of responsibility displayed towards the buyer (not you heldentenor, you made it very clear). They determine the price of goods/services, maybe we should think big picture, eh?

Here's to Marko, Hoss, Pierre, Burke, and Rader for your future successes and hopefully Shun hunts you down, as well as Bon Appetit. I hope no one questions your dedication to your trade if that happens.
 
I don't think I expressed myself clearly, Jason. I was trying to say that though Bob's heart might lay elsewhere--with the craftsmanship of his products and the users (professional and enthusiastic cooks with skills) who could put them to best use--that's not where his products "fit" within an economic analysis. Their value does not stem from their use as tools for culinary work, no matter how good they might be at those tasks and no matter how much Bob might sympathize, respect, and appreciate culinary workers and enthusiasts.

I don't and won't question his motives. I was simply describing the market position of his products. Back on the old ITK forum, Bob always seemed accessible and enthusiastic about knives in general (not only his own products).
 
jeez... why so much hate for Bob. The guy is living the dream, if his knives merit or not the prices they fetch is pretty clear, someone paid for it. If any of the maker's here would start selling knives at that price tomorrow, would anyone here say: "his knives aren't worth it"; "they're ugly" and whatnot? I remember the days when Bob was just Bob and made really good knives at one tenth his current prices, and everyone wanted one. It so happens to be that now that only a few people can get their hands on one of his knives, everyone thinks his knives suck. People, get over Bob's success as a knife maker and wish him luck, last time I checked all the people making knives at some point sold for far less than the current prices.
 
Bob has been nothing but awesome every time I've dealt with him. He's at the top of the game, and he's incredibly fortunate that his skills, branding, and charisma have allowed for him to fetch the prices he does. If I could get $30000 for a piece I made, I sure as hell wouldn't be selling them at $1200.
 
No ones hating on Bob Kramer, quite the contrary. Anyone would be a fool to not capitalize on the opportunity that was given to him and good on him for seizing upon it. The aesthetics are purely personal. I personally do not find anything appealing about his knives. I can and do admire the skill it takes to make them though.

My original question at the beginning of this thread was "what made his knives so special to warrant the price of them?" Given there are 120 master bladesmiths and only his command this sort of price point. The answer, nothing. You're paying for the name. Does a $30,000 knife cut food any better than a $300? No.

You can't totally put the blame on the consumer for the price drive in auctions or secondary market. He could easily remedy how much his products go for but why should he when he doesn't have to? Nothing wrong at all with that either. I just personally don't find them appealing even if I had that kind of money to blow.
 
Actually Erilyn, the blame is entirely on the consumer. Especially in auctions and the secondary market. This is economics 101 here. Not sure what point you are trying to make there; how can he control what others will pay? As far as aesthetics, well, not everyone is going to appeal to his design. I can understand that, I find other makers knives to be more appealing aestetically as well. Functionally, his knives work awesome.
 
Actually Erilyn, the blame is entirely on the consumer. Especially in auctions and the secondary market. This is economics 101 here. Not sure what point you are trying to make there; how can he control what others will pay? As far as aesthetics, well, not everyone is going to appeal to his design. I can understand that, I find other makers knives to be more appealing aestetically as well. Functionally, his knives work awesome.

I'm looking at it from a business and marketing standpoint. He was propelled to God like status when an article was written about him 16 years ago. He found a way to capitalize on it by making his knives so hard to get that there has to be special lotteries and auctions to get one. If he really wanted to have more control over the prices, he wouldn't put them up for auction. Instead, he'd bang some out and put them up for sale on his site. Why would he though when he get $30k+ for them? Again, nothing wrong with that. It's actually a great strategy, one I've used before only on a MUCH smaller scale. Only do a handful or so a year and put a few up for auction. I'm not saying the consumer plays no roll in all this but they aren't 100% to blame either. It's called consumer manipulation.

I hope I explained that coherently. I've got 2 toddlers that are in disparate need of bed time!! :dazed:
 
I'm looking at it from a business and marketing standpoint. He was propelled to God like status when an article was written about him 16 years ago. He found a way to capitalize on it by making his knives so hard to get that there has to be special lotteries and auctions to get one. If he really wanted to have more control over the prices, he wouldn't put them up for auction. Instead, he'd bang some out and put them up for sale on his site. Why would he though when he get $30k+ for them? Again, nothing wrong with that. It's actually a great strategy, one I've used before only on a MUCH smaller scale. Only do a handful or so a year and put a few up for auction. I'm not saying the consumer plays no roll in all this but they aren't 100% to blame either. It's called consumer manipulation.

I hope I explained that coherently. I've got 2 toddlers that are in disparate need of bed time!! :dazed:

While he does control the auction aspect, and it's something I've disagreed with from the beginning, it's his way of staying relevant in the kitchen knife world. It's the same reason amazing knife makers like Burke, Rader, and DT go to knife shows. If you are not in some way marketing your wares, you will lose prevalence in the market, no matter how many years wait you have. Bob makes all his knives himself, and can knock out about 150 or so a year. He puts up a few for auction for whatever reason suits him, to stay relevant, and to get some charitable interests funded. The consumer does the rest. Now, if he were charging a $1k an inch, MAYBE we could start an a discussion. Still, i'm a big fan of capitalism comrade.
 
While he does control the auction aspect, and it's something I've disagreed with from the beginning, it's his way of staying relevant in the kitchen knife world. It's the same reason amazing knife makers like Burke, Rader, and DT go to knife shows. If you are not in some way marketing your wares, you will lose prevalence in the market, no matter how many years wait you have. Bob makes all his knives himself, and can knock out about 150 or so a year. He puts up a few for auction for whatever reason suits him, to stay relevant, and to get some charitable interests funded. The consumer does the rest. Now, if he were charging a $1k an inch, MAYBE we could start an a discussion.

I don't believe he needs to run auctions to stay relevant in the knife world. He's Bob Kramer., there are other ways to do it. Regardless, I really don't care why he does it, but you can't say you're worried about the price drive when you fuel the machine. Like I said, there are several ways to stabilize the prices, if he wanted to he could but from a business perspective it'd be foolish. You and I are just looking at this from different view points.


Still, i'm a big fan of capitalism comrade

I really hope this was not meant as the insult it comes of as
 
We will have to agree to disagree. As of the second part, I did not mean that as an insult to you. It was meant to be ironic though, to all those socialists. :groucho:

It had me shaking my head because I'm anything but lol
 
Bob Kramer seems to be a rare example of a person who is not only a master in his craft (I do not doubt his knives are excellent based on what I have read), but also managed to find his way to high end collectors and cash them heavily. Few modern painters manage to sell a painting in a good gallery for what Bob can charge for a knife via his website. That tells a lot IMO. My hat if off to Bob (even if I would never spend this money for a knife).

It's not fair to blame Bob Kramer for the price one of his knives get sold at an auction. He didn't set the price the bidders do.
 
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