New to Japanese knives here, been lurking for a little bit

[kozzman555]

Hello everyone,

I've been looking at replacing my Mercer chef's knife that I've been using for about 4 years. I've just recently had to thin the knife after fixing several chips from my fiance abusing it over the years. COUNTERTOPS ARE NOT CUTTING BOARDS BABE. I've been upgrading my kitchen knife collection piece by piece as I improve my cooking and sharpening skills. Why practice sharpening on nice knives when I can get that out of the way with cheap ones, amirite?

I feel like it's time to upgrade my chef's knife so I've been doing some digging in this forum, looking at the various "best gyuto under $300" type threads that have popped up over the years. I think I've settled on the Yoshikane SKD 210 mm Gyuto with the Nashiji finish (just find that finish more aesthetically pleasing than a tsuchime finish). I don't think I need a 240mm with the food prep that I do. I also find the fact that it uses A2 tool steel for the cutting edge to be comforting, as I have an LT Wright Gen 5 that is A2 and I love that steel. If anyone reads this and has used one, let me know how it does with horizontal cuts on onions. That Mercer is straight dog doo doo with it, just wants to wedge in there. Very frustrating, but that's probably my fault, may need to thin it some more and then redo my cutting edge bevel.

My current stock of whetstones is a Surehiro Cerax 320 grit, Naniwa Pro 800, and Rika 5000 as well as a leather strop with green polishing compound. I am planning on getting an Atoma 140 diamond plate for fixing/thinning my knives, a SG500, and maybe SG4000 as well. I want to slide towards splash and goes as I loathe having to wait to soak the stones before using them. I just find it annoying.

If anyone has advice on anything I posted or wants to chime on, please do so. I know I'm relatively new to this and want all of the information I can get. Thanks for taking the time to read my ramblings and hope to see you all in some threads on here!

 

[bkultra]

Welcome to the forum

 

[timebard]

Welcome!

Yoshikane nashiji is a great knife in terms of cutting feel and performance, great choice. Next to your Mercer it'll feel awesome on the horizontal onion swipes. My hammered Yoshi has probably got the thinnest tip of any sub-$300 knife I've tried (maybe even with a Mazaki).

 

[stringer]

Welcome aboard

 

[daveb]

Welcome. There's a "Which Knife?" questionnaire under the Kitchen Knife Forum. If you'll fill that out you'll get some recommendations that are (mostly) tailored to your requirements.

Until then the EN available from Japanese Knife Imports is a great first (and can be last) Japanese knife. Slightly rounded, laserish tip and a little more robust through the body.

 

[kozzman555]

Thank you for the warm welcome, everyone!

Dave, I've seen that form before but when I was reviewing it, it made me realize how little I actually know. My cutting skills are....lacking right now. I've mainly rock chopped but have been trying to do more push or pull cutting. It's definitely a work in progress. Anyway, my point is that I don't even know what my requirements are. I feel l like the Yoshi SKD lines up with what I want to do better, being more flat than rounded, to kind of force me away from rocking chopping and to push/pull cut.

I do appreciate the suggestion though because looking into it, I had to do some research into what Ginsanko steel was. I am familiar with AEB-L from my bushcrafting knives and knowing it's basically AEB-H is pretty awesome. As JaVa said in the thread I was reading "Almost who needs carbon steels anymore when SS and semi SS can be that good?". It's a steel name I was wholly unfamiliar with and know now is a viable option for a future knife!

timebard, thank you for the confirmation on the Yoshi! It's good to hear that. I swear you guys have so much knowledge on this board, it's going to take me a long time to even get close.

 

[Delat]

My yoshi definitely ghosts through onions - you won’t be disappointed on that front. I don’t recommend it for rock chopping though.

If you’re planning on getting shapton glass stones then hop over to MTC while they’re on sale. The SG500 and SG4000 are great stones.

 

[kozzman555]

My yoshi definitely ghosts through onions - you won’t be disappointed on that front. I don’t recommend it for rock chopping though.

If you’re planning on getting shapton glass stones then hop over to MTC while they’re on sale. The SG500 and SG4000 are great stones.

That is so refreshing to hear! I shouldn't loathe having to chop a dang onion lol. I feel like I should be excited when I get to use a knife. Definitely not the case with my Mercer rn.

And yes! I'm definitely getting those to compliment my Naniwa 800! I did make sure to bookmark the extra girthy SG500, per the numerous suggestions I saw on here. I appreciate the heads up on the sale at MTC!

 

[brule lentement]

Welcome - I've just purchased the 240mm version of the Yoshikane you've mentioned, it's awesome. You'll be chuffed with it should you go in that direction.

 

[Jovidah]

A few things that come to mind:

-Yoshi does the horizontal cuts alright - better than any knife you're used to, but it's not the 'king' of these kind of horizontal cuts. Reason is that while the tip is thin (due to the grind) the taper doesn't go far enough and the spine thickens out relatively far forward, so if you want to nitpick something like a Masamoto KS does it better. But this is basically pure nitpicking; the Yoshi will still be somewhere in the top 1/3 of knives, and you could do far worse. Definitly not an obstacle.

-Main strength of Yoshi IMO is that it combines a thin-behind the edge grind with a decent spine... giving you excellent performance on hard stuff like root vegetables (no wedging, no cracking), while retaining stiffness and some weight.

-If you want to still do some rockchopping I don't think the Yoshi is an ideal match. The tip will dig in at the lowest point of any of my gyutos. It's fine to want to try different cutting styles, but it might be easier to get something that at least keeps the option open.

-If your fiance is the kind of person who would use a knife on a countertop I'm not sure I'd let her handle a Yoshikane at all; they are somewhat on the more delicate end of the spectrum IMO. It's more of a racecar than an SUV. She already managed to break the SUV.

-Horizontal cuts are as much about technique as they are about the knife. Even mediocre knives can do them reasonably well... put the heel of the knife on the onion and basically do a sweep rotating from the wrist, ending the cut at the tip. Crap explanation but basically it works better if you don't just try to jam it straight in or saw back and forth. There has to be someone around here who can explain it better. Maybe @stringer has a 10 minute onion-ASMR in his collection.

-I don't know of any good shortcut to figure out your preferences apart from... simply buying things and trying them. And yes that almost forces you to become an overspending knife nut by default... I don't have a good solution to it. There's no real substitute that I know of for actually having different types of knives in your hand and using them for a while; it's easy to match knives to preferences, but no one else can tell you what your preferences are.
You're probably correct in that it's often not a very productive exercise to ask for recommendations when your preferences would boil down to 'more better!'. There's a few general threads referring to starter knives, gateway knives, etc floating around that bundle recommendations for 'first knives' that might be a good starting point.

-The main virtue of carbon is that it sharpens easier and faster. Useful for people who are still learning how to sharpen, and some of us prefer it for that reason even after we learned how to sharpen, but not mandatory or required - especially if you already have sharpening skills. Whether carbon, stainless, or semi-stainless, there's great choices in every category.

 

[stringer]

Maybe @stringer has a 10 minute onion-ASMR in his collection.

There's quite a few. Here's a good one

 

[Jovidah]

You do them differently than me. I guess maybe my technique sucks too...

Another thing worth mentioning; techncially speaking you don't need horizontal cuts if you do radial cuts instead of vertical cuts. Worth trying a few times if you struggle on the horizontal cuts to see if it works better for you. The end result should be similar.

 

[daveb]

My cutting skills are....lacking right now. I've mainly rock chopped but have been trying to do more push or pull cutting. It's definitely a work in progress. Anyway, my point is that I don't even know what my requirements are. I feel l like the Yoshi SKD lines up with what I want to do better, being more flat than rounded, to kind of force me away from rocking chopping and to push/pull cut.

I may be Yoshi's biggest fan and have many examples of his work. Great knives. But I don't recommend them to newcomers to "good" knives because of the thin tip, thinness behind the edge and most importantly the flatness that I favor does not always (seldom) suit the newcomers well. I don't find them to be delicate knives but I doubt they would suffer abuse, even unintentional, well. And if you're coming from a rocker world, a knife with a little belly will ease that transition. Rocking motions certainly have their place and "forcing" away from it may be extreme.

In any case, everything that's been suggested on here thus far has been solid and any will be the best knife you've ever used. Enjoy the search.

 

[Benuser]

Welcome aboard!
Just one remark: the Atoma is a fantastic tool for flattening stones. Not so much for thinning. It works more or less, but leaves deep grooves who will take a huge time to get rid of with very coarse stones. You better start directly with coarse stones. My preferred ones are the Norton Crystolon, Shapton Pro 120 and Shapton Glass 320. And decent automotive sandpaper, beginning at P120. In Europe I would suggest Robert Bosch 'Metall'.

 

[toast]

Welcome!

 

[Delat]

Had to cut an onion today so I grabbed some video of my yoshi for ya.

 

[kozzman555]

@Jovidah I am trying to get away from rock chopping because i've got that down, where I'm quick and accurate with it, without twisting the blade and chipping it. I'm still keeping my Mercer, so if I do want to do some rock chopping, I can use that instead of the Yoshikane. I'm also definitely never letting her near the Yoshi. I already told her it's off limits and am getting my own knife block for knives that she is not allowed to use.

Also, I had to look up what a radial cut was. Just yet another thing I've learned on my short time here. I'm honestly scared what will happen when I invariably dip my toes in to JNAT's lol. I love sharpening knives, it's therapeutic.

@stringer Thank you for the video! Always good seeing techniques for food processing.

@daveb I appreciate the commentary and suggestions. I've always liked just tearing off the bandaid and getting it over with, so I might as well just practice my push/pull cuts as I'm working with my food. I'm not a pro chef, just a home cook, so I can take my time processing food and concentrate on what I'm doing. I've been into knives since I was a wee lad, so I know there are ones that you can beat the unholy crap out of, like my LTW Gen 5 or Benchmade Nimravus that I used overseas, but there are others that you need to be more careful with, like my crappy Dalstrong Boning knife that I got when I was far less educated on what "good" knives where. I actually can't remember the last time I used it. I prefer using my Grandpa's old Buck fillet knife instead unless I'm carving a turkey.

@Delat thank you so much for the special vid! That Yoshi is flying through the onion, I love it. Speaking of, how do you like the kiritsuke shape? I honestly have always loved aesthetics of a sheepsfoot/wharncliffe style knife, like my ZT 0808 but thought I should get the gyuto instead due to the "kiritsuke's are harder to use/control than gyuto/executive chef knife ninja master only" stuff that I read.

I do have one final question for everyone though. What do you guys think about Moritaka knives and Burrfection?

JK JK! Just stirring the pot a little bit lmao

 

[Delat]

@Jovidah I am trying to get away from rock chopping because i've got that down, where I'm quick and accurate with it, without twisting the blade and chipping it. I'm still keeping my Mercer, so if I do want to do some rock chopping, I can use that instead of the Yoshikane. I'm also definitely never letting her near the Yoshi. I already told her it's off limits and am getting my own knife block for knives that she is not allowed to use.

Also, I had to look up what a radial cut was. Just yet another thing I've learned on my short time here. I'm honestly scared what will happen when I invariably dip my toes in to JNAT's lol. I love sharpening knives, it's therapeutic.

@stringer Thank you for the video! Always good seeing techniques for food processing.

@daveb I appreciate the commentary and suggestions. I've always liked just tearing off the bandaid and getting it over with, so I might as well just practice my push/pull cuts as I'm working with my food. I'm not a pro chef, just a home cook, so I can take my time processing food and concentrate on what I'm doing. I've been into knives since I was a wee lad, so I know there are ones that you can beat the unholy crap out of, like my LTW Gen 5 or Benchmade Nimravus that I used overseas, but there are others that you need to be more careful with, like my crappy Dalstrong Boning knife that I got when I was far less educated on what "good" knives where. I actually can't remember the last time I used it. I prefer using my Grandpa's old Buck fillet knife instead unless I'm carving a turkey.

@Delat thank you so much for the special vid! That Yoshi is flying through the onion, I love it. Speaking of, how do you like the kiritsuke shape? I honestly have always loved aesthetics of a sheepsfoot/wharncliffe style knife, like my ZT 0808 but thought I should get the gyuto instead due to the "kiritsuke's are harder to use/control than gyuto/executive chef knife ninja master only" stuff that I read.

I do have one final question for everyone though. What do you guys think about Moritaka knives and Burrfection?

JK JK! Just stirring the pot a little bit lmao

Honestly I just got the k-tip because I think they look cool. In practical terms the tip is thinner for delicate work, but also fragile because it’s so exposed. In fact I managed to bend the tip twice - once by accidentally bumping it into the side of the sink while washing, and a second time when I dropped the knife. It’s pretty much common wisdom that k-tips will get damaged, so I expected it.

In actual use I don’t notice much difference vs a regular gyuto until you down to 180mm knives then a bunka has more height than a gyuto for the guiding knuckle, but so would a santoku.

 

[kozzman555]

That's actually really good to know. I don't abuse knives that aren't meant to be abused, but I'm also not the most careful of guys and could totally see myself doing the same thing you did. I know I would be super upset if I damaged a nice k-tip, so I'll probably skip that for now.

 

[Jovidah]

@Jovidah I am trying to get away from rock chopping because i've got that down, where I'm quick and accurate with it, without twisting the blade and chipping it. I'm still keeping my Mercer, so if I do want to do some rock chopping, I can use that instead of the Yoshikane. I'm also definitely never letting her near the Yoshi. I already told her it's off limits and am getting my own knife block for knives that she is not allowed to use.

Also, I had to look up what a radial cut was. Just yet another thing I've learned on my short time here. I'm honestly scared what will happen when I invariably dip my toes in to JNAT's lol. I love sharpening knives, it's therapeutic.

@stringer Thank you for the video! Always good seeing techniques for food processing.

@daveb I appreciate the commentary and suggestions. I've always liked just tearing off the bandaid and getting it over with, so I might as well just practice my push/pull cuts as I'm working with my food. I'm not a pro chef, just a home cook, so I can take my time processing food and concentrate on what I'm doing. I've been into knives since I was a wee lad, so I know there are ones that you can beat the unholy crap out of, like my LTW Gen 5 or Benchmade Nimravus that I used overseas, but there are others that you need to be more careful with, like my crappy Dalstrong Boning knife that I got when I was far less educated on what "good" knives where. I actually can't remember the last time I used it. I prefer using my Grandpa's old Buck fillet knife instead unless I'm carving a turkey.

@Delat thank you so much for the special vid! That Yoshi is flying through the onion, I love it. Speaking of, how do you like the kiritsuke shape? I honestly have always loved aesthetics of a sheepsfoot/wharncliffe style knife, like my ZT 0808 but thought I should get the gyuto instead due to the "kiritsuke's are harder to use/control than gyuto/executive chef knife ninja master only" stuff that I read.

I do have one final question for everyone though. What do you guys think about Moritaka knives and Burrfection?

JK JK! Just stirring the pot a little bit lmao

Part of what I failed to mention in my remarks is that... there's nothing wrong with rockchopping. If it works for you that's totally fine. Some knives are more suitable to cutting in certain ways, but if you like rockchopping and you're good at it there's nothing wrong with that. In the end as a home user I would say 'experiment, but settle for what works best and most efficient'. Getting stuff cut faster and cleanly is IMO more important than academical bla bla about how you are 'supposed' to cut; it's the results that matter!

Don't stare yourself blind on thinking you need to abandon rockchopping and switch to pushcutting. There's a lot on offer between a Yoshikane and a Mercer... that will still allow you to experiment with all techniques without shutting the door on anything.

 

[kozzman555]

Part of what I failed to mention in my remarks is that... there's nothing wrong with rockchopping. If it works for you that's totally fine. Some knives are more suitable to cutting in certain ways, but if you like rockchopping and you're good at it there's nothing wrong with that. In the end as a home user I would say 'experiment, but settle for what works best and most efficient'. Getting stuff cut faster and cleanly is IMO more important than academical bla bla about how you are 'supposed' to cut; it's the results that matter!

Don't stare yourself blind on thinking you need to abandon rockchopping and switch to pushcutting. There's a lot on offer between a Yoshikane and a Mercer... that will still allow you to experiment with all techniques without shutting the door on anything.

@Jovidah remind me to buy you a beer the next time I'm in the Netherlands. You've been a huge help to me. I still plan on doing some rockchopping for small things like garlic or whatever, but I feel like I have to learn push/pull cutting due to some of the veggies I prep. Their size doesn't lend itself well to rockchopping. And I figure if I am going to learn how to do something, I might as well learn to do it well.

And you are correct, there is a lot on offer between a Yoshikane and a Mercer, but I like having nice knives. That's honestly it, really. Whether it was a combat knife on my body armor overseas, a bushcrafting knive, pocket knife, or a kitchen knife I like having good knives. I learned early on in my childhood that cheap knives are unreliable from breaking two K-BAR knives....stupid rat tail tangs....

 

[Jovidah]

@Jovidah remind me to buy you a beer the next time I'm in the Netherlands. You've been a huge help to me. I still plan on doing some rockchopping for small things like garlic or whatever, but I feel like I have to learn push/pull cutting due to some of the veggies I prep. Their size doesn't lend itself well to rockchopping. And I figure if I am going to learn how to do something, I might as well learn to do it well.

And you are correct, there is a lot on offer between a Yoshikane and a Mercer, but I like having nice knives. That's honestly it, really. Whether it was a combat knife on my body armor overseas, a bushcrafting knive, pocket knife, or a kitchen knife I like having good knives. I learned early on in my childhood that cheap knives are unreliable from breaking two K-BAR knives....stupid rat tail tangs....

First up... in the end I'm just a home-user who's trying to pass along as much as I can of what I soaked up from people more knowledgeable than me.... but in the end treat what I say as 'just another datapoint from a guy on the internet' - not gospel.

It sounds like you might simply have a length issue. It reminds me of a good video made a long time ago by one of the OG's here:

If larger stuff is the reason you're considering different technique you may also consider a larger knife.

And don't get me wrong, when I'm saying 'there's a lot in between' I don't necessarily mean 'cheap stuff' or 'just settle for a Wüsthof'... A lot of the knives we talk about here are all great and high quality, just different in their own ways, and some knives might suit certain preferences better than other. Two people might have completely contradictory opinions about what is their 'best knife' even when they own the exact same ones; in the end there isn't so much a 'best knife'... at best you can hope to find a 'best knife for my particular preferences'. Good luck chasing that rabbit though!

Don't get me wrong, the Yoshi is a great knife, and I like mine. But it's not the only great knife. Part of the reason so many of us end up wasting too much time and money on this hobby is that there's too many of them.