New to the Game

[Karl Dial]

1) Is this a good plan for periodic sharpening?
Arashiyama 1000 -> Chosera Pro 3000 -> Shapton 8000 -> CKTG Bovine Strop with green compound
Looking at purchasing the Arashiyama and Chosera (this is the new version without the wooden base). Bought the Shapton several weeks back. It is like glass.

2) How about right out of the box? Do you first test it out or do you automatically touch it with say the Shapton 8000?

3) How often do you sharpen/strop? How often do you strop only?

Any advice for a newbie would be greatly appreciated?

 

[Nemo]

What are you sharpening?

For a gyuto, my sharpening regimen goes something like:

1) When the edge loses a little bite, I might try stopping on hard felt or balsa loaded with 1 or 3 micron diamond. I've never had much luck stropping on flexible media such as leather. You could try using VERY light (no more than the weight of the knife) pressure on a dry very fine (6-10k) stone instead. I sometimes do this edge leading but you will need good angle control for this.

2) When this no longer refreshes the edge in a couple of strokes (or when the resulting edge deteriorates quickly), I touch up on a fine stone (I use Chosera 3k, which is a JIS 4k is equivalent).

3) When this no longer creates a burr within a few strokes (or when the resulting edge deteriorates quickly), I move to medium stone. I take the opportunity to do a bit of maintenance thinning.

4) I go to a coarse stone if the knife is chipped or is getting thick behind the edge. I guess also if the 1k stone didn't create an edge in short order but that doesn't happen often.

You don't need a 6 or 8k stone to make knife sharp. One problem with them is that you will need more strokes to achieve an edge which introduces more opportunities for error (thus mucking the edge up). If you are using a 1k stone, don't move to a finer stone until the knife is sharp. A 1k edge would be perfectly functional in the kitchen. If your knife isn't sharp after 1k, you won't make it sharp on a finer stone.

Most of the work of sharpening is done on the coarsest stone you will use. Subsequent stones are just to poslish the edge with very light pressure and to deburr.

For Western Stainless knives, I sharpen on a coarse stone (I use Chosera 400, which is around JIS 600), then deburr on a medium stone. The steel on these knives is coarse grained and won't take a fine polish.

 

[Karl Dial]

Thanks!
Currently I own a petty, santoku and nakiri. Looking at several 240mm gyutos but most are sold out.

 

[Nemo]

Thanks!
Currently I own a petty, santoku and nakiri. Looking at several 240mm gyutos but most are sold out.

Same sharpening progression for these.

More important than the profile is the steel and the maker.

The only knives that I would take to 6, 8 or even 12k would be those for slicing delicate protein such as thin slices of sashimi. And then you are probably talking a simple carbon steel yanagiba (which is a somewhat different sharpening technique).

 

[MowgFace]

What are you sharpening?

For a gyuto, my sharpening regimen goes something like:

1) When the edge loses a little bite, I might try stopping on hard felt or balsa loaded with 1 or 3 micron diamond. I've never had much luck stropping on flexible media such as leather. You could try using VERY light (no more than the weight of the knife) pressure on a dry very fine (6-10k) stone instead. I sometimes do this edge leading but you will need good angle control for this.

2) When this no longer refreshes the edge in a couple of strokes (or when the resulting edge deteriorates quickly), I touch up on a fine stone (I use Chosera 3k, which is a JIS 4k is equivalent).

3) When this no longer creates a burr within a few strokes (or when the resulting edge deteriorates quickly), I move to medium stone. I take the opportunity to do a bit of maintenance thinning.

4) I go to a coarse stone if the knife is chipped or is getting thick behind the edge. I guess also if the 1k stone didn't create an edge in short order but that doesn't happen often.

You don't need a 6 or 8k stone to make knife sharp. One problem with them is that you will need more strokes to achieve an edge which introduces more opportunities for error (thus mucking the edge up). If you are using a 1k stone, don't move to a finer stone until the knife is sharp. A 1k edge would be perfectly functional in the kitchen. If your knife isn't sharp after 1k, you won't make it sharp on a finer stone.

Most of the work of sharpening is done on the coarsest stone you will use. Subsequent stones are just to poslish the edge with very light pressure and to deburr.

For Western Stainless knives, I sharpen on a coarse stone (I use Chosera 400, which is around JIS 600), then deburr on a medium stone. The steel on these knives is coarse grained and won't take a fine polish.

My process is basically identical to Nemo's. Though, I dont mess with strops and sprays, so my step "1" would be Nemo's step 2.

Regarding using the OOtB edge, i ususally use the OOtB edge for a week or so to understand what type of edge comes from a given maker and also so i can judge the "Not-Fresh-Edge" cutting feel right out of the box. I almost always hit my medium grit stone (Gesshin 2K) then finisher (3-5K) for first time sharpenings.

 

[Karl Dial]

So it sounds like I basically wasted $60 on my Shap8000. I am looking at a 1000 and 3000. Do you guys recommend Arashiyama or Cerax as my 1000 and Chosera as my 3000?

 

[tostadas]

Thanks!
Currently I own a petty, santoku and nakiri. Looking at several 240mm gyutos but most are sold out.

Which particular gyutos are you looking for? There are quite a few retailers, possibly some have what you're looking for in stock.

 

[MowgFace]

So it sounds like I basically wasted $60 on my Shap8000. I am looking at a 1000 and 3000. Do you guys recommend Arashiyama or Cerax as my 1000 and Chosera as my 3000?

It really depends on what you are trying to accomplish. 8K edges IMO are best suited for cutting raw fish. SInce i personally dont do all that much sushi/sashimi presentations, 8K would be a waste for me.

I also do not care about mirror polishes, so again 8K is superfluous.

For a long time 1000 & 5-6000 has become the go-to "recommendation" for people starting out. Its where i started out, and served me very well. I have since found different preferences and now follow those but wouldn't be upset if i had to go back to the 2 stone combo. (With the exception of thinning. Only a masochist would ever actually try to thin with a 1K, except out of necessity)

 

[MowgFace]

So it sounds like I basically wasted $60 on my Shap8000. I am looking at a 1000 and 3000. Do you guys recommend Arashiyama or Cerax as my 1000 and Chosera as my 3000?

Regarding your stones, I have not used your choices for medium grit stones, but pretty much only hear good things about the Chosera/NP 3K. I liked it when i tried it, but went a different direction.

 

[Karl Dial]

Looking at a Masamoto KS and Sukenari HAP40 from Burrfection, a Kato SG2 from CKTG, a Saji B2 from Sugi Cutlery and a Makoto Kurosaki AS from Carbon Knife. All sold out. Patience is important in this hobby.

 

[Nemo]

Lots of knives are out of stock since covid broke the world.

These seem to be in Stock at KnS. KnS is a reputable vendor who happens to be a forum sponsor. Great range of handle upgrades if you ask, as well. I especially love the new heart shaped handles with the tapered ferrule.

https://www.knivesandstones.com.au/...s-gyuto-240-mm-ks3124-with-saya-black-ferrule
https://www.knivesandstones.com.au/...yoshimi-kato-kintaro-sg2-r2-k-tip-gyuto-240mm
When comparing prices, note that the Aussie micro dollar is only worth 70ish US cents and overseas buyers don't need to pay GST (VAT).

Their US site even seems to have a KS special with an ebony handle:
https://knivesandstones.us/collecti...o-sohonten-ks-gyuto-240-mm-ks3124-k-s-special

 

[Karl Dial]

Excellent service at K&S. I purchased a Yu santoku with the blond ebony handle upgrade from them recently. Sweet knife! Yu Kurosaki has the best hammer patterns today.
Also, they have in stock a Shigeki Tanaka Ginsan gyuto that I will purchase very soon.

 

[daveb]

Re: Different grit finishes. My story would largely mimic Nemo's. I works for me in a limited pro environment and at home. But. There is some group think in play here as well. This forum largely sharpens to lower grits for user knives than others do. 3 - 4K, maybe 6K for gyuto. And while some will strop on leather/balsa/etc, more probably do not. In another forum / sub reddit (you mentioned a Togo strop) there may be a group think that goes for much higher grit stones, gizmos, and loaded strops. And neither is necessarily wrong. (Though it's worth noting only one sells gizmos and loaded strops....) As you develop proficiency you'll have your own likes and dislikes. You didn't waste money on the SG8000, but you may not use it every day either.

Re knives. One of my favorite 240s on the less expensive part of the spectrum is the EN from JKI. Laserish tip, more robust body, a little curve in profile. Would be tough to beat for the 200 and change. And it shows in stock.

https://www.japaneseknifeimports.com/collections/en/products/en-240mm-ginsanko-wa-gyuto

 

[Karl Dial]

Thanks for all the advice!

 

[HumbleHomeCook]

1) Is this a good plan for periodic sharpening?
Arashiyama 1000 -> Chosera Pro 3000 -> Shapton 8000 -> CKTG Bovine Strop with green compound
Looking at purchasing the Arashiyama and Chosera (this is the new version without the wooden base). Bought the Shapton several weeks back. It is like glass.

2) How about right out of the box? Do you first test it out or do you automatically touch it with say the Shapton 8000?

3) How often do you sharpen/strop? How often do you strop only?

Any advice for a newbie would be greatly appreciated?

You've gotten good input.

For me, the question would now be, why did you think these stones would be the right ones? Just trying to understanding what you were/are thinking and hoping to accomplish.

I'm biased to Shapton Glass stones and biased against Burrfection.

 

[Nemo]

FWIW, I used to use an 8k as my fine stone but I found that often touch ups took too long and I didn't really find that the edge was any better than the 3k Chosera edge in my use.

 

[Karl Dial]

You've gotten good input.

For me, the question would now be, why did you think these stones would be the right ones? Just trying to understanding what you were/are thinking and hoping to accomplish.

I'm biased to Shapton Glass stones and biased against Burrfection.

Ryky of Burrfection swears by the Cerax 1000, Chosera 3000 and Shapton 8000. Maybe I put too much confidence into one “expert.”

 

[tostadas]

Ryky of Burrfection swears by the Cerax 1000, Chosera 3000 and Shapton 8000. Maybe I put too much confidence into one “expert.”

Best is to just ignore everything he says. Hes like the used car salesman of knives.

 

[Nemo]

I havent watched that much of Ryki but from what I have seen, he puts me more in mind of an entertainer than an expert.

If you want expert sharpening advice in video format, try the JKI sharpening series or even the knifeplanet.net sharpening school.

 

[HumbleHomeCook]

Ryky of Burrfection swears by the Cerax 1000, Chosera 3000 and Shapton 8000. Maybe I put too much confidence into one “expert.”

He may be an "expert" in sales but that's about as much as I'd acknowledge.

My advice is to just say no.

 

[Delat]

Shaptons are on sale at MTC, so you might take a look at the SG4000. And maybe the SG500 for resetting bevels and minor repairs. And either the SG1000 or SG2000 (or the pro versions of either) for something in between.

 

[HumbleHomeCook]

Shaptons are on sale at MTC, so you might take a look at the SG4000. And maybe the SG500 for resetting bevels and minor repairs. And either the SG1000 or SG2000 (or the pro versions of either) for something in between.

My first waterstone was a SG2000 and I don't regret that decision for a second.

 

[HumbleHomeCook]

Also, forgive me, welcome Karl. You've come to the right place for great advice and info.

A lot of people like Burrfection and he surely has a strong internet presence but many of us believe there are much better resources.

You can find a ton of info here.

 

[Pie]

Those who have posted before me speak irrefutable truths. That being said, I will speak from a beginner’s perspective.

Re: stones, maybe I go a little bit of a different path - I would recommend picking up something fairly coarse and a mid grit stone. The coarse stone I have found to be critical in the learning process, as results are almost instant, good or bad. As mentioned, the longer you wobble around on a stone, the more chances you have to bung something up. NP400 is my drug of choice, and my most used synthetic. You can achieve monstrously toothy keen edges with this stone alone, even as a novice (me). Cuts skin and flesh amazing. The general consensus in that range is shapton glass 500 tho.

I’d honestly skip the NP3k, I was unable to do anything with it the first 6 months or so I had it. It’s a great stone no doubt, but pricey vs other options and at our skill level, hard to justify the cost. I don’t have much in the way of mid grit stones, but NP1k is versatile and follows the 400 up nicely. Some seem to like NP800 quite a bit, but then redundancy may set in.

Also, I wouldn’t call your shapton 8k a waste of money, but may end up being used less often. I only use 5k and 12k exclusively for polishing, but I’d hate to not have them.

 

[daveb]

I had long term loaned a SG500 xthick, SP1000 and SP2000 to a friend. Didn't expect to see them again and am ok with that. Ordered all three from MTC this week. The next day friend returned all stones. I'm going to build a rock garden.....

 

[ModRQC]

Special added vouch towards SG500-SP1K-SP2k.

Although nowadays it'd be more Cerax 1K - Ouka - and then Morihei 4K for good SS and Semi-SS or Kitayama 8K for Carbons.

Then yes SG500 obviously when things are not so ideal, but SG500 - Ouka is so easily doable I wouldn't get to use Cerax 1K. Which is sort of a somewhat softer cross between SG500 and SP1K with understated polishing skills.

Edit: ... with a feeling just between SG500 and Ouka while easily being as fast as SP1K, hence why I want to use it.

 

[HumbleHomeCook]

@Karl Dial below is a link to a thread containing dozens of vendors for both knives and sharpening gear:

https://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/threads/who-do-you-buy-from.52523/
Great resource!

 

[mpier]

IMO I would go with the NP800 since it really is more of 1000 or higher any how, and the NP3000 the two pair up nicely together and it’s all you’ll need for a long, long time

 

[Greenbriel]

Shaptons are on sale at MTC, so you might take a look at the SG4000. And maybe the SG500 for resetting bevels and minor repairs. And either the SG1000 or SG2000 (or the pro versions of either) for something in between.

I went to MTC yesterday and now have six SGs (and JKI diamond 1K + 6K arriving Monday). Very likely redundant, but I got a couple of the SGs earlier in the week and was so impressed that I figured I should take advantage of the great sale. I sharpened a couple of my neighbor's knives today and it's SO much faster to get very sharp with these versus my previous stuff. They also look cool as hell.

 

[daveb]

It wouldn't do for me to live near any of the knife shops...