Newbie needs some direction on sharpening

[NJDan]

Hi all. First post here. I have been trying to educate myself on knives by reading some of the info here and I need a little advice. I own a deli/catering business and we rent knives on a monthly basis. When the chef knives need sharpening I use a steel. I also have an electric sharpening stone. You are supposed to sharpen on stone 1 first and then finish with stone 2. Stone 2 broke in short order so I will sometimes use stone 1 and then finish with the steel. This works just OK and the knives are never nearly as sharp as when a new set arrives the next month. I've attached photos of the knives in question. I'm sure they're nothing special. They are used for cleaning a case of chicken breast in the morning, then some veggie prep and at lunchtime cutting of the grilled chicken into cubes for salads. I use those plastic cutting boards.

So in an ideal world I would like to be able to keep the knives as sharp as the day the new set arrives, but at the same time I don't want to give myself another time consuming daily task of sharpening four chef knives. Of course I was thinking of some kind of machine that could do the job and not break like cheap junk. Then, I see these sharpening stones and I have to assume those are superior to the sharpening machines but I don't really know.

Should I be able to keep the knives as sharp as new, or do I have to accept a lower sharpness because I can't quite do it as well as the guys supplying the knives? I would be open to getting new knives along with a means to sharpen them. I assume that a better quality knife will stay sharp longer than a cheaper one.

Hopefully that's enough info to give an idea of what I need help with. Any comments are appreciated!

 

[Rangen]

You are in luck, on multiple fronts.

If you learn to sharpen, you can make knives sharper than almost all knives come when new.

If you get better knives than those, the edge will last a lot longer.

 

[KOA]

In a business setting, with this quality of knife, I’d consider just swapping them out when they are dull. If that is cost prohibitive then perhaps an electic or pull through sharpener with angle guides is the best bridge until the next batch of knives arrive. They will take off alot of metal so take that into consideration if the rental company looks at this.

 

[HumbleHomeCook]

So in my view, what you've got there is soft steel that I'd bet is sharpened like an axe and is thick behind the edge. Whoever you rent them from probably does a thirty second belt sanding job that leaves a lot of burr behind. And pull-through sharpeners just tear and shred the edge so it will only feel sharp for a brief period before the jagged, weak edge collapses.

I don't work in a pro environment and I get a need to have knives you don't have to baby but there are better balances. This seems to me like prime Fibrox knives combined with a Norton India combo stone.

@stringer, @M1k3, @daveb (chefs) are much more qualified to help here.

 

[M1k3]

I'd recommend learning to sharpen and getting some better quality knives. Once you know how to sharpen, touching up the knife is easy and quick.

 

[Jeff]

Hi all. First post here. I have been trying to educate myself on knives by reading some of the info here and I need a little advice. I own a deli/catering business and we rent knives on a monthly basis. When the chef knives need sharpening I use a steel. I also have an electric sharpening stone. You are supposed to sharpen on stone 1 first and then finish with stone 2. Stone 2 broke in short order so I will sometimes use stone 1 and then finish with the steel. This works just OK and the knives are never nearly as sharp as when a new set arrives the next month. I've attached photos of the knives in question. I'm sure they're nothing special. They are used for cleaning a case of chicken breast in the morning, then some veggie prep and at lunchtime cutting of the grilled chicken into cubes for salads. I use those plastic cutting boards.

So in an ideal world I would like to be able to keep the knives as sharp as the day the new set arrives, but at the same time I don't want to give myself another time consuming daily task of sharpening four chef knives. Of course I was thinking of some kind of machine that could do the job and not break like cheap junk. Then, I see these sharpening stones and I have to assume those are superior to the sharpening machines but I don't really know.

Should I be able to keep the knives as sharp as new, or do I have to accept a lower sharpness because I can't quite do it as well as the guys supplying the knives? I would be open to getting new knives along with a means to sharpen them. I assume that a better quality knife will stay sharp longer than a cheaper one.

Hopefully that's enough info to give an idea of what I need help with. Any comments are appreciated!View attachment 206042View attachment 206043

If they let you sharpen their knives you might consider a Tormek T-1 sharpener.

They are pretty good for commercial settings, and your staff can use it as needed. set angles and pull through. pretty quick and idiot proof for a kitchen setting using “basic” commercial knives.

Yes, there is a front end investment (about $350) but it might then make sense for your company to buy a few knives too.

 

[coxhaus]

You will want to look at a Worksharp Ken onion knife sharpener if you are looking at Tormek. There are tons of YouTube videos on the Worksharp.

 

[mengwong]

I’m super curious about this as a business case study.

The rental service sets a baseline cost; this article ballparks 15 knives at $180 a month. OP’s needs look like a quarter of that, so maybe the knife service runs at $500 a year?

This is the market that Chef’s Choice goes after with the 2100 model ($600) or the 120 ($150). The Ken Onion Work Sharp is priced in that range too ($160–$200).

Four Victorinox Fibrox would set you back $180.

If my assumptions are right, product/capex is set to beat service/opex here: owning pays for itself in a year or two. Four at most if you’re only swapping knives once a month.

But it all depends on workforce education and change management, i.e. who’s going to read the manual on the sharpener and be “the knife guy/gal/geek”. That’s usually the hard part.

Looking forward to hearing from the actual cafe owners.

 

[coxhaus]

I’m super curious about this as a business case study.

The rental service sets a baseline cost; this article suggests a ballpark of $180 a month for a stable of 15 knives. OP’s needs look like a quarter of that, so maybe the knife service runs at $500 a year?

This is the market that Chef’s Choice goes after with the 2100 model ($600) or the 120 ($150). The Ken Onion Work Sharp is priced in that range too ($160–$200).

Four Victorinox Fibrox would set you back $180.

If my assumptions are right, product/capex is set to beat service/opex here, but it all depends on workforce education and change management, i.e. who’s going to read the manual on the sharpener and be “the knife guy/gal/geek”. That’s usually the hard part.

Looking forward to hearing from the actual cafe owners.

The Chef's Choice would be set at 20 degrees. The Worksharp would be variable and I think my German knives cut a lot better at 15 degrees. And if you want you can buy leather strops for the Worksharp which would not be possible for the Chef's Choice.

 

[mengwong]

Good point, I prefer 15 too. Looks like they came out with the 15XV ($160) in response to exactly this feedback from chefs. I don’t know if whoever is cubing the chicken will notice the difference, but I like to think that if it makes their job just that little bit easier, it’s worth it.

 

[coxhaus]

I think the Worksharp is more flexible as you can change belt grits and angles. I don't know anybody with a Chef's Choice 15xv, but I guess time will tell.

My other thought is you will wear out knives faster on fixed diamond stones.

I think the 15 degrees will work much better cutting tomatoes. I grow vine ripen tomatoes in my garden by the hundreds, so I cut lots of tomatoes every year.

 

[mengwong]

I don't want to give myself another time consuming daily task of sharpening four chef knives

It’s worth keeping in mind that experts like @stringer are the exception to the rule… most cafe operators just want to get it over with, which is why the Chef’s Choice marketing copy highlights that you can do touch ups in 10 seconds per knife. They don’t want to rub stones the way most people on this forum do. So, literally, different strokes for different folks!

 

[coxhaus]

Ok, the Worksharp might take a minute instead of 10 seconds. Stones maybe 30 minutes which is too long.

You must really pull it fast for 10 seconds. I am thinking 10-inch chef knife.

The Worksharp is still the better option in my mind.

 

[blokey]

What kind of stone sharpening take 30 mins? Most soft stainless just few minutes to get a burr on both side then deburr on a shapton 1000. Even magnacut don't take that long.

 

[coxhaus]

You have to set it up for stone sharpening. If you could do in a couple minutes, then everybody would be doing it.

 

[blokey]

Splash and go stone take like 30 seconds to set up, and really everyone can do it.

 

[Delat]

You have to set it up for stone sharpening. If you could do in a couple minutes, then everybody would be doing it.

Not sure what you mean by “set it up for stone sharpening.” I drop my stone in the holder, spritz it with water, and I’m ready to go in about 10 seconds.

I only sharpened a wusthof CrMoV once on stones, and it was shockingly fast compared to my higher HRC knives.

Still, for OP I’d probably just recommend using a pull-through electric chef’s choice like the ones linked above. It’s smaller, more compact, easier to learn, and easier to store than a worksharp. I don’t doubt you get better results on your worksharp, though.

 

[Jeff]

Instill think the Tormek T-1 is the tool for your kitchen.

It takes zero effort from you and zero time from you. It just sits in the kitchen and your staff use it when they need it. Once you set the initial angle when you set it up nobody ever has to adjust it again … Your staff just pull their knives through it when they feel the blades dulling.

You have too many other things to do - let your cooks decide when their knives need sharpened, and let them do it themselves.

 

[NJDan]

Wow, thanks for the quick replies!

Let me say upfront I am assuming there are two camps - one that is fine with machines and another, maybe purists, who prefer sharpening by hand with stones. I could be wrong. I have to think sharpening by hand might give a superior result but the trade off is time and the learning curve to do it right. Whichever way I go I think I will invest in stones and learn to do it by hand... just in case and for my own edification.

It looks like the Tormak might be the ticket. I like the idea that it is a stationary and heavy appliance, rather than the hand held Worksharp. I'm also left handed but I have to believe the Worksharp can be used by lefties? Also, I'm not a fan of Chef's Choice products. My restaurant supply sells their products and my impression is that they are on the cheap end. I think my current sharpener is that brand... the one that broke quickly. I'll have to look again at the name on the sharpener.

Can someone explain the difference between the T1 and the T2? It wasn't clear to me other than maybe they won't warrantee the T1 in a commercial kitchen. Or, by "professional" are they talking about using it for a knife sharpening business, not a deli? I think the $350 is easily justifiable. The much higher price for the T2 is a stretch for what I need, but I would like to understand better if I need it or not. Also, is this something that can be used more than once a day or will it take off too much metal?

Last, unrelated, question. How do you know when a steel is worn out? I have a couple of them and one is kind of football shaped (profile). One side is smoother than the other and I'm thinking I need a new one. Is using a steel still recommended periodically during the day after using the T1 or will that mess up the edge?

Edit: Tormak has a beautifully done, very slick video showing prep cooks working in the kitchen. All is fine until the last few seconds when the guy cleans his knife in his apron. That's considered no bueno. If your knife is dirty you clean it with a bar mop rag. The apron is for keeping a separation between your street clothes and the food, not for cleaning utensils! lol

 

[NJDan]

I’m super curious about this as a business case study.

The rental service sets a baseline cost; this article ballparks 15 knives at $180 a month. OP’s needs look like a quarter of that, so maybe the knife service runs at $500 a year?

Actually, my knife company only charges $8.00 per visit. That gets me 4 chef's knives and 2 paring knives. (Can the T1 sharpen a small paring knife?) We used to use them every two weeks but the knives weren't always that great and so we went with monthly instead. Sometimes the knives came in convex near the heel. You could put the knife on the cutting board and see a gap near the heel, which is a problem. They would come out and replace them, though.

There's not much of an ROI by getting rid of the knife service at $72/year, although eventually there would be some payback. It would be about quality.

This is the market that Chef’s Choice goes after with the 2100 model ($600) or the 120 ($150). The Ken Onion Work Sharp is priced in that range too ($160–$200).

Four Victorinox Fibrox would set you back $180.

You are the second one to recommend these knives. How do they compare to what we are using now, or is it hard to tell? I believe my knife company makes their own knives.

If my assumptions are right, product/capex is set to beat service/opex here: owning pays for itself in a year or two. Four at most if you’re only swapping knives once a month.

But it all depends on workforce education and change management, i.e. who’s going to read the manual on the sharpener and be “the knife guy/gal/geek”. That’s usually the hard part.

Looking forward to hearing from the actual cafe owners.

The Tormek seems like a reasonable solution. However, I also have two serrated knives that the Tormek doesn't do. OTOH, I've already sharpened away the serrations on those knives and they still work fine for cutting subs and rolls. They only stay sharp for a very short time, though.

 

[coxhaus]

The Worksharp is not used handheld. It sits on a table and you can use it either right or left hand. I think it would be the same size as a T-1 just cheaper cost and more flexible as you can vary angles and belts.

Worksharp makes kitchen model knife sharpeners like the T-1 I just use them as I think the Ken Onion is the best option.

 

[mengwong]

You are the second one to recommend these knives. How do they compare to what we are using now, or is it hard to tell? I believe my knife company makes their own knives.

Looking at the Nella web site the Victorinox ($45) will be about three times the price of the Nella ($16), but the quality should match the price – you get what you pay for. A lot of reviewers say it’s the cheapest acceptable knife for commercial use, at least by people who care about these things at all. (There are a couple of funky exceptions e.g. Kiwi). I had my Victorinox for five years and was very happy with it … just gave it away last month to a friend whose main knife snapped in half during sharpening, and will probably get another just to have around for those kinds of situations.

You’ll see much more expensive knives ($100 and up) on that web page but depending on your circumstances you might not want to splurge on anything that could grow legs. Many pro chefs bring their $300+ knives home with them every day in a knife roll.

Reading the specs it looks like the Fibrox comes from the factory at 15 degrees. So if you do get that, and you want to go with a Chef’s Choice, pick the 15XV or model 1520. Or set the Work Sharp or Tormek to 15.

With that setup you should be able to run against the third wheel once a day/week to strop, against the second wheel once a week/month to touch up, and against the first wheel once a quarter/year, or whenever you whack a bone or crunch up against garlic peel, and you see a visible ding in the edge. Whether you end up running your knives through wheel 3 every day or every Sunday really depends on how sensitive you are to dulling. It sounds like you’d prefer more to less often.

Reviews & price guidance at
https://www.nytimes.com/wirecutter/reviews/chefschoice-trizor-xv-review/https://www.nytimes.com/wirecutter/...pick-victorinox-fibrox-pro-8-inch-chefs-knife
I’ve owned Chef’s Choice sharpeners in the past and personally if I were to get an electric I would ask Santa for a Ken Onion Work Sharp, but I’m the type to see multiple belts as “flexible” rather than “yet another thing to lose”, if you’re in a commercial cafe you might see things the opposite way

 

[blokey]

Victorinox is really good for commerical beaters, better than most cheap stuff with really bad stainless steel. If you don't mind AliExpress stuff tho, Xinzuo 440C is surprisingly ok, I bought one of their stuff for my roommate, while it is far from on par with my "slightly" more expensive knives, they cuts well, and 440C is suppose to have longer edge retention. Unlike most Amazon and AliExpress stuff they actually have a good grind. Tho that's just my anecdote. If you can find Victorinox in local restaurants supply with good customer service, go for it. Mercer is another mainstream brand, their slightly higher line use silimat steel as Victorinox. I heard some good thing regarding Dexter too but not so sure about their steel.
One other option is buy used German stuff off eBay, tho that could be risky.

 

[stringer]

I would recommend not trying to move away from your rental knives all at once. Maybe pick up one Victorinox and a Crystolon or India combination stone. The rental knives are a much thicker stock and they sharpen them on grinders. They do two passes. The first thins the knife near the edge. Then the second pass is for the actual cutting bevel. This sharpens the knives very quickly, and the fat coarse bevels are indestructible, but not very sharp or effective. Victorinox and their knock-offs are on much thinner stock. So they don't require the relief bevel. This makes them much easier to sharpen by hand or on a machine of some sort if that is the direction you want to go. But either way there is a learning curve. I wouldn't want to hold up my operation while I tried to figure it out. But if you just start with one or two knives then there isn't a whole lot of time or money or operational integrity riding on the investment.

I enjoy sharpening expensive fancy knives a lot more, but the vast vast majority of knives I have sharpened in my life are cheap restaurant supply knives with NSF plastic handles. Right now I run a small cafe, but I have also maintained the knives for much larger kitchens with dozens of cooks with the same sorts of strategies.

You have to set it up for stone sharpening. If you could do in a couple minutes, then everybody would be doing it.

There is a learning curve. But a couple minutes per knife is all it takes on stones. Here are the house knives for my current establishment.

It takes me 1-2 minutes per knife to sharpen them. I mostly just use an India Coarse stone and then strop on a kitchen rag. Maybe once every couple of weeks.

 

[mengwong]

Whichever way I go I think I will invest in stones and learn to do it by hand... just in case and for my own edification.

Hey guys, prepare the rabbit hole for the “which stone?” question lol

My opinion, pick any one, according to wallet:
Shapton Pro 1000
Naniwa Chosera 800
Shapton Glass 1000
JKI Diamond 1000

Playlist:

I don’t want to step on the FAQ’s toes so I’ll stop here.

 

[PappaG]

Where are you? I'm in Bergen County. I will loan you stones (and sharpen for free if you need help.. if you are not (yet) ready to take the plunge....

 

[coxhaus]

I think the guy is wrong about MAC knives lasting longer than Wusthof Classic knives sharpening wise in the article on best knives in my way of thinking. I own both and my MAC Pro has a problem with lime juice. After having lime juice on it for a week or so cutting limes it would not cut tomatoes well which I call dull. This was not a problem with my Henckels knives. During the hot summer around August, we always end up having lots of cold lime drinks. A knife gets used to cut limes, so it has lime juice on it for several hours. It gets refreshed with lime juice as more drinks are made. Usually at night the knife gets rinsed and put in the knife block. Then it repeats on and off for days. My wife picked the MAC knife this last time. After a week or 2 I noticed the MAC knife would not cut tomatoes well. My wife switched off the MAC knife is how I knew. We have been doing this for years and I never have noticed a problem with my Henckels knives.

So far, I have not noticed a difference in my Henckels and Wusthof Classic knives other than I prefer some models over others. Sharpening is about the same.

I have since pulled my MAC knife from my active knife block. It is now in the overflow drawer with some other knives. I am trying to find a friend to take it.

 

[NJDan]

Hey guys, prepare the rabbit hole for the “which stone?” question lol

My opinion, pick any one, according to wallet:
Shapton Pro 1000
Naniwa Chosera 800
Shapton Glass 1000
JKI Diamond 1000

Playlist:

I don’t want to step on the FAQ’s toes so I’ll stop here.

lol. How'd you know? That'll be a little bit down the road once I figure out the rest. For now I'm preoccupied with wondering why these guys are wearing Japanese robes or kimonos -- not exactly sure what they are called.

 

[NJDan]

Where are you? I'm in Bergen County. I will loan you stones (and sharpen for free if you need help.. if you are not (yet) ready to take the plunge....

Thanks so much! I think I'm OK for now but I'll keep that in mind.

 

[coxhaus]

I am not sure I would want to use a knife only sharpen on a India course stone. That is too rough for me. Maybe a couple more stones and grits.

In 3 minutes, I can sharpen on 3 belts using my Worksharp and one of them could be a stropping belt.