next steps in my sharpening journey?

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gollux

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Hey everyone. Last year, on the advice of the lovely people on here, I picked up a Kurosaki R2 gyuto and a set of SG stones: 500, 1k, & 4k. With the help of Youtube, a sharpie, and lots of reading I've gotten to the point where I can put a usable edge on my knives. Because I've never had anyone check my work, I'm not confident that my technique is that great, but I guess the results are ok in use. Still, I would be grateful to any advice about how to progress!

A few concrete questions:

1) Is it worth trying to find someone local to look at my technique? (I live in Melbourne, Australia: I've found one place that offers sharpening classes, but they seem to be oriented towards beginners. Also they're very expensive!)

2) I've just bought my first carbon knife, a Wat Pro 180mm nakiri. Is it worth getting a finer stone (like the SG 8k?) for finishing? Or is my SG 4k fine enough?

3) What's the deal with stropping, anyway? (I think I understand the principles of sharpening: remove fatigued material, raise a burr at the apex on both sides, remove the burr. But I don't understand stropping well enough to know what it's forth and whether I should be doing it.)

Thanks!
 

Rangen

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Skip the sharpening class. You're already well past what they are likely to teach. But watch some videos. Jon Broida and Murray Carter are good choices. The key point is to exactly hit the edge all the way along. Coloring the bevel with a Sharpie, and seeing where you are actually removing metal, is the best trick there is.

Nice choice of first carbon knife. Carbon knives are much more fun to sharpen than stainless, so you're in for a treat. 4K is fine as a finisher for this knife. 8K might not be toothy enough, and is certainly not necessary.

Stropping is controversial for knives, and there are a lot of opinions out there. I remove the burr with gentle edge-leading strokes on each stone as I finish with it. This is something worth spending time on. With a stainless steel knife, it may take more time than the actual sharpening. But I admit that after I'm done, I do strop on basswood spread with 4 micron diamond paste, to get rid of the last vestiges of burr (this is edge-trailing, of course). I'd like to think I should not need that, and perhaps someday I will not. But right now, it really makes the edge sing.
 

HumbleHomeCook

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Hey everyone. Last year, on the advice of the lovely people on here, I picked up a Kurosaki R2 gyuto and a set of SG stones: 500, 1k, & 4k. With the help of Youtube, a sharpie, and lots of reading I've gotten to the point where I can put a usable edge on my knives. Because I've never had anyone check my work, I'm not confident that my technique is that great, but I guess the results are ok in use. Still, I would be grateful to any advice about how to progress!

A few concrete questions:

1) Is it worth trying to find someone local to look at my technique? (I live in Melbourne, Australia: I've found one place that offers sharpening classes, but they seem to be oriented towards beginners. Also they're very expensive!)

2) I've just bought my first carbon knife, a Wat Pro 180mm nakiri. Is it worth getting a finer stone (like the SG 8k?) for finishing? Or is my SG 4k fine enough?

3) What's the deal with stropping, anyway? (I think I understand the principles of sharpening: remove fatigued material, raise a burr at the apex on both sides, remove the burr. But I don't understand stropping well enough to know what it's forth and whether I should be doing it.)

Thanks!
All very normal questions and good for you for asking them!

Many here are far superior to me in the sharpening arena but I'll offer the following...

1) No. I would be surprised if at some point we don't all think this, and some of us often. We want a baseline. We want to to know that's what people consider a great edge so now I understand. But the reality is, you're your baseline. It's true. But, that doesn't mean there aren't some tools to help judge things. Besides, most local "pro" sharpeners are probably going to be lacking to what you're doing. They're likely cranking out edges on belt sanders for the masses. Also, use OOTB edges as a baseline. Yeah, maybe they suck. Baseline. Don't just launch into "sharpening" them. Use them for a while. Baseline.

First thing is, be honest with yourself about your edges. Are you happy with their performance? Slicing receipts is a good starting point. Clean and quiet is the goal. If you can cleanly slice receipt paper without snags along the whole edge, you've likely got a good edge.

2) I don't think so. Maybe later, but first get confidence in your technique. We can't stone our way into better edges. What you have should be able to produce excellent edges so it is now about understanding and technique.

3) Stropping, in various ways can be controversial. Forget all of that for now and strop. It is a technique, not a tool, although I do recommend a strop of some sort (cardboard works). Sharpening is all about the apex and the burr. Study those two things and stropping will make more sense. It's about removing the burr and aligning the edge.

Keep asking questions!
 

gollux

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Skip the sharpening class. You're already well past what they are likely to teach. But watch some videos. Jon Broida and Murray Carter are good choices. The key point is to exactly hit the edge all the way along. Coloring the bevel with a Sharpie, and seeing where you are actually removing metal, is the best trick there is.

Nice choice of first carbon knife. Carbon knives are much more fun to sharpen than stainless, so you're in for a treat. 4K is fine as a finisher for this knife. 8K might not be toothy enough, and is certainly not necessary.

Stropping is controversial for knives, and there are a lot of opinions out there. I remove the burr with gentle edge-leading strokes on each stone as I finish with it. This is something worth spending time on. With a stainless steel knife, it may take more time than the actual sharpening. But I admit that after I'm done, I do strop on basswood spread with 4 micron diamond paste, to get rid of the last vestiges of burr (this is edge-trailing, of course). I'd like to think I should not need that, and perhaps someday I will not. But right now, it really makes the edge sing.
Thanks for this generous response. I'm continually amazed at how generous people are in this forum! Honestly, it gives me hope for the world.

All of this is really helpful - and also quite comforting. I've been watching a bunch of Jon Broida's videos, but I'll check out Murray Carter as well. As for a finer stone, I'm glad to know that I'm good with what I've got.

Having spent the day reading about stropping, I think I understand a bit better what it's about. It seems like I need to learn more about burr removal, though! I usually remove the bur with light edge trailing strokes, alternating between sides. But maybe I've been doing it wrong.

On your advice, I'll pick up a strop and give it a go. I'm about to put in an order from Burrfection anyway: is this the sort of strop I should be looking at?


Thanks again!
 

gollux

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All very normal questions and good for you for asking them!

Many here are far superior to me in the sharpening arena but I'll offer the following...

1) No. I would be surprised if at some point we don't all think this, and some of us often. We want a baseline. We want to to know that's what people consider a great edge so now I understand. But the reality is, you're your baseline. It's true. But, that doesn't mean there aren't some tools to help judge things. Besides, most local "pro" sharpeners are probably going to be lacking to what you're doing. They're likely cranking out edges on belt sanders for the masses. Also, use OOTB edges as a baseline. Yeah, maybe they suck. Baseline. Don't just launch into "sharpening" them. Use them for a while. Baseline.

First thing is, be honest with yourself about your edges. Are you happy with their performance? Slicing receipts is a good starting point. Clean and quiet is the goal. If you can cleanly slice receipt paper without snags along the whole edge, you've likely got a good edge.

2) I don't think so. Maybe later, but first get confidence in your technique. We can't stone our way into better edges. What you have should be able to produce excellent edges so it is now about understanding and technique.

3) Stropping, in various ways can be controversial. Forget all of that for now and strop. It is a technique, not a tool, although I do recommend a strop of some sort (cardboard works). Sharpening is all about the apex and the burr. Study those two things and stropping will make more sense. It's about removing the burr and aligning the edge.

Keep asking questions!
This is hugely helpful as well. Especially these comments about a baseline. You've put your finger on exactly the feeling I've been having: wondering if I've ever experienced an edge that's truly great, in which case I might not know whether the edge I can produce is any good. What you say makes a lot of sense, though. Rather than straining for some sort of abstract perfection, I should work to produce edges that I can work with - and then work to make them better.

I do have one other question, actually. I think one of the things that's been nagging at me is the fact that I have a hard time finding the burr on finer stones. I can usually pick it out on my 1k stone, but on the 4k stone it's tricky. How can I tell when I've done enough on the finer stones? And how can I tell when I've removed the burr (given that I couldn't feel it in the first place)?

Thanks!
 

Delat

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These were the objective tests/levels for me in improving my sharpening. If you find yourself stuck, just post your technique here and ask for help, or even a video of your technique.

1. Slice cut paper
2. Push cut freestanding paper (fold the paper into thirds accordion-style, stand on edge and push knife straight down)
3a. Push cut rolled paper - hold two edges of the paper to make a rounded side, then slice a curve through the rounded part
3b. Clean slice paper towel - if you can do 3a then your edge should also cleanly slice a paper towel
4. HHT 3 and 4 - these are pure flex IMHO and don’t provide any actual additional cutting value in the kitchen

Level 1 I got to pretty much on the first try but hung out there for a few months. Ditto level 2, got stuck there for a few months, posted here and got some good tips and that got up me up to HHT3. HHT I only try out for kicks when I’m really bored as it requires a lot of conscious effort and care, but it’s nice to know I can do it as a personal milestone. I still consider myself a mediocre sharpener, maybe approaching halfway decent.

BTW sharpest knife OOTB for me was a Yoshikane SKD. That one I just washed and used - I just mention that in case you really want to experience a very sharp edge as a reference point (it was for me when I got it). Don’t blow the budget on a $50 strop - a lot of people here just use a piece of cardboard or cloth or even their jeans. I use a $20 strop from Amazon loaded with green compound.
 
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Delat

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On the 4k there’s no need to raise a burr unless you really want to. If you do fewer, lighter passes you basically partially refine the edge while leaving some of the tooth from the previous stone. This is what I normally do, but sometimes I get a tiny burr anyway especially on carbon steels.

Regardless of whether or not I feel a burr on a 4k, I go through the deburring motions anyway. For me that’s finishing with a few light edge-leading strokes at the same angle. Others might use a steeper angle or pull the edge through cork. You’ll get tons of advice and methods for deburring and IMHO you just pick whatever works best for you and makes sense at the time. Then when you get more experience you revisit other methods and see if they make more sense to try at that point.
 

HumbleHomeCook

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This is hugely helpful as well. Especially these comments about a baseline. You've put your finger on exactly the feeling I've been having: wondering if I've ever experienced an edge that's truly great, in which case I might not know whether the edge I can produce is any good. What you say makes a lot of sense, though. Rather than straining for some sort of abstract perfection, I should work to produce edges that I can work with - and then work to make them better.

I do have one other question, actually. I think one of the things that's been nagging at me is the fact that I have a hard time finding the burr on finer stones. I can usually pick it out on my 1k stone, but on the 4k stone it's tricky. How can I tell when I've done enough on the finer stones? And how can I tell when I've removed the burr (given that I couldn't feel it in the first place)?

Thanks!
Your eyes are very helpful. A 10x or 20x can really help here. But you can use light to help. Study the sharpened edge compared the opposite side. You're looking for those reflections. You'll know when you see it, it'll look different.

You can also drag the edge along a tissue or something feeling for snags.

Also, as you gain experience you might find it easier to detect by feel. I can usually detect a burr off a 4k so be sure you actually have raised one vs. not feeling it. But, some folks do struggle and that is okay. Just have to find tools to work around it.

And that's if you even want a burr off the 4k. That's another discussion too. :)
 

inferno

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Hey everyone. Last year, on the advice of the lovely people on here, I picked up a Kurosaki R2 gyuto and a set of SG stones: 500, 1k, & 4k. With the help of Youtube, a sharpie, and lots of reading I've gotten to the point where I can put a usable edge on my knives. Because I've never had anyone check my work, I'm not confident that my technique is that great, but I guess the results are ok in use. Still, I would be grateful to any advice about how to progress!

A few concrete questions:

1) Is it worth trying to find someone local to look at my technique? (I live in Melbourne, Australia: I've found one place that offers sharpening classes, but they seem to be oriented towards beginners. Also they're very expensive!)

2) I've just bought my first carbon knife, a Wat Pro 180mm nakiri. Is it worth getting a finer stone (like the SG 8k?) for finishing? Or is my SG 4k fine enough?

3) What's the deal with stropping, anyway? (I think I understand the principles of sharpening: remove fatigued material, raise a burr at the apex on both sides, remove the burr. But I don't understand stropping well enough to know what it's forth and whether I should be doing it.)

Thanks!
an 8 or 6k will feel sharper. but the 4k should be enough for almost everyone. also high grit stones are expensive.
 

Benuser

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A loupe (10x) together with the sharpie can be very useful to make sure you have reached the very edge. A burr isn't entirely reliable: it may appear before. Quite different from the sharpie alone. You will be surprised.
I use the finest cigarette paper to test for burr remnants. See how it cuts and listen to the sound.
I use rough leather or cardboard for stropping on one side between coarse and medium stones to push all debris to the other side and abrade them, and vice versa. Shortens deburring between the stones.
 
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cotedupy

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G'day!

1.) Nah, personally I wouldn't bother. Also there are quite a few members here in Melbourne who you could hook up with and learn some stuff if you wanted. And if you're talking about the place in Richmond - next time I'm staying with my friend round the corner from there, you can come round there instead and I'll give you a free 'lesson', and/or go for a pint in the pub next to her apartment.

2.) 4k is happily fine enough :)

3.) Cardboard / paper / your sleeve works grand. Here's a picture of my left arm atm:

IMG-2956.jpg
 

gollux

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These were the objective tests/levels for me in improving my sharpening. If you find yourself stuck, just post your technique here and ask for help, or even a video of your technique.

1. Slice cut paper
2. Push cut freestanding paper (fold the paper into thirds accordion-style, stand on edge and push knife straight down)
3a. Push cut rolled paper - hold two edges of the paper to make a rounded side, then slice a curve through the rounded part
3b. Clean slice paper towel - if you can do 3a then your edge should also cleanly slice a paper towel
4. HHT 3 and 4 - these are pure flex IMHO and don’t provide any actual additional cutting value in the kitchen

Level 1 I got to pretty much on the first try but hung out there for a few months. Ditto level 2, got stuck there for a few months, posted here and got some good tips and that got up me up to HHT3. HHT I only try out for kicks when I’m really bored as it requires a lot of conscious effort and care, but it’s nice to know I can do it as a personal milestone. I still consider myself a mediocre sharpener, maybe approaching halfway decent.

BTW sharpest knife OOTB for me was a Yoshikane SKD. That one I just washed and used - I just mention that in case you really want to experience a very sharp edge as a reference point (it was for me when I got it). Don’t blow the budget on a $50 strop - a lot of people here just use a piece of cardboard or cloth or even their jeans. I use a $20 strop from Amazon loaded with green compound.
This is awesome - it's really useful to have concrete ways to benchmark the edges I'm getting. I will save this list and refer to it often!

It's useful too to know that the Yoshikane SKD came with a good edge. I was actually thinking about picking up Yoshikane SKD petty; this gives me another reason to try to find one in stock!

Thanks again.
 

gollux

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Your eyes are very helpful. A 10x or 20x can really help here. But you can use light to help. Study the sharpened edge compared the opposite side. You're looking for those reflections. You'll know when you see it, it'll look different.

You can also drag the edge along a tissue or something feeling for snags.

Also, as you gain experience you might find it easier to detect by feel. I can usually detect a burr off a 4k so be sure you actually have raised one vs. not feeling it. But, some folks do struggle and that is okay. Just have to find tools to work around it.

And that's if you even want a burr off the 4k. That's another discussion too. :)
Thanks for these tips. I had actually been using a dish cloth with loops to feel for snags, but I wasn't sure how much to trust it as a test. Now I will! I actually have a loupe somewhere: I'll pull that out as well.
 

gollux

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an 8 or 6k will feel sharper. but the 4k should be enough for almost everyone. also high grit stones are expensive.
Thanks, @inferno! And thanks for your advice last year as well. I think I read that you've had some health issues - I hope you're doing better. 🙏 I've had issues of my own: I got hit by a car earlier in the year while I was riding my bike, and it has left me with a brain injury that has been very slow to resolve. The world can be pretty brutal!
 

gollux

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A loupe (10x) together with the sharpie can be very useful to make sure you have reached the very edge. A burr isn't entirely reliable: it may appear before. Quite different from the sharpie alone. You will be surprised.
I use the finest cigarette paper to test for burr remnants. See how it cuts and listen to the sound.
I use rough leather or cardboard for stropping on one side between coarse and medium stones to push all debris to the other side and abrade them, and vice versa. Shortens deburring between the stones.
Right - testing with sound is another thing that hadn't occurred to me. That's really useful.
 

gollux

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G'day!

1.) Nah, personally I wouldn't bother. Also there are quite a few members here in Melbourne who you could hook up with and learn some stuff if you wanted. And if you're talking about the place in Richmond - next time I'm staying with my friend round the corner from there, you can come round there instead and I'll give you a free 'lesson', and/or go for a pint in the pub next to her apartment.

2.) 4k is happily fine enough :)

3.) Cardboard / paper / your sleeve works grand. Here's a picture of my left arm atm:

View attachment 144269
That's really kind, thanks. I would be happy to buy you many beers if you're happy to talk about sharpening! (Whenever pubs are open again, I mean.) :)
 

Luftmensch

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@gollux

Hopefully you have gotten some good information out of the thread so far?

Maybe I can hook you up with a local perspective?

1) Is it worth trying to find someone local to look at my technique? (I live in Melbourne, Australia: I've found one place that offers sharpening classes, but they seem to be oriented towards beginners. Also they're very expensive!)
Check out this thread.

I cant really speak in defence or opposition to Chef's Armoury. I met the owner once and he seemed like a nice, knowledgeable guy. On the other hand, I have heard mixed things about the sharpening service - from ok to horror story (could be truly bad service, could be bad luck with 'the new guy').

Start a private chat with @NameAlreadyTaken (or do it here so others can benefit :)). Ask questions to see if you would gain anything from a class. If you are interested, reach out to @outofgamut and @jmsfoote. They might still be considering a private session (given how the past three months have been ;))

It is really hard to judge whether a class is a good value proposition for another person. It depends on their skill. It depends on the teacher... and it depends on how much they are willing to spend to gain any information. One tip for $150-200, might save you 6 months of buggering about... or it might be a waste of time!

I am kind of tempted to say, if you, @outofgamut and @jmsfoote can arrange a private session... it might just be a fun two hours? If nothing else? Particularly if you three are social birds. Maybe speak to Chef's Armoury and see if they would be happy for you to bring a bottle of sake/whisky, you guys could have a mini Richmond tasting / KKF gathering 😁


Other than that... Continue to do what you are doing. Learn from the resources around you and practice. Practice. Practice! @Delat's comment about setting goals is a decent one. Try and establish a method for monitoring your progress. It is super fun seeing how far you can push the envelope... and I encourage you to! But you dont really need to go any further than push cutting sharpness. That will serve you well and be sharper than the majority of kitchen knives out there!
 

cotedupy

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@cotedupy,

I have to admit... I like playing "Where's Wally" with uploaded photos... I enjoyed this one:
View attachment 144688


Beware!!! Couch knife!

😁
Haha, excellent! I hadn't noticed that.

(By way of explanation - that isn't evidence that my collection has got so excessive that every available part of the house must now be turned over to knife storage... I had just fitted the handle, and use that bit of sofa to keep knives straight and upright as the glue sets properly.)
 

cotedupy

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That's really kind, thanks. I would be happy to buy you many beers if you're happy to talk about sharpening! (Whenever pubs are open again, I mean.) :)
I'll give a shout next time I can make it over. Always keen to chat sharpening, and be of any assistance if possible.

But what @Luftmensch and @Delat said is most important; practice is key, and having targets is helpful. The HHT may be a bit pointless in practice, but I think anyone who was trying out @captaincaed 's little challenge earlier this year would agree that they'd come away with a good amount of deeper understanding about the workings of stones, geometry, n stuff. I know I did anyway!
 

gollux

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@gollux

Hopefully you have gotten some good information out of the thread so far?

Maybe I can hook you up with a local perspective?



Check out this thread.

I cant really speak in defence or opposition to Chef's Armoury. I met the owner once and he seemed like a nice, knowledgeable guy. On the other hand, I have heard mixed things about the sharpening service - from ok to horror story (could be truly bad service, could be bad luck with 'the new guy').

Start a private chat with @NameAlreadyTaken (or do it here so others can benefit :)). Ask questions to see if you would gain anything from a class. If you are interested, reach out to @outofgamut and @jmsfoote. They might still be considering a private session (given how the past three months have been ;))

It is really hard to judge whether a class is a good value proposition for another person. It depends on their skill. It depends on the teacher... and it depends on how much they are willing to spend to gain any information. One tip for $150-200, might save you 6 months of buggering about... or it might be a waste of time!

I am kind of tempted to say, if you, @outofgamut and @jmsfoote can arrange a private session... it might just be a fun two hours? If nothing else? Particularly if you three are social birds. Maybe speak to Chef's Armoury and see if they would be happy for you to bring a bottle of sake/whisky, you guys could have a mini Richmond tasting / KKF gathering 😁


Other than that... Continue to do what you are doing. Learn from the resources around you and practice. Practice. Practice! @Delat's comment about setting goals is a decent one. Try and establish a method for monitoring your progress. It is super fun seeing how far you can push the envelope... and I encourage you to! But you dont really need to go any further than push cutting sharpness. That will serve you well and be sharper than the majority of kitchen knives out there!
Thanks for these suggestions, @Luftmensch. I'm grateful for the encouragement and the advice!
 

gollux

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I'll give a shout next time I can make it over. Always keen to chat sharpening, and be of any assistance if possible.

But what @Luftmensch and @Delat said is most important; practice is key, and having targets is helpful. The HHT may be a bit pointless in practice, but I think anyone who was trying out @captaincaed 's little challenge earlier this year would agree that they'd come away with a good amount of deeper understanding about the workings of stones, geometry, n stuff. I know I did anyway!
Thanks so much, @cotedupy. I feel lucky to have found such a generous community to help me improve! Take care, and hopefully see you in Richmond sometime.
 

Nemo

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I got hit by a car earlier in the year while I was riding my bike, and it has left me with a brain injury that has been very slow to resolve. The world can be pretty brutal!
I'm very sorry to hear about your injury. I hope that things improve for you.

There has been one positive report in the forums on the lesson from the place in Richmond. But there is a lot of expertise on the forums and many members in Melbourne who are good sharpeners. FWIW, catching up with forumites in Melbourne has been very helpful in progressing my sharpening skills. Not that I've been able to get down to Melbourne any time in the last 18 months.

You do not need an 8k stone. Unless you want to shave your face with it. 4k is easily enough for kitchen use. A finer stone CAN feel sharper but it can also make it easier to stuff the edge up if you don't have a consistent technique. Reason being that you need more strokes to remove the same amount of metal, so more opportunities for error.

Indeed, a 1k stone can generate a good edge for kitchen use. There is no point going beyond 1k until you can make a sharp edge on 1k. This requires a appreciation of good burr control and burr removal.

There are many techniques for burr control and many more for burr removal. You will need to develop your own preferred technique (or combination of techniques).

Important steps in my own sharpening progress were:

1) The use of super light (weight of the knife only) edge leading strokes for burr minimisation. I follow this with a stroke parallel to the edge to remove the burr, followed by lightly dragging the edge through cork or felt.

2) @Sailor 's stepped pressure control technique, which can be found in the knifeplanet.net sharpening school. You can feel (and often see) the bits of burr break off as you go through the lower pressure levels.

3) @Dave Martell 's technique of repeating the last few steps of sharpening as a kind of "thorough edge clean up".

4) The @Kippington deburring method (KDM) can be used as an alternative. It results in a microbevel which IME is less capable against flimsy kitchen paper but just as capable (and probably more durable) against food. It's a much quicker and easier technique but I will warn you that it feels very wrong the first couple of times that you do it. Search "Kippington deburring video" for a discussion of the technique.

I tend to use the KDM for stainless steels as these can be a pain to deburr in the traditional way and will usually benefit from a microbevel (due to the large carbide volume). I usually use a combination of the first 3 techniques for carbon steels (which are easier to deburr and generally will hold a fine edge angle (due to lower carbide volume).

As mentioned, there are many approaches to deburring and the ones that I have mentioned are only the ones that have worked well for me. Many other techniques are likely to work well.
 
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Kippington

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Is it worth trying to find someone local to look at my technique? (I live in Melbourne, Australia: I've found one place that offers sharpening classes, but they seem to be oriented towards beginners. Also they're very expensive!)
Where abouts are you in Melbourne? If you're close to Coburg, you can come around to my place and I'd be happy to take a look at your technique, give you some tips and stuff like that.

edit: I just took a look at the local news. Maybe we can do it after the Covid stuff settles down a bit.
 
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Nemo

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Where abouts are you in Melbourne? If you're close to Coburg, you can come around to my place and I'd be happy to take a look at your technique, give you some tips and stuff like that.

edit: I just took a look at the local news. Maybe we can do it after the Covid stuff settles down a bit.
FWIW, I learned a lot from Kip. And not just the KDM.
 

Luftmensch

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@gollux in case you dont know who @Kippington (aka Kip) is, he is a the knife maker behind the eponymous Kippington Blades.

Don't be fooled by his light online footprint. He is well known in these parts and is celebrated for his thoughtful posts and great knives (I am yet to try one 🤢 <- green/sick with envy).

Consider taking him up on that offer. @Kippington, would you be happy to help out three people?
 
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