BillHanna
Gotta get ready for ARM
The OP post even got pruned lol. At this moment, it's just IsoJ being decent, and three mod posts yelling at the memories of what was.
Not the Raquin suji thread
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The part I find fascinating about the various flipper threads that have blown up over the past months or years is that I can't recall a single example where the OP simply said "I'm sorry, I didn't understand what the accepted conventions are here" or something similar. Instead the reflex seems to be to become combative, obfuscate, and generally not paint oneself in a particularly sympathetic light. In addition to being part of a community that tends to be knowledgeable, welcoming, and helpful; genuine deals do come along here with some regularity and playing nice with your peers, or at least not going out of your way to be abrasive, tends to have significant rewards. Why someone that cares about kitchen knives would choose to take an adversarial tack here and likely end up on many "ignore" lists escapes me.
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BillHanna
Gotta get ready for ARM
I just realized why I might not see the OP. oopsy daisy.
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Oh man I should have sold my 315 Raquin Monster Gyuto for 5K instead of the same price I paid for it. What a n00b.
+1 for a pair of Raquin’s I sold a couple of weeks ago for less than the Raquin under current discussion is priced at.
Then again I think I would rather have the friendship and acceptance of many KKF members than to receive their derision in return for a couple of bucks in my pocket. That, however, is just my opinion and I leave it to others to make their own evaluations.
Then again I think I would rather have the friendship and acceptance of many KKF members than to receive their derision in return for a couple of bucks in my pocket. That, however, is just my opinion and I leave it to others to make their own evaluations.
you fascinate me with your story of "the right price is the one the buyer is willing to pay". certainly a cultural and ideological difference from the old world... this argument is the open door to all the drifts, all the speculations, as if there were not enough of them... the power of money that justifies all ****** behavior... it is already a big part of what governs our life and to accept it in a network, a community "small" enough to be able to set its own rules, fairer, is a sad mistake in my opinion.
My2cent...
In addition to that, kkf already seems to want to limit this kind of behavior, since it is asked not to erase the price of goods sold to keep a follow up...
Why not be consistent to the end?
Beyond these considerations I find it is a lack of respect for the craftsman, who has worked and estimated by setting his own price: the quality of his work, time spent and materials used...
it's also a lack of respect towards the community, the one that sticks behind its computer hoping to have the opportunity to acquire and try the work of a craftsman.
a big screw you in short, but hey..."if someones willing to pay the price"...
My2cent...In addition to that, kkf already seems to want to limit this kind of behavior, since it is asked not to erase the price of goods sold to keep a follow up...
Why not be consistent to the end?
Beyond these considerations I find it is a lack of respect for the craftsman, who has worked and estimated by setting his own price: the quality of his work, time spent and materials used...
it's also a lack of respect towards the community, the one that sticks behind its computer hoping to have the opportunity to acquire and try the work of a craftsman.
a big screw you in short, but hey..."if someones willing to pay the price"...
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I will say that I've been here six years and this is the first time I've ever seen somone raise the price in the middle of a sale.
Corradobrit1
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Certainly not the first time, but the previous example was done in jest TFTFTFTFTFTF. Go Team Beige.I will say that I've been here six years and this is the first time I've ever seen somone raise the price in the middle of a sale.
In this particular case the seller is living up to his carefully curated reputation.
you fascinate me with your story of "the right price is the one the buyer is willing to pay". certainly a cultural and ideological difference from the old world... this argument is the open door to all the drifts, all the speculations, as if there were not enough of them... the power of money that justifies all ****** behavior... it is already a big part of what governs our life and to accept it in a network, a community "small" enough to be able to set its own rules, fairer, is a sad mistake in my opinion.
In addition to that, kkf already seems to want to limit this kind of behavior, since it is asked not to erase the price of goods sold to keep a follow up...
Why not be consistent to the end?
Beyond these considerations I find it is a lack of respect for the craftsman, who has worked and estimated by setting his own price: the quality of his work, time spent and materials used...
it's also a lack of respect towards the community, the one that sticks behind its computer hoping to have the opportunity to acquire and try the work of a craftsman.
a big screw you in short, but hey..."if someones willing to pay the price"...
Why not be consistent to the end?
If you do not let the buyer and the seller determine the price; then it will be done by a single entity, a person or committee or collective. The power of the transaction is moved to this other entity. This person or committee would be "beyond reproach".
The only problem being that all of human history has shown us that "beyond reproach" is nothing but a fairy tale, an unrealizable ideal, a fantasy. Eventually the best stuff finds its way to the doors of the committee and its "friends".
In a society where free markets of goods and services can be dominated by a few to the detriment of that society, it behooves the society to create regulation of commodities that are necessary for that society to thrive. That regulation is a dangerous balancing act in itself; and is prone to corruption by ignorance and greed, likely some combination of the two.
KKF is a forum loosely comprised of collectors of luxury items. Anyone who stays more that a few days is a collector. It is a fools mission to argue that KKF members access to buying "necessary" knives is somehow impacted by the individual transactions relevant to this post. The knives that are being traded are scarce in their particulars (smith, metal, form, construction). But knives are everywhere.
It won't injure me or the surrounding society if I can not own a Raquin. There are a bazillion other knives I can buy to fit my needs. It might hurt my feelings or my sense of self importance if I can not have the one, or usually the ones, I want. If individuals of the community were unable to eat or were otherwise forced to suffer profoundly due to the greed of the seller; then the community should act. But, the idea that we must regulate a singular luxury transaction of this type, beyond potentially taxing it, is repugnant. That is why no one actually proposes the alternatives to the free market here. They criticize it; but most know there is no viable alternative.
There have to be rules that dictate the distribution of goods. The challenge is to replace the current system of free market distribution with another form of distribution. But that system must be superior; otherwise why go to the trouble of replacing?
The student of history will note that all other forms of distribution have been around for as long as people have been relying on each others and trading for goods. To date, all iterations are worse.
The idea that Brain is somehow hurt here is twisted. Brian may love what he does; but he will always have a limited output. Not everyone in the world will have an opportunity to try a Raquin. I believe he works for the money gets from his sales, otherwise he would be giving away his knives. Having his work go for higher and higher prices allows him to then charge more and more in his future dealings. His worth as a smith increases. That benefits him and his family.
I get it, you want to try a Raquin. I wish you the best of luck. And if you get it and love it; I hope that you will never be forced to give it up to a committee or the friends of a committee for the "greater good" of society.
I have a slightly different take on the subject which can best be described like this. I prefer that visitors to my home remove their shoes before entering. If they don’t, I probably won’t say anything but there is a strong possibility that the offending visitor won’t be invited back. KKF is a bit like a home for kitchen knife enthusiasts. Many prefer that visitors using BST price within a realm of reason. Egregious cases of moving beyond the realm of reason may draw comment from other members and there is a possibility that many will decline to involve themselves in future transactions with the visitor. What is “outside the realm of reason”? Like obscenity it’s very hard to describe, but is very apparent to most when it’s present.
Jville
I used to work in a Mexican restaurant
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The thing that you are missing. Is that people are not trying to create a formula or a small committee to regulate price. This is left out basically all the time by people who defend flipping: people being allowed to criticize prices is a major and natural necessity of a true free market. When all you allow is the good things or the “hype train” to race down the tracks without some brakes things go out of control. I’m not saying these legendary knives known in the community are “hype”, but you need the balance of people saying whoa that is too much to help regulate a true free market. Censoring this creates basically propaganda and doesn’t allow for balance. You want the whole to community to basically ignore the issue and turn a blind eye to it. You can see this with the Kono HD and KS. There was a time they were selling out so fast it was hard to get one. People started flipping them. But people started speaking out saying stuff like great knife but not worth paying all that extra. The hype was brought down a notch and the flipping stopped. If one wants one now someone can go buy an HD and or KS pretty easily. Don’t get me wrong, I’m not saying limited amounts of shigs, Katos, Raquin would all of a sudden become plentiful, but you still need to balance the market with people being able to criticize prices.
Fwiw, I thought @Midsummer was replying to the guy above who was saying that we *should* have rules against flipping.
Carl Kotte
Senior Member
No No No, I did it too! Way before him!I will say that I've been here six years and this is the first time I've ever seen somone raise the price in the middle of a sale.
Making it one step simpler:
If people want the right to set any price they want for an item, they are going to be subject to discussions and criticisms of those patterns. Nobody is saying "this should be regulated!" it seems, rather, that people expect honesty and decency in their transactions and if they don't get it, they are likely to criticize and react - and they have, in my eyes, every right to do so. It protects the potential next buyer, it illuminates the situation more clearly, etc.
From what little I saw of the initial thread, as well as what's presented here, that isn't what happened. If the seller had posted "This knife is beautiful, but I'm selling it, here's my price" and then reacted well to comments, people would have moved on. Instead, the seller was at minima cagey and otherwise outright lying about the blade and it's provenance, contradicting himself in the text of the orignal post and just generally being kind of a tool. Calling him on that is fine - this is a forum on the Internet. If he expects to be swaddled like a newborn while he's treating other posters like first time sex slave in an underground brothel, doing the later in a public forum is probably ill-advised.
Simple, basic rules for me would be: you have to post the price, you have to leave the price, ideally you have to indicate the actual sale price via post or edit. OTOH, uninterested parties probably should not specifically talk about the price in the thread. Then, a thread clearinghouse for "too high" or "too low" or "juuuuuust right" is perhaps a good idea?
When you first show your face in a collector milleu, you don't know jack or squat. Having some of these data points can be super useful.
If people want the right to set any price they want for an item, they are going to be subject to discussions and criticisms of those patterns. Nobody is saying "this should be regulated!" it seems, rather, that people expect honesty and decency in their transactions and if they don't get it, they are likely to criticize and react - and they have, in my eyes, every right to do so. It protects the potential next buyer, it illuminates the situation more clearly, etc.
From what little I saw of the initial thread, as well as what's presented here, that isn't what happened. If the seller had posted "This knife is beautiful, but I'm selling it, here's my price" and then reacted well to comments, people would have moved on. Instead, the seller was at minima cagey and otherwise outright lying about the blade and it's provenance, contradicting himself in the text of the orignal post and just generally being kind of a tool. Calling him on that is fine - this is a forum on the Internet. If he expects to be swaddled like a newborn while he's treating other posters like first time sex slave in an underground brothel, doing the later in a public forum is probably ill-advised.
Simple, basic rules for me would be: you have to post the price, you have to leave the price, ideally you have to indicate the actual sale price via post or edit. OTOH, uninterested parties probably should not specifically talk about the price in the thread. Then, a thread clearinghouse for "too high" or "too low" or "juuuuuust right" is perhaps a good idea?
When you first show your face in a collector milleu, you don't know jack or squat. Having some of these data points can be super useful.
I will not take offense at your post. I think it’s ironic that you say “don’t get me wrong“. And yet you get me wrong.
I have two options one I can ask you where I said “you want the whole community do basically ignore the issue and turned a blind eye to it“. Or even where I even intimated the such thing. Or I could ask to have some of the stuff you’re smoking because you must be higher than high. Sounds good to me.
I’ll also point out that I didn’t suggest that people shouldn’t be able to criticize prices. I think they should maybe you should have asked.
PS: I know this is all in fun. Hope you’re having a good day. You need to send me some of that weed.
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Thanks, you are of course right. Everyone is just having their say and I was practicing the argument for regulated free market economies.
It seems much of the younger generation was not schooled well in the failures and abuses of some of the regimes that rejected free market economics.
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Was waiving time and post count requirements with Supporting Members for eligibility to B/S/T such a good idea? I now see people selling their stuff without ever having contributed to the Forum, other than posting sale offers. In fact, behaving like Vendors. They should be recognisable as such, and pay accordingly.
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Possibly controversial statement here, but I’m gonna go for it. Do note that I’m new to this community and am still learning about how it functions.
Wouldn’t the most effective way to prevent flippers from becoming an issue on the forum be to just ignore them?
The less responses they get on their posts, and the less people that pay attention to them in general would effectively cause their attempts at selling to get drown out by the other BST posts.
Wouldn’t the most effective way to prevent flippers from becoming an issue on the forum be to just ignore them?
The less responses they get on their posts, and the less people that pay attention to them in general would effectively cause their attempts at selling to get drown out by the other BST posts.
Jovidah
I'll make you a sponsor offer you can't refuse...
Although it's tempting to just respond to this kind of logical fallacy with 'okay boomer'... I'll use a few more words. It seems much of <insert generation here> does not understand that unrestricted free market does not exist, even in the most capitalist countries - and with good reason. There's long lists of laws, regulations, and institutions controlling and restricting the free market, even in countries like the USA. Simply because it was recognized that unrestricted free market brings its own set of problems. Similarly, some of the results of an unrestricted free market might be directly at odds with whatever goals a community of enthusiasts might have.
Ironically, as mentioned above, there already are restrictions to the free market in this forum, largely affecting the free flow of information that is normally significant for the functioning of a free market.
When it comes to those rules I find it hard to really judge them since I do not know what the original intentions were when those rules were written down - the spirit of the law. They might have had the best of intentions. But 'the rules are the rules because they are the rules' which is now sometimes used as counter-argument is somewhat unsatisfactory. It's also worth questioning whether the rules have the effect they originally intended to have.
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As someone new to the forum and knives in general, if the community ignored flippers or conversations about price/value, it would make it harder for me to identifying overpriced knives. I can't speak to anyone else but I rarely covet a single knife enough to pay "over the commonly accepted market value" for it and would highly regret doing so. Discussions about the value of knives also informs me about how to fairly price my knives when I decide to sell them (cheap, because I suck at sharpening). However, I am not a collector. I just like making big chunks of foodstuffs into smaller chunks in the easiest way possible.
As an aside, because the seller can "bump" their own posts, I don't think ignoring a flipper would be effective at limiting the visability of their posts. If their was a limit, like the seller could only post once a week or in response to a question/comment, your suggestion might work.
I apologize to my opponents, but my English is not good enough to continue this exciting debate...
To those who inevitably refer to communism as soon as one dares to say that the "free market" leads to inequalities and thus advocates liberalism/capitalism as the only viable option: lol. It is certainly the worst economic model of all time, the one that will lead us, all of us, straight to the wall.
For those who are interested and if you have the possibility to do so (I don't know if it's a popular discipline on the other side of the Atlantic), learn more about collapsology, causes and consequences.
To come back to the subject, I would like to know the point of view of the OP @ian ...if it's just to say that your not against a well brought phalanx, but that a fist is a bit too much, I think we all agree on that and don't see the interest of this subject if it's only to make the trolls come out of their hiding place (and in that case, I'll go back to my hole).
To those who inevitably refer to communism as soon as one dares to say that the "free market" leads to inequalities and thus advocates liberalism/capitalism as the only viable option: lol. It is certainly the worst economic model of all time, the one that will lead us, all of us, straight to the wall.
For those who are interested and if you have the possibility to do so (I don't know if it's a popular discipline on the other side of the Atlantic), learn more about collapsology, causes and consequences.
To come back to the subject, I would like to know the point of view of the OP @ian ...if it's just to say that your not against a well brought phalanx, but that a fist is a bit too much, I think we all agree on that and don't see the interest of this subject if it's only to make the trolls come out of their hiding place (and in that case, I'll go back to my hole).
The rules in place already function fine. You can't negatively comment in a BST thread. This rule needs to be there as it is very simple to ruin a sale either by not knowing or by intent. This has happened in the past where well intentioned members trying to save the unsuspected incorrectly questioned the sales and ruined transactions.
Personal example, I was called a flipper in my BST post because previous owner thought I sold his knife for an inflated price. In reality the knife I sold was of the same type from the same maker, but of different length, steel and grind. Because of his comment in my FS thread I had 2 people back out of the sale and I had to explain myself.
I've also seen some sales ruined because well wishing members made mistakes when commenting in BST threads about an item or maker.
In other examples from the past, some people purposely sabotaged other people's sales because of some bad blood or mutual dislikes.
To counter balance the above rule you can post negative comments about the sale everywhere else, so there is no issue of the lack of information. It might not be as convenient to have these in different places, but it clearly works fine. People buying such expensive knives should really look and ask around if they don't know if the price is reasonable or not.
Flipping is a very minor problem here, it just gets a disproportionate amount of airtime and discussion. It also seems that time is a major factor in determining what is or isn't flipping. Clearly no one expects people to keep selling at or below price they paid forever. We all recognize that would be silly, even for knives that are still in production. It makes sense too because if you can't replace the knife you sold for a similar amount then we don't expect you to sell below what you paid but instead below current MSRP if it exists. What about knives that are extremely difficult to get, like knives that are gone in seconds? Should such knives be sold at MSRP or below even though it might be impossible to replace them? Shouldn't the person selling such a knife be compensated in some way for selling this impossible to get knife? Is it better for the community that these knives are not sold at all because the person knows they can't replace them and is not willing to sell for MSRP, or that these knives are sold somewhere else e.g. IG, or that the knives are sold for more when there are many willing buyers? I don't know what the answers are, I have my opinions, but that is about it.
What logical fallacy are you talking about?
Jovidah
I'll make you a sponsor offer you can't refuse...
When you start a sentence essentialy pointing at the supposed ignorance of the younger generation it sounds a lot like an age-based appeal to authority... and a very disrespectful and denigrating one at that.
And that is why you did the boomer thing. Now I understand. Thanks.
I sincerely apologize to anyone who may have been offended; no offense was intended. I have been tainted by recent discussions with intelligent 20 somethings that have real holes in their education.
And since we are keeping track, your logical fallacy was the straw man that is unaware that a pure free market does not exist. Where does that fit in your moral hierarchy?
Can we all just agree it's ok to kick kittens into wood chippers if the kitten gets a fair cut of the take?
Carl Kotte
Senior Member
Yes!
