Not understanding what I'm feeling!

Discussion in 'Sharpening Station' started by Jeffrey McCue, Feb 12, 2019.

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  1. Feb 12, 2019 #1

    Jeffrey McCue

    Jeffrey McCue

    Jeffrey McCue

    Jeffro

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    Hello all. I'm new here. Have 100's of hours sharpening and I'm still very much a rookie. I have pretty good results and long as I stay off my 12k Shapton stone. I use a KD 1000/6000 and get the knives pretty sharp.

    When I go to the 12k it no longer feels right. Kinda skipping a little and the edge almost always dulls. Also I will feel the bur that I thought was gone by now roll over back and forth and the smallest of a "hairlike" metal strands break off and the knife is pretty dull then. It's like I'm breaking the edge off? I've tried light pressure, moderate pressure. Always very light contact going forward and the pressure comes when dragging the blade back.

    I use all kinds of knives but I specialize in Old German Wusthofs. I do great as long as I don't use that 12K stone? Any ideas what I'm doing wrong? I'm sure it's a rookie mistake. thanks in advance!
     
  2. Feb 12, 2019 #2

    Michi

    Michi

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    If you find that a knife gets more dull on a high-grit stone, the problem often is too much pressure. Try with extremely light pressure on your 12K stone. It might help.
     
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  3. Feb 12, 2019 #3

    Ruso

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    Any reason you want to finish on 12k stone? I dont see any benefits of doing so on a Wustoff unless you want to create a “mirror” polished bevel.
     
  4. Feb 12, 2019 #4

    galvaude

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    Forget about that 12k stone.

    IMO Wusthof and all the other soft steel are best left at 1000 or under for optimal use with stainless, some old carbon can take a 2000 grit edge well. They don't take acute edges well either so keep them thin behing the edge and put a 20 deg edge.

    FWIW I use a very broad guideline for kitchen knives (there are many exceptions)

    Soft SS (Victorinox, Whusthof, Henckels) --> 400 grit
    Higher quality stainless (think VG10, Ginsan, AUS10...) --> 1000 grit
    Soft Carbon (Sabatier, vintage wusthof) --> 2000 grit
    Hard japanese carbon --> 3000 and up
     
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  5. Feb 12, 2019 #5

    Michi

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    I don't see the point either.

    For a kitchen knife, which is meant to cut food (not test filament or beards), I get the impression that anything over 5000 or 6000 grit isn't any better and might, in fact, be worse. A knife that I've finished on a 5000 stone without stropping cuts tomatoes better than after stropping.

    Quite honestly, the answer might be "don't use the 12K stone".
     
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  6. Feb 12, 2019 #6

    vicv

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    If you find it doesn't cut as well after stropping try to lighten pressure or lower spine a tad. Stropping is so light it more cleans the edge than refining the scratch pattern even though some abrasive is used unless you're doing hundreds of strokes and that will dull your edge anyway.
    To the OP I agree with the others. Your 12k stone is only suitable for razors or some specialized woodworking tools. It's too fine for kitchen knives. Even if your sharpening is perfect and the edge is extremely sharp it will be a lousy cutter in the kitchen. The problem you're having is just that your fine and very hard stone is showing you burr that you did not properly remove with the previous stones
     
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  7. Feb 12, 2019 #7

    Jeffrey McCue

    Jeffrey McCue

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    Thank you all for the replies. I am consuming all of this amazing information it is greatly appreciated.
    I was simply trying to super-polish the edge making it more efficient (i thought) but I was wrong.
     
  8. Feb 12, 2019 #8

    Jeffrey McCue

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    When I strope a whustof on leather many times i too notice it doesn't cut as well. Now I know I'm not crazy. thank you
     
  9. Feb 12, 2019 #9

    Jeffrey McCue

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    Great information thank you so much. Mr. Vic I do have a question about what you have said. I understand you said "I was not properly removing the bur with the previous stones. So this means probably many things I could be doing wrong but do you think I just meed more passses on the 6K stone to remove the bur? Or just an improper angle allowing the bur to exist? Thanks again for all your help!
     
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2019
  10. Feb 12, 2019 #10

    Jeffrey McCue

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    Thank you all. I can see I've made many errors. I do use 100's and 100's of strokes. So stop that I am understanding? Also I will quit the 12K stone altogether as there is no need. I buy old knives that are beat up and fix them up grinding them a little and tuning them up. I have touched a Wusthof 4582 to a grinding wheel before and had them break like glass so I use much caution and ease when cutting them down. I use only very old wooden handle wusthof's (with the gold rivets in the handle) that I'm guessing are over 50 years old but they too are considered soft correct? I thought they were indeed very hard, I was so wrong! Lol. So now I'll stick to finishing with the 6K. Thank you all so much!
     
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2019
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  11. Feb 12, 2019 #11

    Xenif

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    Watch these to get an understanding of burr creation, removal.





    Heck watch all of Jons videos
     
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  12. Feb 12, 2019 #12

    vicv

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    You've probably got the burr so weak now that it'll just keep flipping back and forth. I'd go to your lowest grit stone and make several passes switching sides each time. Then raise the spine twice as high as you sharpened at and VERY lightly make a few edge leading strokes. That should remove the burr. Then a few more very light passes at original angle. For stropping yes hundreds of passes is two much. Ten max at very light pressure heel to tip at the same angle you sharpened at or slightly more angle edge trailing. If you did everything right this should be a nice sharp burr free edge. Until you can do this consistently do not move to a finer stone. I can pop arm hairs off above the skin without touching at this stage. 300-400 grit stone
     
  13. Feb 12, 2019 #13

    panda

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    that's because wusthof should only be sharpened to 1000 grit at the most. so 12k would be 12x finer grit than necessary.
     
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  14. Feb 12, 2019 #14

    Jeffrey McCue

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    I have watched many many youtube videos but never came across this gentleman. I will watch in great detail. Thank you!
     
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  15. Feb 12, 2019 #15

    Jeffrey McCue

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    I will try and try what you have suggested. I am clearly not getting my knives sharp enough with my first stone. And all the video's I've watched have never broken it down like you have! Thanks again Mr.Vic you have shined the brightest of lights for me. I appreciate you
    taking the time. It means a lot.
     
  16. Feb 12, 2019 #16

    vicv

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    No problem friend good luck. It just takes practice and determination. I've given up on sharpening free hand more than once only to try again. It's taken years of practice and I still have so much to learn. The way I look at it is what did people do before having 10k+ stones here? We had India and Arkansas stones. We were taught to sharpen with the coarse side then move onto the fine side. The fine side was 400 grit JIS! Why now the recommendation is to start at 1000 grit is a mystery to me. It's your time but to me it's a waste of it. Moving onto Arkansas stones was for advanced sharpeners and even a hard Arkansas is roughly 1k.
     
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2019
  17. Feb 12, 2019 #17

    lemeneid

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    If you watched burrfection previously, unlearn everything he’s taught you.
     
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  18. Feb 12, 2019 #18

    vicv

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    As much as he's given derision on here the man gets his knives sharp. Can't argue with that. And he's just having fun. Plus he doesn't teach technique or anything just sharpens stuff
     
  19. Feb 12, 2019 #19

    Cyrilix

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    At the end of the day, performance matters and people will do what generates that performance. If that means using a 1k or a 3k or a 5k, then that's perfectly okay.
     
  20. Feb 13, 2019 #20

    panda

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    you misunderstand, i meant dont go any higher than 1000. i think 400 is the right grit for the job.
     
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  21. Feb 13, 2019 #21

    Michi

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    To be clear, after stropping, my knife is objectively sharper. It cuts paper better than before the stropping, with less effort, a cleaner edge, and less noise. But it's worse at cutting a tomato than before the stropping.
     
  22. Feb 13, 2019 #22

    vicv

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    Probably rounded the edge a bit. Cuts smoother but less bite
     
  23. Feb 13, 2019 #23

    panda

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    This is exactly why I think paper cutting is such a useless test of sharpness for kitchen knives. So is arm hair shaving, plus it's gross.
     
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  24. Feb 13, 2019 #24

    Bert2368

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  25. Feb 13, 2019 #25

    Jeffrey McCue

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    Ok I understand now. thank you
     
  26. Feb 13, 2019 #26

    Jeffrey McCue

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  27. Feb 13, 2019 #27

    vicv

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    It's a great resource. His article on sharpening a razor the easy way was a revelation for me. It's how I do it now and it works. 6k king, autosol on denim, then diamond on leather. So smooth no need for high grit expensive stones! For shaving you want a rounded edge. I used to stop on a sigma 13k. Was so sharp was removing skin along with hair. Round the edge a bit and its smooth. With a knife you want a crisp edge though
     
  28. Feb 13, 2019 #28

    mack

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    I would never strop my kitchen knives. Never. I usually stop at 5k when sharpening free hand, anything higher than that is waste of time imho. When I'm sharpening with system (in my case: Bogdan), it absolutely makes sense to go up to 12K, if the steel allows it. You get a fine closed edge, which has the big advantage, that it lasts way longer. Way longer.

    I know, that those sharpening systems are discussed controversial, but for me it's the perfect way to get a scary sharp, long lasting edge.


    Mack.
     
  29. Feb 13, 2019 #29

    Jeffrey McCue

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    Thanks Mack. I'll be stopping much sooner. I'll also check your system out! ;-)
     
  30. Feb 13, 2019 #30

    Jeffrey McCue

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    Just wanted to let everyone know in the last couple days I've watched many videos as suggested. And read a wealth of articles provided and although I'm known for having much sharper knives than the "average Joe" I have a much better understanding on what's going on than I have learned the many decades prior. I must say I had taken in much information and applying it. As it turns out, I have kind of been sabotaging myself. I worked on 5 knives today 2 old ones and 3 stamped junkers. I sharpened everything in 20% of my previous time and the edges are more true and sharp than ever before.
    I have very much to learn but you guys have helped me a lot and I thank all of you for it!
     
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