Awesome. How were you sabotaging yourself?
Not understanding what I'm feeling!
- Thread starter Jeffrey McCue
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Jeffrey McCue
Jeffro
I had followed many myths, lies and untruths! Lol Here are just a few through the years. 1) all you need is a "steel" to sharpen a knife.... ever. 2) Always put pressure down on the knife when it goes forward 3) never drag a knife backwards on a stone 4) it takes 1000 strokes to sharpen a knife correctly 5) 11 degrees is the best angle to sharpen 6)25 degrees is the best angle But as of late I have #1) dulled my kitchen knives using a 12K stone and #2) Used way too many strokes allowing for inconsistencies in angles then basically polishing the "ok edge" into a dull edge. So these last two is what I have focused on since my posting here. I used a 400 to correct my angles and then a 1000 to polish and finish the bur removal. They are very sharp (I have a 6K that I would like to use but here they say its overkill so I shall not) Sorry there is three things. Probably the most important was the bur recognition(along with the very light pressure as a whole) and the gradual removal and the final super light stropping on the stone at the end. I had never done that. The bur I just kind of left to chance assuming with so many strokes it would take care of its self. I have much to learn but now I'm on a much better path to success. thank you.
Okay, let's take a step back and point out some of the things that aren't problems.
Sharpening on a 12k is not a problem, as long as you're sharpening well on a 12k. It should make your edge less toothy and should also refine it so that less downward force is required to initiate a cut, in theory. Obviously, if you aren't holding your angle correctly, other things can happen.
Burr removal on a higher grit stone is also not a problem. Higher grit stones cut more slowly so you won't make progress as quickly but you also won't make mistakes as quickly. Neither is actually a problem. This is personal preference.
Using 1000 strokes is not a problem, however if I were to use 1000 strokes on most stones, I would create a massive burr and waste a lot of metal. I guess it sort of is a problem, but not in the final result of making your knife sharp.
Leaving burr to chance is a problem and probably the biggest one. You have to verify that it's no longer there.
As to whether or not you should use your 6k and 12k stone, you should learn how to use them effectively, then compare the results of your cuts. It may be better, may be worse, depending on what you're trying to cut and your cutting motion.
Congrats on your improvement. It's a great feeling. Keep doing what you're doing and you'll keep seeing improvements. That 400 grit stone is why you didn't need to make 1000 strokes. It's good to get the edge set as quickly as you can. Then you just refine it
getting good with finer grit stones takes practice. a couple years ago i was getting max cutting performance at 3k and if i went any higher my knives would perform worse, especially on soft veg with tough skins (tomatoes, peppers). but once i learned to use (much much much much) less pressure i saw improvement. you really only want to remove metal with the first stone in your progression. after that you are simply polishing.
@Jeffrey McCue
Glad to hear you are improving.
Keep doing what works for you. Once you "master" one set of technique you can explore another options and see how they work for you.
At the beginning keep it simple, keep it consistent and enjoy your sharp edges.
Glad to hear you are improving.
Keep doing what works for you. Once you "master" one set of technique you can explore another options and see how they work for you.
At the beginning keep it simple, keep it consistent and enjoy your sharp edges.
Jeffrey McCue
Jeffro
Cyrilix thank you for the words of wisdom. as you have stated a 6k or 12k may not be a problem but I feel I am too loose with my skills makes it a problem as my cutting ability with the knife reduces drastically after the 12K stone. I will follow your advice and keep an open mind to the finer stones but I have indeed made great progress with a lighter touch, bur recognition and the omission of the finer stones. Toothy I know is not good. But I go from toothy to butter knife dull in short order! Lol Thank you for your help!
On the contrary toothy is very good. You want the edge to bit into the food you're cutting not slide on the surface. For a paring knife with a lot of in hand push cutting a high polish can be advantageous. Otherwise I believe 6k is max and a bit too much for general cutting tasks. For things like my filet and skinning knives I finish at around 320-400 grit. It just cuts better and stays sharp longer in my experience
Jeffrey McCue
Jeffro
Really that's amazing? "Sharp but toothy" So you are kind of making a serrated sharp knife then by using only the coarse stone. I have quite a few fillet knives that are pretty good quality from Finland in the 1960's-1980's era. I should be putting 400 grit edges on them you think? Filleting fish over the years has been my cause for appreciating and striving for a sharp tool. I'm known as "The fish cleaning guy."
Attachments
In my opinion yes. This is a good read
http://seamountknifeworks.com/js/web/viewer.html?file=articles/pdf/shapening.pdf
http://seamountknifeworks.com/js/web/viewer.html?file=articles/pdf/shapening.pdf
Jeffrey McCue
Jeffro
Yes it was good Vic. What diameter of rope do you think he might use for checking sharpness? And just try to slice it in two while its on a board with straight down pressure?
http://seamountknifeworks.com/articles.html
Read all the articles .There's a lot of good metallurgical info on there
Read all the articles .There's a lot of good metallurgical info on there
inferno
( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°) <*))))><
I'm gonna go against the grain here and suggest you can take any blade up to any grit you want.
Another question is how long it will hold that grit edge though
I have the 12k too. and I basically do alternating side "swiping" movements on it only.
I think its very important to do these swiping movements and also do alternating sides as the last ones on each stone. I only do about 10 on each side with the 12k. And thats coming off a 4-8k. I have no problems with burrs. And I dont "strop" on it.
Its a bit overkill for kitchen knives in general though. But fun. Since it gets so sharp you almost poop yourself.
look up sharpening with bob kramer for technique on those alternating swiping strokes.
Another question is how long it will hold that grit edge though
I have the 12k too. and I basically do alternating side "swiping" movements on it only.
I think its very important to do these swiping movements and also do alternating sides as the last ones on each stone. I only do about 10 on each side with the 12k. And thats coming off a 4-8k. I have no problems with burrs. And I dont "strop" on it.
Its a bit overkill for kitchen knives in general though. But fun. Since it gets so sharp you almost poop yourself.
look up sharpening with bob kramer for technique on those alternating swiping strokes.
I'm gonna go against the grain here and suggest you can take any blade up to any grit you want.
Another question is how long it will hold that grit edge though
I have the 12k too. and I basically do alternating side "swiping" movements on it only.
I think its very important to do these swiping movements and also do alternating sides as the last ones on each stone. I only do about 10 on each side with the 12k. And thats coming off a 4-8k. I have no problems with burrs. And I dont "strop" on it.
Its a bit overkill for kitchen knives in general though. But fun. Since it gets so sharp you almost poop yourself.
look up sharpening with bob kramer for technique on those alternating swiping strokes.
i agree. the hardness of the steel determines the angle you can sharpen at, not the grit. a soft steel sharpened at too acute an angle will roll the edge just as easily no matter what the final grit was.
i really think the issue that many people run into is that they actually roll their edge by pressing too hard with higher grit stones. the same pressure with a lower grit stone removes metal and creates a new edge, instead of rolling it, and that is the explanation for lower grits feeling sharper than higher grits. with good technique this doesn't happen, and you can go as fine as you like, but the key is that the more acute the angle, the lighter touch you need, and if you keep rolling the edge no matter how light your pressure, then you need to make the angle less acute.
This is a great thread. A lot of hidden sharpening tips here. While there are some great videos out there, they aren't able to show things like how much pressure is applied at each grit level. It's helpful to visualize what is happening to the edge with each pass, on each grit, with varying pressure. Because you can't see it, and a noob like me can't necessarily feel it.
Jeffrey McCue
Jeffro
Thanks inferno for your input, I'll look up Bob Kramer this afternoon.I'm gonna go against the grain here and suggest you can take any blade up to any grit you want.
Another question is how long it will hold that grit edge though
I have the 12k too. and I basically do alternating side "swiping" movements on it only.
I think its very important to do these swiping movements and also do alternating sides as the last ones on each stone. I only do about 10 on each side with the 12k. And thats coming off a 4-8k. I have no problems with burrs. And I dont "strop" on it.
Its a bit overkill for kitchen knives in general though. But fun. Since it gets so sharp you almost poop yourself.
look up sharpening with bob kramer for technique on those alternating swiping strokes.
Jeffrey McCue
Jeffro
You have described my edge rolling technique. I am trying to be very disciplined on the light touch. The caveman in me takes over sometimes though! Great info thanks!
Jeffrey McCue
Jeffro
AT57 I agree.........I have learned more here on this thread than I have watching days of knife video's? I feel fortunate.
inferno
( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°) <*))))><
2,5 minutes in he starts showing how to sharpen also listen to what he says. This is the video I recommend to friends and family.
inferno
( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°) <*))))><
I basically adjust pressure like this:
Removing lots of metal: very high pressure, basically as high as I can go and still work fast.
2k and up: lighter pressure. and when doing the finishing alternating swipes on each stone i basically gradually end up with only the weight of the knife.
finishing grits: very light and end on knife weight only. I only do alternating swipes on these stones.
Although I think stones over 3000 are a colossal waste of time and money for knives it should be pointed that Using a high grit stone for knives is not inherently bad. It depends on a lot of thing you do prior to that stone and how much time you spend polishing.
Some people go from 1k to high grit and spend very little time on it. Keeps te edge aggressive and helps deburr and clean up everything.
the problem most people have with high grit stones is they don’t keep the same angle and they wobble more due to the muted feel higher grit stones have.
Some people go from 1k to high grit and spend very little time on it. Keeps te edge aggressive and helps deburr and clean up everything.
the problem most people have with high grit stones is they don’t keep the same angle and they wobble more due to the muted feel higher grit stones have.
Jeffrey McCue
Jeffro
Inferno that guy just confused the heck out of me. He gave the various ways you can sharpen. But he goes against about everything i thought I learned here! He pressures the blade as it goes forward is what I think I understood and watched him do. How is he even getting a bur that would be a stropping action. Also he used 4 to 6 lbs of downward pressure which is what i was just supposed to get away from? He does everything opposite of what I thought we should do. I do realize that whatever works for each person is fine, but he is really promoting everything I've been trying to unlearn. Did I misunderstand him?
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inferno
( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°) <*))))><
I dont see what he shows could be confusing??
He pressures the blade extremely much on the low grit. you can see it flexing like crazy. go get stuff done. Thats how its done.
you get a burr doing both ways trust me. no need to do backwards stropping actions to get a burr!
allinall i think this is the best video and also double bevel basics.
i use the double bevel basics for removing steel fast and pretty much end with swipes on each stone.
if you do what any of these guys do then you will get a sharp blade. period.
I do jon broida first then kramer, then alternate sides kramer. then alternate sides low pressure kramer to finish.
You dont need to learn anything here from anyone. you need to teach yourself how YOU can get your knives sharp no matter what method. IE what works for YOU. These 2 guys shows what works for them and most other people do any of these techniques more or less. And many ended up there themselves without these teachers teaching them since these are good working intuitive methods that comes to mind naturally if you have a stone in front of you and you are trying to sharpen a blade on it.
simply do what works for you!
There is not much rolling involved when it comes to Japanese knives though. The edges are so hard they have a tendency to chip rather than roll over. Rolling usually occurs on softer knives like those wusthofs or henckels. Harder it is, the easier it is to chip which is why you should lower pressure a little a little after a few passes at higher pressure so you can get the knife a little sharper. Typically what I do is a full progression on high pressure with my finishing stone, then repeat the process with lower pressure. You’ll find you get quite the amazing edge that punches above its weight in terms of grit so you don’t really need super high grit stones, just really good technique.
inferno
( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°) <*))))><
exactly!
this a tradecraft. something you learn.
I can get a killer edge of a 220 stone. you just reduce pressure towards the end. it wont be as good as a 4k stone but better than any factory german edge ever produced so that still quite good imo.
its all about what you do with it! and its all up to you. thats what i have learned at least.
PRACTICE MAKES PERFECT. no kidding.
this a tradecraft. something you learn.
I can get a killer edge of a 220 stone. you just reduce pressure towards the end. it wont be as good as a 4k stone but better than any factory german edge ever produced so that still quite good imo.
its all about what you do with it! and its all up to you. thats what i have learned at least.
PRACTICE MAKES PERFECT. no kidding.
i don't disagree with any of that. i can get a knife shaving sharp on a 220 too. maybe "roll" is a confusing term. should i have said "round"?
i think we are all in agreement that good technique is essential to getting a good edge, and that grit has nothing to do with sharpness. angle does. grit has to do with material removal. so what i'm really saying is that coarse grit stones hide bad technique by constantly exposing fresh steel and creating a new edge, whereas fine stones reveal bad technique by removing just enough steel to round off an edge, without setting a completely new one.
and just to avoid confusing/insulting anyone, when i say "bad technique", i mean problems with wobble and pressure, which are both extremely difficult to control free handed. nobody is perfect, and one of the most fun aspects of sharpening is challenging ourselves to get incrementally better each time.
i think we are all in agreement that good technique is essential to getting a good edge, and that grit has nothing to do with sharpness. angle does. grit has to do with material removal. so what i'm really saying is that coarse grit stones hide bad technique by constantly exposing fresh steel and creating a new edge, whereas fine stones reveal bad technique by removing just enough steel to round off an edge, without setting a completely new one.
and just to avoid confusing/insulting anyone, when i say "bad technique", i mean problems with wobble and pressure, which are both extremely difficult to control free handed. nobody is perfect, and one of the most fun aspects of sharpening is challenging ourselves to get incrementally better each time.
Jeffrey McCue
Jeffro
Gman that makes a lot of sense to me.
Jeffrey McCue
Jeffro
I dont see what he shows could be confusing??
He pressures the blade extremely much on the low grit. you can see it flexing like crazy. go get stuff done. Thats how its done.
you get a burr doing both ways trust me. no need to do backwards stropping actions to get a burr!
allinall i think this is the best video and also double bevel basics.
i use the double bevel basics for removing steel fast and pretty much end with swipes on each stone.
if you do what any of these guys do then you will get a sharp blade. period.
I do jon broida first then kramer, then alternate sides kramer. then alternate sides low pressure kramer to finish.
You dont need to learn anything here from anyone. you need to teach yourself how YOU can get your knives sharp no matter what method. IE what works for YOU. These 2 guys shows what works for them and most other people do any of these techniques more or less. And many ended up there themselves without these teachers teaching them since these are good working intuitive methods that comes to mind naturally if you have a stone in front of you and you are trying to sharpen a blade on it.
simply do what works for you!
Iferno I can see i am trying your patience and i apologize for that. I started this thread because I have 100's if not 1000's of hours sharpening. I've put 30 hours in a week a couple weeks ago. I was at wits end as my 12K stone was dulling my knives. I was searching for solutions. Something was going wrong and after listening to everyone I'm convinced my "improper technique" with hundreds of passes with the same knife on the 12K stone I was just knocking the edges off. Everyone here kinda had the same theme going I thought. Then Bob Kramer shows up and puts a ton of pressure and reverses what I thought was the correct stroke as he sharpens going forward not on the drag stroke. I totally understand everyone does things different and I have to "find what works for me." Thats what got me here in the beginning because what I was doing wasn't working. Bob Knamers method I am making a knife much sharper in just a few strokes so I'm going to spend maybe 10 hours this weekend trying his method and see if I can be consistent with that. I see now in the beginning early stones you need to put that massive 7lbs of pressure like he does and as you go up or get a sharper edge lessen the pressure. I will work on this and appreciate all your input. Thank you.
You’re over thinking things and making things too technical, common mistake for a lot of people. Start from the beginning with basics. Consistent pressure, consistent strokes, consistent angles, and make sure the stone is flat. Work until you get the burr then flip it over and do that then slowly reduce the number of strokes and finish off with stropping with edge trailing strokes.
Most of the videos you see on YouTube by guys like Jon or Murray Carter are good, but I feel some things they do aren’t suitable or not explained well for beginners and that’s where mistakes happen. That’s why I emphasize consistency with all parts of the sharpening process, then when you’re more confident in reproducing the results, try to change a step and see if you notice a difference. That’s how you learn from this.
Jeffrey McCue
Jeffro
Galvaude that is exactly what I was doing. I am reworking my techniques and staying away from all my stones over 5k.
Thank you!
