Old Beater Meet New Beater

Kitchen Knife Forums

Help Support Kitchen Knife Forums:

stringer

Supporting Member
Joined
Mar 11, 2018
Messages
754
Reaction score
1,159
Location
Boston, MA
You know that feeling when you start getting bruises and cuts on your knuckles because you're favorite beater has been sharpened too many times?

IMG_20191210_121706.jpg


What can it mean? Only one thing. New knife day.
Kanehide TK 240
3 years old vs new.

IMG_20191210_113113.jpg


IMG_20191210_110627.jpg


IMG_20191210_100045.jpg

IMG_20191210_093356.jpg


IMG_20191210_095458.jpg


IMG_20191210_093543.jpg


IMG_20191210_093505.jpg


IMG_20191210_093332.jpg


IMG_20191210_095709_1.jpg
 

Dhoff

Senior Member
Joined
Dec 2, 2018
Messages
418
Reaction score
158
Location
Denmark
Looks great. I'm still amazed as a home cook that a knife can be used this much. My head knows, my heart does not.

What will you do with the old one mate?
 

Chefgibson

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jul 9, 2017
Messages
65
Reaction score
34
Be fun to reprofile the old one into a small slicer / line knife :rolleyes:
 

nonoyes

Well-Known Member
Joined
Apr 19, 2018
Messages
108
Reaction score
29
Wow. It appears that you've thinned the heck out of that thing, and yet you can still see in the dueling choils picture how quickly it gets thick above the edge, and how abruptly the bevel starts. Or am I deceived?

How was it performing other than banging knuckles?

Great pics, great demonstration. Thanks for sharing.
 

stringer

Supporting Member
Joined
Mar 11, 2018
Messages
754
Reaction score
1,159
Location
Boston, MA
Wow. It appears that you've thinned the heck out of that thing, and yet you can still see in the dueling choils picture how quickly it gets thick above the edge, and how abruptly the bevel starts. Or am I deceived?

How was it performing other than banging knuckles?
The choil shot is deceiving. The front 2/3 has been thinned dramatically. I know Ian doesn't like it, but in this case the front the front half of the knife has been thinned down to a true zero edge. The back 1/3 is not thinned nearly as much. I sharpen the knife pretty much flat on the stone. To finish it I add some convexity by shifting my finger pressure closer to the apex. Then I add about a 75 degree inclusive nanobevel. The performance is impressive. I would classify this knife OOTB as a light middle weight. Now the tip and front third performs like a really well tuned Sujihiki, a laser Gyuto for the middle third, and the heel has no problem with chicken bones. It really breaks my heart because it will be awhile before the new one is as broken in. But I was slicing a case of bread the other day and I literally bloodied my knuckles from repeatedly punching the cutting board with really crusty bread crumbs on the board.
 

MarkC

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jul 2, 2019
Messages
151
Reaction score
58
The choil shot is deceiving. The front 2/3 has been thinned dramatically. I know Ian doesn't like it, but in this case the front the front half of the knife has been thinned down to a true zero edge. The back 1/3 is not thinned nearly as much. I sharpen the knife pretty much flat on the stone. To finish it I add some convexity by shifting my finger pressure closer to the apex. Then I add about a 75 degree inclusive nanobevel. The performance is impressive. I would classify this knife OOTB as a light middle weight. Now the tip and front third performs like a really well tuned Sujihiki, a laser Gyuto for the middle third, and the heel has no problem with chicken bones. It really breaks my heart because it will be awhile before the new one is as broken in. But I was slicing a case of bread the other day and I literally bloodied my knuckles from repeatedly punching the cutting board with really crusty bread crumbs on the board.
You have owned a used a lot of knives since your first version of this knife, curious why you decided to buy another one of these.
 

stringer

Supporting Member
Joined
Mar 11, 2018
Messages
754
Reaction score
1,159
Location
Boston, MA
You have owned a used a lot of knives since your first version of this knife, curious why you decided to buy another one of these.
I need something tough, cheap, and easy to sharpen. Something I can leave out on the prep table all day without fear of someone stealing or breaking it. I get a new knife in this category about every 2-3 years. Here's the ones I've tried over the years:
Shun Classic
Global
Mac Pro
Misono UX10
Kikuichi TKC

Out of all these I would go with the Kanehide. I almost bought one of the Komakiri versions from Carbon but then I wouldn't have been able to do the side by side shot with the old one and the new one.
 

stringer

Supporting Member
Joined
Mar 11, 2018
Messages
754
Reaction score
1,159
Location
Boston, MA
How much use and sharpening does it take to wear down a knife like that in 3 years ?
It's sharpened about twice a week. I leave it out on the prep table for anyone to use so it takes a lot of abuse. I also keep it as thin as I can so there are often chips which means I have to grind farther than I would otherwise. But the thin geometry means it feels sharper longer. So there's a constant balancing act. I'm getting my new knife it's first trip to the stones today. I'll post some pics later.
 

HappyamateurDK

Well-Known Member
Joined
Mar 24, 2019
Messages
106
Reaction score
14
Location
Denmark
It's sharpened about twice a week. I leave it out on the prep table for anyone to use so it takes a lot of abuse. I also keep it as thin as I can so there are often chips which means I have to grind farther than I would otherwise. But the thin geometry means it feels sharper longer. So there's a constant balancing act. I'm getting my new knife it's first trip to the stones today. I'll post some pics later.
For an amateur like myself that kind of wear seem extreme. But with about 300 sharpenings it makes sense
 

stringer

Supporting Member
Joined
Mar 11, 2018
Messages
754
Reaction score
1,159
Location
Boston, MA
Ok here's some pics. I do 95% of my work sharpening with a Shapton Pro 1k and a Naniwa Super Stone 2k. I use a Shapton Glass 500 if there are chips. I thin a little each time. Focusing mainly on the tip. I make the bit next to the heel thicker to be able to withstand more abuse. Someone already managed to tip the poor little guy. Such is life.

IMG_20191215_150251.jpg


IMG_20191215_150310.jpg


IMG_20191215_150326.jpg

IMG_20191215_150349.jpg


IMG_20191215_150338.jpg
 

TSF415

Supporting Member
Joined
Sep 4, 2019
Messages
520
Reaction score
585
Location
San Francisco, CA
Ok here's some pics. I do 95% of my work sharpening with a Shapton Pro 1k and a Naniwa Super Stone 2k. I use a Shapton Glass 500 if there are chips. I thin a little each time. Focusing mainly on the tip. I make the bit next to the heel thicker to be able to withstand more abuse. Someone already managed to tip the poor little guy. Such is life.

View attachment 66882

View attachment 66883

View attachment 66884
View attachment 66885

View attachment 66886
Do you do the thinning with the 1kpro?
 

stringer

Supporting Member
Joined
Mar 11, 2018
Messages
754
Reaction score
1,159
Location
Boston, MA
Do you do the thinning with the 1kpro?
Yup. I thin and sharpen at the same time. I maintain as close to a zero bevel as possible for the front half of the knife. So when I sharpen the blade is laid flat on the stone at the tip. As I work my way down I bring the spine up off the stone a little at a time and then the heel is about 35 degrees inclusive. I raise a burr on one side then the other and then about 50 alternating edge leading sweeping rolling x strokes. I strop on a split leather paddle strop loaded with CrOx in between stones. Then go to the 2k. Same process. To finish I micro convex the apex and then apply a very chunky but extremely tiny micro bevel. Feather soft touch at about 75 degrees inclusive. If my sharpening gets out ahead of my thinning then I will notice a thickening behind the edge. Then I will bring the knife home and thin it on my Crystolon or a 250 or whatever. If the knife starts getting too thin then I will notice excessive chipping and rolling. Then I bring the knife home and drop down to maybe 800 grit and thicken everything up a little. I very rarely have to do this. Maybe once or twice per year. Less after the first year because by then I will be pretty dialed in.

Some knives require more work up front. This knife is pretty close to my ideal profile and edge geometry OOTB. So mostly I'll just be maintaining it.

Every knife is different. My Watanabe was way too thin and took me a while to dial in the right bevel angle, but now it's very stable. My Sabatier was way too thick and took a lot of thinning before I liked how it cut. It still weighs over 400 grams or something. My ShiHan had way too chunky a micro bevel for my tastes that took a lot of heavy thinning to get rid of. I also wanted the tip more nimble which required even more thinning. I've never done much of anything to my Ashi sujis. They just work. Get touched up about once per month. And they cut hundreds of pounds of boneless protein between sharpenings. Board contact is the ultimate edge killer.

I can maintain a working edge for about a month with just a ceramic rod, but I prefer the feeling of a straight off the stones edge so I sharpen my most used knife (this Kanehide) at least twice a week like if I have the time. And it doesn't take much time to keep it fresh with regular maintenance.
 

labor of love

Senior Member
Joined
Dec 15, 2011
Messages
8,851
Reaction score
2,562
I do a significant amount of thinning near the tip with shapton pro 1k after cerax 320.

Ive made mistakes in the past thinning near the tip w 200ish grit stones so I don’t do it anymore.
 

stringer

Supporting Member
Joined
Mar 11, 2018
Messages
754
Reaction score
1,159
Location
Boston, MA
I do a significant amount of thinning near the tip with shapton pro 1k after cerax 320.

Ive made mistakes in the past thinning near the tip w 200ish grit stones so I don’t do it anymore.
I've also made a few mistakes at the tip with the belt sander. So I don't do that anymore either.
 

big D

Well-Known Member
Joined
Oct 21, 2018
Messages
125
Reaction score
28
Location
chicago IL
Enjoy many of your posts, so thank you for them.
May I ask the heights of the old and new one? You often say you only lose about a mill a year, but I presume that is on a knife that you are not often removing somewhat serous chips. Curious on the true measurements in this specific case.
Thanks,
D.
 

stringer

Supporting Member
Joined
Mar 11, 2018
Messages
754
Reaction score
1,159
Location
Boston, MA
Enjoy many of your posts, so thank you for them.
May I ask the heights of the old and new one? You often say you only lose about a mill a year, but I presume that is on a knife that you are not often removing somewhat serous chips. Curious on the true measurements in this specific case.
Thanks,
D.
I think the new one is 51 and the old one is about 45. I'm off work for the next few days but I'll double check when I return. Chip repairs definitely lead to more wear.
 

dafox

Supporting Member
Joined
May 27, 2017
Messages
1,213
Reaction score
312
Location
Colorado
Yup. I thin and sharpen at the same time. I maintain as close to a zero bevel as possible for the front half of the knife. So when I sharpen the blade is laid flat on the stone at the tip. As I work my way down I bring the spine up off the stone a little at a time and then the heel is about 35 degrees inclusive. I raise a burr on one side then the other and then about 50 alternating edge leading sweeping rolling x strokes. I strop on a split leather paddle strop loaded with CrOx in between stones. Then go to the 2k. Same process. To finish I micro convex the apex and then apply a very chunky but extremely tiny micro bevel. Feather soft touch at about 75 degrees inclusive. If my sharpening gets out ahead of my thinning then I will notice a thickening behind the edge. Then I will bring the knife home and thin it on my Crystolon or a 250 or whatever. If the knife starts getting too thin then I will notice excessive chipping and rolling. Then I bring the knife home and drop down to maybe 800 grit and thicken everything up a little. I very rarely have to do this. Maybe once or twice per year. Less after the first year because by then I will be pretty dialed in.

Some knives require more work up front. This knife is pretty close to my ideal profile and edge geometry OOTB. So mostly I'll just be maintaining it.

Every knife is different. My Watanabe was way too thin and took me a while to dial in the right bevel angle, but now it's very stable. My Sabatier was way too thick and took a lot of thinning before I liked how it cut. It still weighs over 400 grams or something. My ShiHan had way too chunky a micro bevel for my tastes that took a lot of heavy thinning to get rid of. I also wanted the tip more nimble which required even more thinning. I've never done much of anything to my Ashi sujis. They just work. Get touched up about once per month. And they cut hundreds of pounds of boneless protein between sharpenings. Board contact is the ultimate edge killer.

I can maintain a working edge for about a month with just a ceramic rod, but I prefer the feeling of a straight off the stones edge so I sharpen my most used knife (this Kanehide) at least twice a week like if I have the time. And it doesn't take much time to keep it fresh with regular maintenance.
I can attest to the way stringer sharpens his knives, i have his old Kikuichi TKC 210 gyuto, it's one of my favorites, cuts great with a perfectly thin tip and thin behind the edge but holds up well.
 

TSF415

Supporting Member
Joined
Sep 4, 2019
Messages
520
Reaction score
585
Location
San Francisco, CA
Yup. I thin and sharpen at the same time. I maintain as close to a zero bevel as possible for the front half of the knife. So when I sharpen the blade is laid flat on the stone at the tip. As I work my way down I bring the spine up off the stone a little at a time and then the heel is about 35 degrees inclusive. I raise a burr on one side then the other and then about 50 alternating edge leading sweeping rolling x strokes. I strop on a split leather paddle strop loaded with CrOx in between stones. Then go to the 2k. Same process. To finish I micro convex the apex and then apply a very chunky but extremely tiny micro bevel. Feather soft touch at about 75 degrees inclusive. If my sharpening gets out ahead of my thinning then I will notice a thickening behind the edge. Then I will bring the knife home and thin it on my Crystolon or a 250 or whatever. If the knife starts getting too thin then I will notice excessive chipping and rolling. Then I bring the knife home and drop down to maybe 800 grit and thicken everything up a little. I very rarely have to do this. Maybe once or twice per year. Less after the first year because by then I will be pretty dialed in.

Some knives require more work up front. This knife is pretty close to my ideal profile and edge geometry OOTB. So mostly I'll just be maintaining it.

Every knife is different. My Watanabe was way too thin and took me a while to dial in the right bevel angle, but now it's very stable. My Sabatier was way too thick and took a lot of thinning before I liked how it cut. It still weighs over 400 grams or something. My ShiHan had way too chunky a micro bevel for my tastes that took a lot of heavy thinning to get rid of. I also wanted the tip more nimble which required even more thinning. I've never done much of anything to my Ashi sujis. They just work. Get touched up about once per month. And they cut hundreds of pounds of boneless protein between sharpenings. Board contact is the ultimate edge killer.

I can maintain a working edge for about a month with just a ceramic rod, but I prefer the feeling of a straight off the stones edge so I sharpen my most used knife (this Kanehide) at least twice a week like if I have the time. And it doesn't take much time to keep it fresh with regular maintenance.
Why don’t you start the thinning process with the sg500? (Asking as a newb) I thought it was supposed to be with coarse stone and then progress to make quick work of it.
 

M1k3

Senior Member
Joined
Jul 28, 2018
Messages
2,627
Reaction score
2,229
That's what he has at work. If he needs coarser it goes home.
 

stringer

Supporting Member
Joined
Mar 11, 2018
Messages
754
Reaction score
1,159
Location
Boston, MA
Why don’t you start the thinning process with the sg500? (Asking as a newb) I thought it was supposed to be with coarse stone and then progress to make quick work of it.
That's what he has at work. If he needs coarser it goes home.
It's all about balance. If you only focus on your primary bevel then your knife thickens behind the edge after 4-5 sharpenings and then you have to thin. I avoid that and thin a little each time. Just enough to keep the same geometry and compensate for how much I am removing from the edge.
And I do keep a 500 at work. It's badly dished and nearly wore out. I use it for fixing major damage and reprofiling coworkers knives. I don't need it for the Kanehide. I like the geometry in this case, I just want to maintain it. If you take the photos of this one and look at the one that's three years old you can see the progression of the thinning. Or at least the beginnings and the endings.
For major thinning, like grinding a blank into a knife or turning a mid weight cleaver into a laser I'll use something far more coarse. At my home workshop I have a belt sander, a Debado 250, King 320, Crystolon coarse, various diamond plates, etc. But once a knife is setup I'm highly proficient at maintaining it with very little. The Super Stone 2k is actually all I used for a lot of years. But if you don't have another stone to nagura it with it loads quick and stops cutting. So I added the Pro 1k to the rotation a few years ago. They keep each other flat and clean quite nicely.
 

stringer

Supporting Member
Joined
Mar 11, 2018
Messages
754
Reaction score
1,159
Location
Boston, MA
I checked my measurements. My guess was a little off. The new knife is about 48 and the old one is about 42mm height at heel.
 

big D

Well-Known Member
Joined
Oct 21, 2018
Messages
125
Reaction score
28
Location
chicago IL
Thank you for remembering and taking the time to measure.
Appreciated
D.
 
2
Top